Talk:South African farm attacks

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Contents

[edit] Previous discussions

Rewrite —  POV —  Weasel words —  But who are the Weasels? —  Murder rate among white SA commercial farmers — control calculation —  Sections —  Controversial

Agricultural output / Missing mealies • Daily bloodshed - death squads • Racist Boers Nostalgic for Apartheid? • POV/research/Black negationism • Struggle songs and hate speech • Genocide • Title. • (Moved to talk page) • Biased • Proposed page move to South African farm attacks • Redirect pages up for deletion • Title? Please. •

[edit] Genocide Watch source

I've edited the sentence in the intro about the Genocide Watch article making claims about the murder rate per attack, as I cannot find any such claim in the article referenced, or anywhere else on the site. I've left the claim that it constitutes genocide. I've also emailed the organisation, asking them for more information about the article, as it makes no mention of the author, and uses only newspaper articles and one private website as its sources. (It also has the title "Dear Dr", suggesting that it was written by someone outside of their organisation, and sent as correspondence.) -Kieran 13:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


The following is a transcript of what Gregory Stanton: the President of Genocide Watch said in the Carte Blanche television program (a South African news magazine program) regarding the murder rate of the farmers which he calls a genocide under the Genocide Convention.

Dr Gregory H. Stanton (Genocide Watch): “It seems to me a very troubling statistic that the murder rate of the farmers, the Boer farmers, is about four times as high as is for the rest of the population”

Dr. Stanton is a retired American professor of law who heads Genocide Watch, the organisation that co-ordinates the international campaign to end genocide.

We met him in Berlin where he was attending a conference in remembrance of the Holocaust.

He believes that, apart from crime, there's also another motive.

Gregory: “There's a motive of hatred, that these are hate crimes, that people are tortured, that they're murdered in ways that are de-humanising.”

Not only does Stanton believe farm murders are hate crimes, but he's also recently warned the world that the white farmers in South Africa could be facing genocide. Twenty years ago he witnessed the horrors of the Cambodian genocide.

Gregory: “I realised, I think, from that point forward that I would spend the rest of my life working to stop genocide and to bring those who committed it to justice.”

Years later, that's exactly what he did. He was the person responsible for drafting the UN resolutions that created the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

Stanton has identified eight stages of genocide by comparing the history of genocides in the 20th century. He describes it as a process, rather than an act that could take many years to be effected.

Gregory: “The third stage is really where you begin the downward spiral into genocide and that is the stage of de-humanisation. It is where you treat the other people as though they're less than human.”

A scene like this, he says, should have the alarm bells ringing.

This farmer was ambushed at his farm gate, shot in the back and left to die. His vehicle was burnt out and his body displayed with the lights and number plates.

Gregory: “These are clearly hate crimes. It's such a symbolic expression of de-humanisation. They're so treating him like a thing.”

It's often thought that a whole group needs to be killed before it's defined as genocide, but that's not the case.

Stanton says the more than one thousand four hundred farmers killed in South Africa could be classified under the Genocide Convention.

Gregory: “Even if it's a few hundred individuals who have been targeted, that is an act of genocide under the convention.”

However, Stanton warns that South Africa has already slipped into the fifth stage of the process, or what he refers to as polarisation.

Gregory: “Extremists attempt to drive out the centre, they attempt to divide the world into just two camps; into us and them.”

And from there on, he says, it's a small step to the seventh stage when the actual genocide takes place and where the word genocide is used.

Gregory: “People who commit this crime often think amazingly enough that they're purifying their society in some way or another, you know - they're getting rid of insects or some kind of less than human form of life.”

A civil war is potentially more likely, says Moolman.

Prof Neels Moolman: “I don't think we are there yet, but I think that we are speeding to that point very fast if the radicals are not controlled properly.”

Gregory: “They will say that the genocide was really just a civil war as though a civil war somehow was an opposite of genocide when in fact many genocides occurred during civil wars.”

Link to the program transcript.

There should be more from the organization soon concerning this issue as I understand that they will be doing a follow up on the situation.

Ron7 07:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Edit of 18:00, 26 October 2006

As part of the edit I did, I commented out (but did not delete) the "Criticism" section due to the following concerns:

  • The first sentence is just a broad statement without being backed up by a reliable source
  • The second sentence (which IS referenced) is referring to the use of the well-known political slogan "Kill the Boer, kill the farmer" in a post-apartheid setting where it has been defined as hate speech. This is fine, but here is my problem: the connection between officials "not stopping crowds chanting this slogan" and the government "failing to take appropriate measures against these attacks" has no basis in fact. The editor who originally put this in created a logical leap in his own mind between the two incidents, which constitutes original research and is not permitted. The reason I commented it out instead of deleting is so that IF a reliable reference is found that makes this logical connection then it can be re-stated, citing the appropriate reference.
  • The second paragraph of that section is also unreferenced and in fact does not seem to belong in that section.

I also removed the long-standing unreferenced "reasoning behind the attacks" speculation. There has been more than ample time given to find a reference to those claims. They can be added back in with a reliable reference. I also re-arranged the rest of the article to improve style and flow, putting the TAU's response to the Committee of Inquiry report in the correct chronological place, and moving GW's claims to the lead-in section as it seems more logical there. Zunaid (T•C) Please rate me at Editor Review! 16:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Reference added. Farmer armies in the killing fields --Jvb – October 27, 2006
That reference you provide is an article about farmers conducting patrols etc. It does not address any of the points I raised above. I'm off home now, but next week I'll write in a section about the farm patrols using the ref you provided. Zunaid (T•C) Please rate me at Editor Review! 14:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. The suspended “Criticism of government” section of the article does address the points you raise. Indeed, saying that the police "are not part of the solution but part of the bloody problem" is, if not worse, saying the same as that “Critics of the government say that the South African government is failing to take appropriate measures against these attacks”. Therefore I unsuspended the incriminated section. --Jvb – November 7, 2006

I've rewritten the section to reflect exactly the quote that was made, with the correct attribution. I've also included a mention about the farm patrols in that same section. However, points 2 and 3 have still not ben addressed with the addition of this particular reference so I've commented them back out. Zunaid©Please rate me at Editor Review! 14:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality tag

I feel the article as it stands is fairly neutral and generally balances out the viewpoints presented, thus the neutrality tag should be removed. Comments? Zunaid©Please rate me at Editor Review! 11:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems okay to me too. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

  • NOT NEUTRAL - This article is not neutral, and the tag should not be removed.--222.154.88.252 00:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Care to explain your reasoning? Zunaid©Please rate me at Editor Review! 14:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime Expo South Africa

A link should be added to the Crime Expo South Africa article, as it exposes the South African farm attacks / Farm murders. The editors (Zyxoas / Zunaid) above would be object to it, whilst stating that this article is neutral. --222.154.88.252 00:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

These editors are being paid to edit this article, and a photograph of them will be published shortly.--222.154.88.252 00:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

222.154.88.252 is a disgruntled ex-pat now in New Zealand, methinks, trying to justify their exit. Wizzy…☎ 07:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong witht that. He or they had sufficient reason for leaving. --Adriaan90 08:11, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

A photograph of me!? I'd love to see this one, please!! Btw my name is Tebello Thejane, I'm 22 years old, and I live in Meyerton -- I can give you even more info should you need it. This should be interesting... o_O Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

This is rather amusing; must say. Thank the FSM for emigration, that way we can get rid of some of our racists, moaners and wallies... Mikker (...) 18:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Wow what a disgusting thing to say. Do you think whites are the only people to be affected by crime and want to emigrate?? Go and take a look at News24.co.za and remove your blinkers. I fully agree that the link to Crime Expo should be added - most of the incidents there are not reported by newspapers as they are 'so common'. SparrowsWing 23:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Ummm... no I don't think "whites are the only people to be affected by crime and want to emigrate". Where the hell did you get that from? And I've had more than my fair share of break-ins and other criminal events, so I'm not saying crime isn't a problem. I'm saying SA has an unusually large number of stupid idiots, people who do nothing but moan and racists. Thankfully, some of these emigrate. Good riddance. Mikker (...) 23:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Then I do apologise - I totally misread what you said. Crime is something that affects all people in South Africa ... and you are quite correct - moaning will not change or improve things. SparrowsWing 23:56, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not agree with the link to Crime Expo. It did not give an accurate indication of farm attacks - it was a sensationalist, attention seeking site, trying to hamper job creation. The 'editor' also didn't add comments from people who were against the site, or had good stories... bluntly ignored it, so it didn't give you an indication of that - only the bad things. While Crime in SA is a problem, that was not a constructive way to try and counter it. (White female living in SA) --Theabc 20:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Percentage of attacks on whites

I've heard that white people own 80% of farms in South Africa in which case the figure of 61% definitely shows that the vast majority of the attacks were crimes for gain and not racially/ politically motivated.

Also the fact that many of the larger, commercially more successful farms are white owned may back up the theory that it's generally a crime for gain and not one to just attack whites.

P.S. I'm not there so I don't know to be honest but I've heard that the blacks, who're the most criminal people there, don't actually rob white homes and murder the inhabitants it's usually because they're confronted by an armed house- owner and return fire.

In order for the article on Crime in South Africa and this one to be neutral can we obtain some figures on the number of burglars who are killed/ injured while robbing homes to indicate that they generally don't enter property, executed the people inside and then rob the things inside, but that they're normally disturbed.

86.27.49.214 10:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I definitely do not think all farm attacks are done to attack whites, there is a gain motivation behind it as well. But it does not explain why old people (78) are shot in the head after they've already been overpowered and strapped to a chair. Example 1
Or why a woman is gang raped after she gave them her cash, wedding ring, watches, etc. Example 2

Or strangling an 68 year old man after empowering him, taking only his cell phone in the end. Example 3 Or bludgeoning a farm manager to death with knobkerries because of land. Example 4 Or hit an 83 year old woman over the head after she has been tied up. Example 5 Or executing a couple in their 60's Example 6

Above is all examples only since December last year - I hope this gives you an indication of how wrong your statement was: "don't actually rob white homes and murder the inhabitants it's usually because they're confronted by an armed house- owner and return fire."
PS: It is most definitely NOT only whites that are affected.
PSS: On this comment: "that the blacks, who're the most criminal people there" - reasons being (IMO) a) that 70% of the country is black people, so obviously 70% of criminals would be black and b) a lot only steal because they don't have jobs and need to get food on the table - but that doesn't give you an excuse to murder or rape someone...

--Theabc 20:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

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