Talk:Spain in World War II

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Gibraltar, which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the economy, geography, history, languages, politics and cultures of Gibraltar. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details.

Spain Portal This article is part of WikiProject Spain which aims to to expand and organise information better in articles related to the history, languages, and cultures of Spain. Please participate by editing the article, or visit the project page for more details.

	This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Additional information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related task forces (nations and regions): Spanish military history task force Related task forces (periods and conflicts): World War II task force

[edit] Franco and the Jews

The section on Franco and the Jews is rather POV, sufficiently so that I'm not going to jump in right now and try to clean it up. However, when someone next decides to work on it, here is some useful material. Much of this was previously in the article on Franco, but it really didn't belong there. Someone else cut it; I came here as a more appropriate place to restore it, but this is more of a mess than I want to tangle with, so here it is for someone to work with: - Jmabel | Talk 04:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[Cut material that has now been factored into the article]

If the article is wrong and you have evidence or sound references - or better references - then please "tangle with it" if only to add a caveat. Since I drafted some of this article, some good contrary material has surfaced, so please have a go. Folks at 137 07:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, Here's the edit where I merged this in. So far, I haven't touched any other sections. - Jmabel | Talk 22:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Franco and Mussolini

According to Franco's own autobiography, he also met with Italian leader Benito Mussolini at Hitler's request in the hope that Mussolini could persuade him to enter the war. However Mussolini was not into it due to the recent string of defeats his forces were facing in North Africa and the Balkans. At one point Franco asked him, "Duce, if you could get out of this war, would you?" At that point Mussolini raised his arms and said, "If only I could."

AFAIK, Franco only left Spain during the WW2 to meet Hitler in Hendaye. I have never heard about Mussolini visiting Spain, so I doubt that Mussolini and Franco ever met in the same place. --Error 22:16, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

They definitely did meet. Not sure when it was or where, but photos exist: [1] [2] [3]

One of the pics has 1937 in the URL. But es:Francisco Franco gives a placename. --Error 14:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First Paragraph

I have edited out the word "significant" because this is just wrong. There was no significance in Spanish involvment in the war on both sides. It was minor. Surely, it's heart warming to think that a nazi country did something significant for the allies, considering that NOW we all know who was good and who was evil back than. But c'mon, it is not significant at all. Ko Soi IX 15:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you're right. Although it depends of course on what standard we're using—for a neutral country, I'd say that spearheading the Liberation of Paris is significant enough. Albrecht 16:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I would have to disagree. One company, in whatever battle it participated, spearheaded, led or whatever, is far too small. Also, Spain's contribution to the Axis was much greater than to the Allies, but it is listed as "considerable" (in my opinion, it was negligible, but I don't want to argue about it), while the minor contribution to the Allies is marked as "significant". This may lead a reader unfamiliar with the situation to believe that Spain did more to help the Allies than the Axis. Thus I am removing the word "significant" again. With respect, Ko Soi IX 18:37, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, I basically agree that the introduction needs a due sense of proportion regarding which side Spain actually aided. But I have to emphasize that Spain was not a combatant—one company doesn't seem like much (and the 9th Armoured wasn't by any means the only Spanish formation—thousands of Republican exiles fought in the French army in 1940, Spanish Communist officers commanded Soviet troops in the East, and the Foreign Legion was packed with Spaniards), but how many companies did the other neutrals commit? What troops did Portugal, Ireland, and Sweden throw into the scales? Even the majority of Allied nations cannot claim the distinction of helping to roll back the Nazi hold over Europe, let alone liberating Paris—where were the Saudis; where were the Liberians; where were the Cubans, Guatemalans, Costa Ricans and Bolivians? We shouldn't trade one misconception for another. Albrecht 19:49, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Sweden may have been neutral, but it is doubtful that Germany could sustain it's war machine without swedish iron ore. There were only four allied countries that contributed SIGNIFICANTLY to the war effort - USSR, USA, UK, China. All other allies, be they "real" (like Poland, France or Canada), or "phony" (like Liberia, Guatemala etc), contributed only a small fraction to the war effort. For instance, the Soviet Union is credited with taking out at least 75% of Germans and their European allies and up to a 1/4 of the Japanese. Certainly, compared to that, even the significance of the US war effort could be questioned, and they were the second largest allied contributor. With respect, Ko Soi IX 20:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, that's all certainly true, but I imagine someone reading this article will already know enough about the topic to realize that we're not comparing Spain to the U.S., the UK, or the Soviet Union! Albrecht 20:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, as long as we don't claim that Spain's input into the war (on whatever side) was significant, the article works in my opinion. With respect, Ko Soi IX 21:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)