Talk:Soviet War Memorial (Tiergarten)

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I hope my additions (which are mostly from memory) are correct, feel free to edit out errors. It would be good if someone could provide a translation of the inscription. Andreas 14:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am getting it translated. Adam 01:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am told it means: "Eternal glory to the heroes who fell in battle with the German fascist occupiers for the freedom and independence of the Soviet Union." Adam 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - I added that to the description. Andreas 12:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Guards

The former text reference stated that Soviet guards were routing to and from the memorial "using a side-door of the Brandenburg Gate to get into the western sector at the time of changing of the Guard."

This is incorrect. The memorial stands in Tiergarten district, but Brandenburg Gate stands entirely in the area of Mitte district, which belonged to the Soviet sector. The actual district border which later became first, part the sector border, later, the state border between West-Berlin and the GDR, run about 50 meters westwards from the Gate (in an arched path).

When the sector borders were closed (Berlin Wall), this area was seamlessly closed.The whole building of the Brandenburg Gate was surrounded by the heavily patrolled East German border strip and relatively far (25-50 meters) from the Wall. The Gate, as a grotesque contrast to its name, remained a restricted area and closed, uncrossable in any way, until the fall of the Berlin Wall. After the 13th August, 1961, it was not a crossing point anymore. There was absolutely no crossing, not even for allied military personnel.

There was no point to use any part of the Gate because one would just arrive into the same East German border area, without even approaching the actual border (which lied on the other side of the Wall). There were only a few service/repair "doors" in the Wall (small, slideable concrete panels actually) used by East German border troops to climb out and back (not walk through) to the Western side of the Wall, in order to make repair works. The idea as described by the quoted text is presumably fictional.

The Wall itself stood on East German soil (within the district boundaries of Mitte) and this part of it run totally closed from the river Spree to the next crossing point, Checkpoint Charlie, at the intersection of Zimmerstrasse/Friedrichstrasse.

Soviet military guard units for the memorial used Checkpint Charlie to enter the Western sectors (American then British), following a strict route, without any stopping, in armored patrol cars. Allied forces could move freely in each others' sectors but they were obliged to check in at allied checkpoints when crossing the sector borders, especially between the Soviet and the Western ones. The area of the memorial was fenced by barbed wire to prevent Soviet guards from defecting.

Therefore, the referred part has been edited out from the article.

[edit] Red Army

I believe at the time of the battle the VVS was not an independent arm, it was under control of the Red Army (like the USAAF was at the time). If that is wrong then I will correct the link. I don't think many members of the Soviet navy were involved. :-) Andreas 16:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist"

The monument has often been referred to as the Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers and varians thereof in reference to the behavior of the Red Army. [1] I'm just wondering whether it would be a good idea to mention this.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 16:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I have heard that quib too. Not sure if it qualifies under Wikipedia guidelines (original research and all that), and I am sure a lot of people would get very upset if it got entered. Andreas 16:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Telegraph article cited doesn't say which Soviet memorial is called "Tomb of the Unknown Rapist." It may be a reference to the Treptower Park memorial, which is also a cemetery. No-one is buried at the Tiergarten memorial. Adam 00:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always heard it in reference to the Tiergarten one (as I live in Berlin, I did not learn this from the Telegraph, I merely provided the link as an example). I suppose it doesn't matter that no one is buried there, as the phrase is, after all, a joke. I suppose it's possible that the term may have first arisen with the Treptower Park memorial, but as saying this in East Berlin would land you in prison, but would not in West Berlin, the term might have come to mean the Tiergarten one. The Soviet guards at the memorial and the Soviet processions to it from behind the Wall weren't greeted terribly warmly by West Berliners.  ProhibitOnions  ^(T) 00:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That is all fair comment, but here, here and here are sources which refer specifically to East Berlin or Treptower Park. I can't find a reference which links specifically to Tiergarten. ("Grabmal des unbekannten Vergewaltigers" gets no Google hits at all). PS what have you got against onions? Adam 01:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)