Talk:South Beach
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[edit] Nightlife Section
right now, the article contains this text:
"According to magazines such as The New Times and Ocean Drive, South Beach has replaced Los Angeles and New York City as the United States' most popular nightlife spot."
So lets review that statement: based on two magazines which are both located in Miami and have provided no research or proof, South Beach is the most popular nightlife spot in the united states? Don't you think that the Miami New Times and Ocean Drive magazine have a vested interest in saying Miami is the most popular nightlife spot? Don't you think New York Magazine or Time Out New York have said similar things about New York City being the most popular nightlife spot? This quote fails the NPOV test, as well as failing to cite references, so I am going to remove the text.
Miami does have a big nightlife scene, but to say they are more popular than NY and LA? I need more proof than two obviously pro-Miami publications.
[edit] Gay Mecca section
Jaranda yanked the 'Gay Mecca' section for lack of citation. That's fine and all but the rest of this article is also not cited. Like for example the entire "History" section, which is full of specific assertions. Should we yank the whole article because of that or just the part about gay people? It would be nice if somebody could find citations for some of the statements asserted in the paragraph that he removed because I thought it was a good paragraph. Mostly. A little NPOV but I think it can be fixed with citations and some editing. Doesn't seem to make sense or to be very NPOV to just throw away good copy that's mostly truthful and verifiable just because it's about gay people. (Sobesurfski 18:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC))
- It has to do with double standard. We don't refer to Yellowstone, Las Vegas or Islamorada as being "straight meccas". - Marc Averette 04:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- The entry on Little Italy is an example of an NPOV article on a concentration of one demographic in a specific geographic location. Like it or not, South Beach really is known throughout the world for its gay population, and also as a gay-friendly tourist destination. It's POV to ignore such a commonly-accepted aspect of South Beach. I write this as a (straight) resident of South Beach. (Sobesurfski 11:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC))
- Again with the double standard. I guess we need to go through every place that isn't recognized as "gay" listed throughout Wikipedia and list them as "straight" places. Pretty big task. - Marc Averette 13:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- That's very POV. The article mentions that South Beach appeals to European tourists. Do we remove that because every other place entry in Wikipedia doesn't mention that the place is NOT a European tourist destination? That's ridiculous. Removing the reference to gay tourism while retaining references to other groups is POV. South Beach is known for its appeal to the gay demographic, that's just a fact. reference, reference, reference. Highlighting the appeal of South Beach to European tourists and the fashion industry but whitewashing away its connection to gay culture is very POV. (Sobesurfski 15:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC))
- But every large city has a gay website Gay Orlandoo, Gay Tampa, Gay Jacksonville, Gay Atlanta, Gay Daytona Beach, Gay Savannah... etc. - the list is practically endless. Should we list all these places as 'popular gay tourist destinations'? According to their gay websites, they are. Do you see what I'm getting at? Gay culture is everywhere. What makes Key West and Southbeach stand out? A few more gay tourists than the national average? At what point do we decide that it's a gay place? Are there more gay tourists than straight ones? I seriously doubt that, since both destinations attract people from all over the world, whether gay or straight. - Marc Averette 15:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- Some clear analogies here are Provincetown, Massachusetts and Key West, Florida, both of which are also known specifically as gay tourism destinations. Both towns, like South Beach, are listed in the Gay tourism article.
- From the Provincetown article: "For those who follow the gay travel and event circuit, Provincetown is currently a destination of choice during the week surrounding the July 4th holiday. The town is successful enough to now offer two full series of events that compete during "Circuit Week" for best boat cruise, most elaborate dance event, and most famous DJ - and for tourist dollars."
- From the Key West article: "PrideFest is seven days of events, presented by the Gay and Lesbian Community Center of Key West the first week in June. The schedule includes the Pride Follies talent extravaganza; contests to select a Mr., Ms. and Miss PrideFest; parties, a tea dance; and the PrideFest Parade down Duval Street. Key West was the first American city to openly recruit gay tourists."
- Following both of those cues, the South Beach article needs a paragraph about specific events that can be referenced, such as White Party and Winter Party Festival, as well as the gay & lesbian film festival and the numerous local businesses that appeal to the gay demographic. It's just very POV to omit such a defining characteristic from the South Beach entry.
- This is a funny thing to debate, since I'm straight instead of gay and I'm a resident instead of a tourist. But serously man, if you walk around South Beach you see rainbow flags everywhere. It's part of South Beach. It's POV to omit such a fundamental part of the South Beach DNA from the article. (Sobesurfski 21:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC))
- But every large city has a gay website Gay Orlandoo, Gay Tampa, Gay Jacksonville, Gay Atlanta, Gay Daytona Beach, Gay Savannah... etc. - the list is practically endless. Should we list all these places as 'popular gay tourist destinations'? According to their gay websites, they are. Do you see what I'm getting at? Gay culture is everywhere. What makes Key West and Southbeach stand out? A few more gay tourists than the national average? At what point do we decide that it's a gay place? Are there more gay tourists than straight ones? I seriously doubt that, since both destinations attract people from all over the world, whether gay or straight. - Marc Averette 15:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
- That's very POV. The article mentions that South Beach appeals to European tourists. Do we remove that because every other place entry in Wikipedia doesn't mention that the place is NOT a European tourist destination? That's ridiculous. Removing the reference to gay tourism while retaining references to other groups is POV. South Beach is known for its appeal to the gay demographic, that's just a fact. reference, reference, reference. Highlighting the appeal of South Beach to European tourists and the fashion industry but whitewashing away its connection to gay culture is very POV. (Sobesurfski 15:37, 2 February 2007 (UTC))
- Again with the double standard. I guess we need to go through every place that isn't recognized as "gay" listed throughout Wikipedia and list them as "straight" places. Pretty big task. - Marc Averette 13:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- The entry on Little Italy is an example of an NPOV article on a concentration of one demographic in a specific geographic location. Like it or not, South Beach really is known throughout the world for its gay population, and also as a gay-friendly tourist destination. It's POV to ignore such a commonly-accepted aspect of South Beach. I write this as a (straight) resident of South Beach. (Sobesurfski 11:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC))
[edit] Alternative Names
I saw that it said "also known as SoBe" in parenthesis in the first paragraph. Being a Miami native my whole life, I've never heard anyone call South Beach "SoBe" so I removed that information.
- I live in South Beach. I've heard "SoBe", but it's always been said by people away from here (or in magazine articles referring to South Beach). I've never heard anyone local say "SoBe". I certainly never say it, since aside from sounding stupid it's the name of a very bad tasting low-quality line of soft drinks. As a matter of fact, when people (in Miami) ask me where I live, I say "the beach", and when people away from Miami ask me where I live, I say "Miami Beach", not even South Beach. - Marc Averette 04:36, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Very true. It seems to mostly be New Yorkers who are into terms like "SoHo" who say things like "SoBe" and "SoFi" (South of Fifth in Miami Beach). People from this area just call it "the beach". (Sobesurfski 15:39, 2 February 2007 (UTC))
