Talk:Southern Lithuania

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Hmmm, the history section is seriously underrepresented here. Similarily to other articles on Lithuanian post-WWI claims, after reading it I still know nothing of what actually was this Southern Lithuania. Was it a Lithuanian claim? Or a unit of administrative division? If so, then of what state? This article needs both cleanup and details - badly!

Also, the geographical part of it is... well... I could understand it, but to a reader unaccustomed with the topic it would completely uninformative, I'm afraid. Finally, the author mentioned that the region had a good railroad network - in this I seriously doubt. The region has bad railroad net even now (even by Polish or Belarusian standards), and the railroad net in 1920, during the PBW, was no better. Does the author suggest that the situation was different in 1918?

All in all, I'm adding a cleanup and attention tags. Perhaps someone could spend an hour or two to improve this article. Halibutt 12:41, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

It is about administrative unit of Lithuanian Province (one of three such units, others being Vilnius government precinct and Kaunas government precinct (one map of this province is also the map of Lithuania in 1918 you used once to draw maps on supposed claims)), as the map at the bottom of article shows. The map also shows borders of the government precincts and such; the map is not the best but anyone is welcome to draw the better one. As for description of borders in words, I guess it is impossible to describe it well enough for an outsider anyways. Lithuanian province was established in 1918 July in part of Oberost territories by Germans. History section currently is only about aftermath of WW1 and the fate of this territory (the northern half, north of Nemunas, according to 1920 Lithuanian-Russian peace treaty, left to be claimed as part of Vilnius region, while the southern part (including capital Balstogė) not claimed by Lithuania). The reason why the history of establishment is not written is because I don't know if Southern Lithuania existed as a subdivision of Oberost prior to the creation of Lithuanian Province, or if it was created at the same time as Lithuanian Province. As for railroad network, I based this on the fact that I have a hsitorical map and it shows a denser railroad network in the territory than in other two government precincts. It might be so that part of railways were destroyed in WW2 or demontated later (narrow gauge), but if you know for sure taht in 1920 situation was bad then you can delete that sentence. This is not' and article about claim by the way, but about administrative unit (which actually existed during World War 1, it was created by Germans, that is why German name "Litauen Sud" is given too; after WW1 the unit was abolished and in history section it says what was the fate of the territory of Southern Lithuania government precinct). This is stated in article itself too. DeirYassin 13:06, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

After your recent edits I added the {{disputed}} tag. To remove it we should:

1. find a proof that the area of the Ober-Ost was indeed to be transfered to Lithuania and not to Belarus (as planned by the Germans) or to Poland (as it eventually was)
2. find a proof that the unit of administrative division of German military administration was indeed some quasi-Lithuanian state and that Lithuanian was one of its state languages
3. that there was some government established there and not simply the administration

As to the railroad net - there were two major lines in the area back then: one linking Warsaw with Moscow and the other one linking Warsaw with Petersburg. Even now the railroad net is underdeveloped there. Especially that the Russian Empire was way behind such states as Prussia or Austria-Hungary in railway construction. In Poland in every single train there is a railroad map and you can very precisely draw the borders between the partitions. While I couldn't find this map anywhere in the web, there's a similar map of major lines only ([1], other map [2]), which also gives the hint as to the general idea. And the map reports the situation some 85 years after the partitions ended... All in all, I find the remark about the dense railroad absolutely incredible. Halibutt 06:18, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

What I know is that Lithuanian Province was established in the area in July 1918 which included these three government precincts. I don't know the real plans of Germans at the time. You can change government to administration if you can't find proof, I am not sure here either, I just mixed myself because of my not great English (I tend to call any ruling body "government"). As for state language, I don't know for sure (and it is not written that state langauge was Lithuanian in the article now), but on the map in question Lithuanian is used together with German and it is also explained that German names of some smaller towns were changes from being direct translations of Polish names to being direct translations of Lithuanian names (in Lithuanian speaking areas of Lithuanian Province). Also, Lithuanian names ar egiven together to German only for cities of Lithuanian Province, and not for example Lithuania Minor (e.g. there is no Lithuanian name for Memel), so it is not just Lithuanian map or such - yet at the same time Lithuanian names are given to cities in Lithuanian province which did not speak Lithuanian, such as Bialystok, and no Belarussian or Polish names are given anywhere. Maybe Germans tried to get Lithuanian patriots on their side. Anyways, I guess that is not enough proove, maybe there weren't official languages at all, therefore it is not stated that there were. But I think it is a prove that Lithuanian was used together with German at least for geography - maps, city names and such; that is why both names are used now separated by slash. As for railway network, you can remove the line - the networks seems to have more railways than ones which you amed, but yes, it is muuch scarcer than say East Prussian one. DeirYassin 07:09, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust the maps too much, see this thingie for instance :) Anyway, I asked User:Dirgela for help, maybe he'll be able to clarify a bit. Halibutt 13:03, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the German name of Litauen Sud be translated rather as Lithuania South or even hyphenated to Lithuania-South? Halibutt 11:16, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

As I said, I do not speak German, but that map has both German and Lithuanian inscriptions, Lithuanian was "Pietinė Lietuva", which means Southern Lithuania. As for maps, map of Belorussian National Republic I think shows it's claims and claims are a historical thing too. DeirYassin 13:55, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

And here's the point: you can never be sure which map shows the claims and which shows the actual state of affairs. Pre-WWII Lithuanian maps are quite a good example. Halibutt 14:34, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Well, this map also had an explaination; I saw an exactly similar map in the place you gave me a link to, Lietuvos sritis is mentioned there too. Sritis means more or less the same as province; as explaination near the map in book confirms, it was a province estabilished by Germans in 1918 July in part of Ober Ost territories. Explaination is not on the map by the way, it is at the other page of map and written in book itself as a comment of map. If someone else knows more or has more documents on this matter, he/she is able to add more information. DeirYassin 15:25, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I question the supposed German form of Litauen Sud. First, German for "south" is Süd, not Sud. Second, the normal German would be Südlitauen. Litauen-Süd seems very strange -- does anyone have a source for this? LuiKhuntek 04:07, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed tag

I have removed the disputed tag from the article as there appears to be no dispute going on concerning the article. The only major problem I see with the article at the moment is that none of the information is cited, leaving it unverifiable. Wikiped is based off of verifiability, so if someone could provide sources for the information in the article, it would help very much. Cowman109^Talk 01:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)