Talk:Sopor Aeternus and the Ensemble of Shadows

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Contents 1 Genitals 2 Female pronouns 3 Request for cleanup 4 vocal 5 Gender pronouns

[edit] Genitals

has Anna-Varney Cantodea removed his genitals as mentioned in the his songs(anima) or its just a special effect with pc or something?

It says in the article that it's Photoshopped in due to spiritual conflicts (He'd get the operation if it weren't for his beliefs.)

[edit] Female pronouns

Maybe if Anna-Varney Cantodea now uses the female pronoun, we should edit either the whole article or the parts referring to events after she stopped using "he" to conform to her preference? Or if I'm reading that wrong and Anna-Varney doesn't prefer the female pronoun generally, but only in some sort of artistic connection, that's not made clear in the article and should be clarified.

The German page uses the female pronoun (as do most German fans). I suggest the female pronoun for the whole page, but explain it at the beginning of the article.

This seems to be a clear cut psycological case of gender identity confusion, and in this particular person a form of artistic expression, to base this article that embraces the subjects disorder is not befitting of an encyclopedia. This article just confuses readers of what the gender of this person really is. While it should be stressed in the article the artist's manner in which he identifies with himself, this should not go as far as to break the factual and objective nature of an encyclopedia. Therefore, it should be corrected into the proper form of english which does dictate through words the gender of whom it describes. While his music may be created for him and him only (even though he seems to not have a problem with putting it on albums and selling it rather than the apathetic persona he wishes to portray), this article is not.

[edit] Request for cleanup

I've requested a cleanup. Good articles relating to a person should be consistent about using either male of female pronouns, should be written in the NPOV and should cite its sources. Currently, none of that is the case with this article.SoothingR 12:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree about the consistency part and thats easily fixed. The "problem" is only which pronoun to use. Im no veteran "wikipedian" AND im a Sopor-fan so im probably bias but imho i think that the article should refer to Anna as "she", even though she still have male genitalia. But thats nothing i would "bitch" about.

And i dont see were the article fails at NPOV and doesnt the links at the bottom suffice as sources? Slipzen 23:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The only two links are the official band site and fansite (which is in german). I did look at the band site and there was none of what is up there, however the site itself was not very indicative of where what was.

[edit] vocal

is she really a woman? i cant belive!,...im a fan,..im a mad,...sopor s music make me mad,...i love her

She is born with male genitalia and havent had any surgery so technically she's a man.--Slipzen 01:44, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it not the genitalia that make the gender? Therefore, he is a man because he has male genitalia. And if he has testicals he will have male hormones.

[edit] Gender pronouns

In response to the above query, no, genitalia does not make gender. Gender is a cultural construct. Sex, on the other hand, is biological and determined by one's chromosomes, which usually result in either male or female genitalia; this is not even always clear-cut, and numerous ambiguities exist.

When it comes to how one identifies, however, genitalia and chromosomes have little to do with reality. Besides, anyone can take hormones to help their body develop in a way that better suits their identity. If the above poster believes that male hormones make a man, what would you say to a male-to-female transsexual who takes estrogen? Is this person a male or a female? In the face of ambiguities it is most helpful to look at what this person's identity is, what their reality is, not what their level of hormones or the chromosomes they were born with show.

If this artist identifies as female, or as genderqueer preferring female pronouns, then the article about her should reflect that. Particularly if the article in the German Wikipedia uses female pronouns (alas, I speak no German, so I have to rely on the words of one of the above posters), this one should too. I am reverting the recent edits, where "she" was changed to "he", and I hope that anyone disagreeing will come discuss the matter here rather than just reverting back again. Thanks, romarin [talk ] 02:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)