Template talk:Sonic games

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Contents

Documentation - Discussion

Contents

[edit] Documentation

[edit] Purpose

{{SonicGames}} —

Used on the articles for all Sonic the Hedgehog-related games.

Contents

Documentation - Discussion

[edit] Usage

Usage Example
{{SonicGames}}
v • d • e
Sonic the Hedgehog main series

Sonic the Hedgehog (1991) · Sonic the Hedgehog 2 · Sonic the Hedgehog CD · Sonic the Hedgehog 3 · Sonic & Knuckles · Sonic Adventure · Sonic Adventure 2 · Sonic Heroes · Shadow the Hedgehog · Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) · Sonic and the Secret Rings

[edit] History

Created 15 August 2005 Igordebraga
Archive 1 created 27 March 2007 Hello2112

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Shadow the Hedgehog (game)

This game shouldn't be include in the main series as it is a spin-off, this would be like adding Knuckles Chaotix to the main series list.

Why has this been readded and the page put on protection without mention? Either put Chaotix on the list as well or remove Shadow the Hedgehog.

Shadow passes the revised inclusion criteria as it ties in with the main games and includes running and jumping. It just adds another mechanic to the basic one. Hello2112 20:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Totally new inclusion criteria

From the above discussions, I have drawn up an inclusion criteria that is based on a games' merit which goes out of the way to avoid personal bias:

In times past the Sonic game templates were subject to edit wars over different points of view. The following criteria is a set of principles to guide inclusion of games in a particular navigational template, and is considered a standard that all editors should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.


A game can appear in {{Sonic games}} if and only if:

  1. The game is recognized as being a successful1a main series1b game;1c and,
  2. The game references other games directly before it and/or later games make reference to it;2 and,
  3. Sonic is the main character or appears in it;2 and,
  4. The plot ties in with other games;2 and,
  5. The game does not have odd gameplay.3

Failing any of the above:

  1. If it is a handheld game, put it in the handheld template.4
  2. Otherwise, put it in the spinoff template.4

[edit] Notes

1a. Success is evaluated on a game-by-game basis, not by influence in fan works. Suggested evaluation methods: GameRankings, MobyGames, amount of press coverage, sales, etc.
1b. A main-series game has significant page history at Sonic the Hedgehog (series)#TIMELINE. Note that not all such games are suitable here.
1c. Games must satisfy both criteria 1a and 1b.
2. This is the criteria the main article uses.
3. The game is built around the usual running and jumping. For example, this would include Shadow the Hedgehog, but it would not include Sonic Riders.
4. Use common sense when choosing between handheld and spin offs. A good suggestion is that a handheld game is a handheld 2D platformer that does not meet the above criteria.

[edit] Closing remarks

The purpose of this inclusion criteria is decide what is included in {{Sonic games}}, not where it goes if it is unsuitable for this template. However, as rule, the GameGear series and other GameBoy games are generally placed in {{Sonic games (handheld)}}, provided their gameplay and reception doesn't make them nothing more that a spin off. Under the above criteria, Sonic Riders is a spin off, with Sonic Battle being a spin off whose handheld platform being the only thing keeping it out of {{Sonic games (spin off)}}. On the other hand, Sonic Pinball Party is not in {{Sonic games (handheld)}} because it is not a platformer.

[edit] Comments

Barring no objections, I propose we transclude the above on all Sonic template pages via something like <noinclude>{{Sonic games/doc}}</noinclude> —davidh.oz.au 09:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

  • diff wording changes from the original. Still waiting for comments. —davidh.oz.au 07:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

i'm willing to support this, it seems fair. El cid the hero 11:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your support and for your honest assessment of the proposal. It means a lot to me. ^_^ —davidh.oz.au 22:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
finally, a sensible criteria has been reached. I fully support this. Hello2112 22:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, looks like you guys did a good job here. I have no complaints. User:Denjo
This is a good, well thought out criterion.
There are a couple of points on which I'm unclear, however. Since the five numbered conditions contain no reference to console type, I assume that handheld games (in particular Sonic Rush and the Sonic Advance series) will be allowed on the template under this criterion? If that is so, then it needs to be made clearer (for example in the "closing remarks"). I suggest that the criterion include a couple of examples of borderline games (such as Rush and others already included), and then explain in which template they belong.
Also, since you've already spent so much effort on this matter, it might be worth going the extra mile to make criteria for the other two contentious templates as well. In fact, given the solid backbone you've already provided, it shouldn't be too hard. Say if a game fails to meet conditions 3 or 5 (and possibly 4), then it is automatically a spin-off. If it meets these two, but fails to meet any of the other conditions (1, 2 or possibly 4), then it is judged against a new condition 6: can it be played on a portable/handheld console? Obviously, if it can, then it is a handheld game; if not, it is also a spin-off. If you choose to incorporate this, the wording will probably need to be fixed.
Or you may decide that attempting to expand the criterion further will just complicate things, and thus decide to ignore the suggestion. That's fine. As an inclusion criterion for this template only, I think it makes a lot of sense. Good job. -- Supermorff 12:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
You are correct, there is no reference to console type in the first five conditions. You also correct in assuming that Sonic Rush and the Sonic Advance series will be allowed on this template, because as A Link to the Past pointed out, they really are main series games. Funnily enough, the first inclusion criteria, did have such a "fall back" procedure, but was removed to make this new one simpler. ([1]) As for your other idea, including a "How to" section... I didn't think of that! :) —davidh.oz.au 06:28, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
One problem I have with this and it's involving Sonic Rivals. Rivals by all means is a part of the main canon as it does a number of things, the primary one being the true introduction of Silver and a reappearance of Eggman Nega. Just because it's a handheld doesn't make it any less canon, like Sonic Rush.
Also, Secret Rings is a spin off as Yogiro Okewa(or something like that) has expressly stated that it is separate from all previous games. Also, Sonic Advances 2 and 3 as well as Battle would also be a part of the main canon as 2 has a first time character introduction (Cream) and 3 picks up off Battle.GrandMasterGalvatron 14:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Rivals doesn't fail the inclusion criteria to my knowledge.
The only reason why Secret Rings is here is because we honestly thought it would be a main series game. (The development, the marketing, the lead-up, the reviews, the graphics, it all felt like it would be TheNextBigThing for Sonic... even more than Rivals or Next Gen. In fact it still does to some extent.) The last Sonic game I bought was Sonic Riders, so I wouldn't know if it is a spin off or not. Place it whereever you feel comfortable with it.
The problem with Sonic Battle is that it is a canon handheld fighting game, thus making its classification difficult. It belongs in all three templates. Strictly speaking, it isn't a splash and dash. However, under the above inclusion criteria, it should probably go under spin off or handheld. However, I will change the Sonic Rivals in the closing remarks section to Sonic Battle, so hopefully this should clear this up.
—davidh.oz.au 06:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh and Riders...well, I wouldn't necessarily render that a spinoff so much as the plot is concerned. We have the whole introduction of the Rouges thing and they have since cameoed in other games. I'm willing to discuss that though.GrandMasterGalvatron 14:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, but Riders is just as much a spin off as SatSR. Include one and you include them both. And Battle. And everything else. —davidh.oz.au 06:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I moved Secret Rings to the spinoff template so i guess that takes care of that. However, there's nothing expressly stating that Riders isn't canon. At least, not that I can find, but I don't really care. However, I kinda think all these templates ate tacky. Why not just one unifies, neatly organized template instead of four scattered ones? GrandMasterGalvatron 15:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I do agree with you. You see, there's this bloke called CVG WikiProject, (of whom I am a member,) who likes to do things differently than the rest of Wikipedia. No way in the world {{Naruto}} be allowed by CVG WikiProject if he had his way, simply because it makes navigation too easy. Why, I even had to split {{Sonic characters (other media)}} off from {{Sonic characters}} to save it from being split by that megalomaniac!
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, TfD doesn't really like all these useless templates clogging up her template space when he was only linking between two or three of his articles, and more often than not ordered him to merge them back. (good for her!) On the other hand, a very big navigation box between lots of articles that are very loosely linked under one general header, say, {{Wikipedia articles}}, would be just as evil. So, in time, a balance in the wiki was discovered, and an honor code around the guiding core principle set up so that all template-ians may live on template-ooine in peace. The End! :)
Morale of the story: There are some really lame edit wars just waiting to be found out there. I don't think it's possible to get a merge like that done under the radar.
—davidh.oz.au 11:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Secret Rings fails to make any connections to previous games, I believe, besides characters, and its gameplay falls under odd gameplay. Riders fails because it has odd gameplay. The Advance games...I don'te believe that they make connections to previous games, so I say leave them and Battle in the handheld template. Hello2112 00:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
(previous discussion) A Link to the Past has presented a convincing argument that the Advance series and Rush really are main series games, and it has yet to be rebuffed. —davidh.oz.au 06:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
So is platform being disregarded completely here? If so, then I'm perfectly fine with them bring moved over to this template, despite that I don't truly see any connections to othergames besides Cream's introduction to the series. Hello2112 00:43, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Well I suppose you can't have Sonic Advance 2 without Sonic Advance 1 and 3? —davidh.oz.au 11:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop. Adding. Secret. Rings. To. The. Template. It has been determined as having odd gameplay, meaning that it is in the spin-offs template. Hello2112 01:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, it's not the control scheme that's the problem because it is still running and jumping. After all, we can't hold the control scheme against it, otherwise we'd be stuck with only 8-way-d-pad games! :P However, in this case it is the story that's the kicker. I do hope SatSR is retconned into canon like Sonic Rush was, simply because the last game that came close to having such a good reception was Sonic Adventure and Sonic Heroes. From the article:
"The game has received above average scores praising it for its graphics, varied challenges, as well as its many resolved issues (such as camera angles, poor controls, and other common issues) that were present in preceding 3D Sonic games, making it the most well-received 3D Sonic game since Sonic Heroes."
Aaannd.... look at the bottom of the article: there's 54 references, which is a good indicator of GA material at such an early date. And guess what? In Australia, Target (Australia) now sells it along with Wii-Sports as the two pack-in games for the Wii! Give it 12 months and it'll be back in this template, I'll bet. That said, for now it might be best to err on the side of caution. However, make sure to be kind about it. We don't want to upset anyone, even if we suspect that it'll be back here eventually. ^_^ —davidh.oz.au 11:51, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Shadow leads to the character article. - The 4th Snake 20:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that Secret Rings IS part of the main series. There is absolutely NO evidence to disprove it. Oh, the gameplay's different. So? Sonic Adventure's gameplay was radically different from the 2D Sonic games. Does that make it a spinoff too? Oh, and the story's different? Every single 3D Sonic story has been different, in case you haven't noticed. It IS part of the main series.207.224.61.246 18:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

  • You could have said it nicer. >> There's no real evidence to prove it as a main game, either, now is there? Would we not have to wait for another Sonic game that makes connections to it and establishes it as part of the main canon? Hello2112 16:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
  • That's what I thought too. I believe Sonic and the Secret Rings is not a spin-off. But I won't bother you guys if you make it a spin-off. Willy105 12:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revised inclusion criteria

per Supermorff's suggestions:

In times past the Sonic game templates were subject to edit wars over different points of view. The following criteria is a set of principles to guide inclusion of games in a particular navigational template, and is considered a standard that all editors should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page.


The purpose of this inclusion criteria is to decide what is included in {{Sonic games}} and where a game goes if it is unsuitable for the main template. This guide was not designed to go into detail about how a spin off is different from a handhand game. However, the GameGear series and other GameBoy games are generally placed in {{Sonic games (handheld)}}, provided their story, gameplay, and reception doesn't make them nothing more that a spin off. When in doubt, don't move it.

[edit] General inclusion criteria

A game can appear in {{Sonic games}} if and only if:

  1. The game is recognized as being a successful1a main series1b game;1c and,
  2. The game references other games directly before it and/or later games make reference to it;2 and,
  3. The game does not have odd gameplay.3
  4. Sonic is the main character or appears in it;2 and,
  5. The plot ties in with other games;2 and,

Failing any of the above, said game can appear in {{Sonic games (handheld)}} if:

  1. The game is a handheld game and is part of the main series;1b Or,
  2. The game is a handheld game and meets points 3 and 5 above.

A game can appear in {{Sonic games (spin off)}} if the above criteria fails to find a suitable place.

[edit] Notes

1a. Success is evaluated on a game-by-game basis, not by influence in fan works. Suggested evaluation methods: GameRankings, MobyGames, amount of press coverage, sales, etc.
1b. A main-series game has significant page history at Sonic the Hedgehog (series)#TIMELINE. Note that not all such games are suitable for {{Sonic games}}.
1c. Games must satisfy both criteria 1a and 1b.
2. This is the criteria the main article uses.
3. The game is built around the usual running and jumping. For example, this would include Shadow the Hedgehog, but it would not include Sonic Riders.

[edit] Using this criteria

The first five conditions are used to eliminate games from the template, and the second two are used to decide where to place these "eliminated" items.

A trivial example of how this inclusion criteria works would be demonstrating that Sonic Riders is a spin off because it fails criterion 3 (gameplay) in the first group and 7 (not a handheld game) in the second group. Another example is Sonic Battle which satisfies all criteria in the first group except for criteria 3 (it is a fighting game), and so it is a handheld game because it satisfies criterion 6 in the second group. In an even more bizarre case, Knuckles' Chaotix would be a spinoff because it features an altered ring system. On the other hand, Sonic Pinball Party is not in {{Sonic games (handheld)}} because it fails criteria 3 and 7 (not a platformer).

[edit] A word of warning

Every single attempt by Wikipedians to classify articles with endless sets of "inclusion criteria" has long since proven to be nothing more than an exercise in frustration. There will always be occasions when an article will not fall neatly into one single niche*, and these articles tend to make rules like this worthless. When implementing this inclusion criteria, please remember to use common sense and consider that perhaps the most useful piece of information on this page might not be the inclusion criteria but the introductory message.

[edit] Comments 2

Revised in an attempt to more fully encompass the other templates. —davidh.oz.au 08:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, this clears up the Advance/Rush main series issue - they'd stay in handheld anyway. This is better. Hello2112 19:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
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