Talk:Southern Cone

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Are both Aymara and Quechua spoken in this region? I think not. --N0thingness 07:38, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

They are spoken in Argentina and Chile. Mariano(t/c) 08:52, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

isn't this article wikified already?

nope they are not spoken in Argentina

and Paraguay is not a part of the Souther cone nor in geograohical nor cultural terms i'll delete it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.16.20.183 (talk • contribs).

In northern Argentina and Chile Aymara and Quechua are spoken. Also, Paraguay is part of the Cono Sur. See Spanish article. Mariano(t/c) 10:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil (or part of it) is not integrant of Southern Cone

Officially Brazil don't recognize itself as part of "Southern Cone". Brazil cannot to be separated to be part of that racist geographical "concept", it is continuous, undividable. Racist because it try to invent an false "white" and "european" separation in South America -- well that is impossible to apply to Brazil.

The southern brazilian region is almost so mixed like the entire Brazil. There are many german and italian descendants but the are many african and native descendants too.

The mixed Brazilian people is very different from the uruguaians, paraguayans and argentines. Maybe only in Uruguay there are few african descendants.

That "concept" Southern Cone smells prejudice (neonazism or fascism).

Whatever. Brazil is not part of it.

I don't know what you mean with Racism. You can't denied that the south of Brazil was populated with more European immigrants that the north. A clear example of that is the Oktober fest, wich is celebrated in the South of Brazil. I truly don't consider the concept of Southern Cone racist, and in any case, that has little to do with the fact of Southern Brazil being part of it. Mariano(t/c) 10:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The southern part of Brazil IS REALLY part of the Southern Cone. The geographic position, the temperate natural conditions and the cultural features are determinant for including the southern part of Brazil in the southern cone. The inhabitants of these area recognize themselves as part of the Southern Cone. There is no "neonazism" concept. Fsolda 20:39, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have already explained below why I do not see it as appropriate to include any part of Brazil. Certainly there is no "neonazism" concept: in that I agree with you. Fsolda has stated that there is no definition of the Southern Cone; I have provided a reasonable one which does not include any part of Brazil. Further, Fsolda removed the tag questioning why Bolivia isn't included without providing any reference. Ringbark 23:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[Ecos14] – please, someone denounce this page. It is racist! See this paragraph:

In contrast to most of Latin America, the populations of Argentina and Uruguay are composed in their majority by people of white European descent, with relatively small numbers of people who are of visibly mixed race; mestizos and mulattos. They also retain almost no indigenous Amerindian population, and in Uruguay's case the indigenous population is now extinct.

It's a big lie: the majority of Argentines are indigenuos-mixed (just see the very dark eyes and hair) and the are many Uruguayans mulatos.

The author try to "steal" part of Brazil with the false (and racist) theory the Southern Brazilian is "european" like (sic) Argentine. Very false. Southern Brazil is almost so mixed as the rest of the country, with many blacks and mulatos. The european ascestry in Southern Brazil are other than european ascestry of Uruguay or Argentine. In the 3 most shouthern Brazilian States, Portugueses, Germans and Polishs are the majority – and São Paulo is most mixed State of Brazil (!), with Japanese, Italian, Arab and many other foreigner ancestry. The european ancestry in Argentina are basically Spaniards and Italians.

In the World War II Argentina, ally of the Hitler until his death, had plans to invade and take the Southern Brazil, if the Nazis won. It seems that offensive desire on Southern Brazil exist even today.

The ancestry is not determinant, since Uruguay, Argentina and Chile has many indigenous communities. The climate, the geographic position and the standard of living are determinants. The foreign ancestry in Argentina also includes Germans (including the president Néstor Kirchner) and also Welsh communities, in the south. Blacks and mulattos, according the last census, are less than 30% of the people in the southern Brazil - in Santa Catarina, less than 10%.

[Ecos14] Lies, lies, lies. The african and indigenous ancestry in the south of Brazil is not only 30%. The people are so mixed that is almost impossible to say it is only 30%. Even people with light skin are generally mixed. Only some towns have a majority of "pure" whites, like some german-descent ones (and only in Rio Grande do Sul State). The majority of Southern Cone habitat is andean. Brazil don't have nothing andean. The German ancestry in Brazil is very more present than in Argentina (most indigenous, Spanish and Italian) -- My God, you seems a racist, seems a nazi... You known nothing about Brazil, little Hitler.

Ecos 14, "little Hitler" is the bitch of your mother. You don't know anything about Argentina, Uruguay (is the people from Uruguay "andean"???), didn't study the history of these regions - if so, you wouldn't say these lots of shit. The question about of the southern cone is NOT RACIAL!!!! Do you understand??? THE RACE IS NOT DETERMINANT!!!! The fact is:
  • Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, Paraná and São Paulo are NON-TROPICAL places, whith temperate climate, while most of Latin America has a tropical climate.
  • While Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, Guyana, Suriname, Paraguay and most of Brazil has a MEDIUM HDI, São Paulo, Santa Catarina, Rio Grande do Sul, Uruguay, Argentina and Chile has a HIGH HDI. Paraná is an exception, but most of the major cities such as Curitiba, Londrina, Maringá and Foz do Iguaçu has the HDI higher than 0.800.
  • About the racial question, study the statistics. According to IBGE, afro-brazilians (black and mulattoes) are 28% in the state of São Paulo (people with full european ancestry are 70%), 24% in the state of Paraná, 9% in Santa Catarina and 11% in Rio Grande do Sul. In Uruguay, people of african ancestry are about 4%. In Argentina, 97% has at least one european ancestry (85% has full european ancestry). In Chile, 65% has indigenous ancestry and only 30% has full european ancestry - but Chile shares the temperate climate and high HDI with Argentina, Uruguay and southern Brazil. This is the reason because the ancestry is not determinant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fsolda (talk • contribs) 15:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] More about Brazil not being part of the Southern Cone

Although I may question the reasoning behind the previous comments, I support the view that Brazil is not a part of the Southern Cone. The Anglican Church, while admittedly a small voice in South America, does not view Brazil as part of the Southern Cone. Generally, the Anglican Church follows local views on such things. The province of the Southern Cone as described in Iglesia Anglicana del Cono Sur de las Americas includes Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay. Brazil is a separate province - see Igreja Episcopal Anglicana do Brasil for this.

I cannot comment as to the reasons that the various sovereign governments have, but the fact that Spanish is an official language of every country of the Southern Cone while Portuguese is an official language in Brazil. This in itself also forms a natural division between the countries. Therefore, I am reverting the article to one which does not claim any part of Brazil as a part of the Southern Cone. Ringbark 10:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Since the Southern Cone is a geographical concept (and not political), the four most southern states of Brazil may be included in this region without prejudice. The natural features, such as the subtropical temperate climate (and not properly tropical) and also the standard of living of this region, similar to Uruguay, Argentina and Chile, are reasons for including this region in the southern cone. Bolivia and Peru has no natural, cultural or social features for being included in the region. Fsolda (talk • contribs) 03:02, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

argum::Some citations in the media including Brazil in the southern cone:

So, it's true the fact of the inclusion of Brazil sometimes in the Southern Cone. If only an entire country may be included in a region, then northern Brazil cannot be included in Amazonia. Fsolda 12:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
On the other hand, below I list some references which exclude Brazil from the Southern Cone. Many organisations seem to produce newsletters which are about "Brazil and the Southern Cone" - this tells me that while they recognise the Southern Cone, they also recognise that Brazil is not a part of it. On the other hand, I'm not looking to have a "my link list is better than your link list" sort of dispute.
I'm also disappointed that Fsolda sees fit to remove the link to the Anglican province, possibly because it didn't support his opinion about the Southern Cone. Ringbark 21:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I think the Anglican Church is not a major organ for defining what belongs to a geographic part and what not, since it is a very minoritary religion in the Southern Cone and also every world. The Roman Catholicism is highly dominant in all these countries. However, it's a fact which the southern Brazil is sometimes included in the southern cone and sometimes not included - both versions must be included in the article. The southern Brazil has the same characteristics of Chile, Uruguay and Argentina: medium-high standard of life, below the Tropic of Capricorn, high european influence and temperate climate - the states of Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul also have snow during the winter. If the southern Brazil cannot be included in the Southern Cone, then the northern Brazil cannot be included as part of Amazonia. Fsolda 23:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the Anglican Church is not a major body in South America; nevertheless the fact that they name their province after the Southern Cone does make it significant. Also significant is the fact that the province was founded by a different body to the Brazilian province. I further stand by my original assertion that the Southern Cone can also be defined linguistically. I don't see any merit in your claim that excluding Southern Brazil means that Northern Brazil can't be in Amazonia. Probably we need input from others on this point: at the moment I can't see that you will ever be happy to exclude Brazil while I won't be happy to include it. Ringbark 00:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Ringbark, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. So, we need to place facts, independently if we would be happy or not. The fact is: Argentina, Chile and Uruguay are always included in the Southern Cone, and the southern Brazil is sometimes included (and sometimes not). The question about the Anglican Church in the southern cone: it didn't include Brazil because Brazil is not "fully" in the southern cone. But if the southern states of Brazil and even the São Paulo State would be a separate country, certainly this country would be always part of the southern cone. The Anglican Church also refers improperly to Peru as part of the southern cone, while Peru doesn't share any feature with the other countries in southern cone: it's a poor country, fully placed above the tropic of Capricorn (look to the map!), and it has very low european influence in comparison with Brazil, Chile, Argentina and Uruguay. Fsolda 02:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Please don't remove the Anglican link again. If the province is called the Province of the Southern Cone, then it is an appropriate link. If you wish to furnish an equivalent Catholic link, I won't delete that. Ringbark 13:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
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