Talk:Somali language

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My edit a few days ago that I did not clarify--sorry, it was a conversion to Wikipedia:WikiProject Language Template and in the process deleted some irrelevant info. Sorry for scaring you people. Wikiacc 22:33, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Omission 2 Somali organization names 3 'Occupied' 4 Official status? 5 Consonant chart 6 Waa 7 Alphabetical order 8 Sorry state 9 # of speakers

[edit] Omission

wikipedia is agreat web site there are a lot of interesting information in it, but i would like to inform you that somali language is spoken in somalia, djibout,ethiopia,kenya please don't misled people by writting in your web site somali is only spoken in Somalia,Djibout,Ethiopia why you exclude kenya particularly north east kenya is purly somali region

If you feel a change is needed, feel free to make it yourself! Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone (yourself included) can edit any article by following the Edit this page link. You don't even need to log in, although there are several reasons why you might want to. Wikipedia convention is to be bold and not be afraid of making mistakes. If you're not sure how editing works, have a look at How to edit a page, or try out the Sandbox to test your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. — mark ✎ 07:13, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Somali organization names

can anyone provide full names (with English translation) of the mass organizations of the Barre period? Such as XGUSS, UDHIS, UDKS, XUSS, etc.? --Soman 21:38, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Occupied'

User:Soomaali recently reworded the article so as to say that the parts of Ethiopia where Somali is spoken are 'occupied' by Somalia. Regardless of one's views on the matter, this does not comply with the NPOV policy. Just like maps can render actual boundaries without implying endorsement of them, the job of Wikipedia is to report facts without implying endorsement or indeed disapproval. — mark ✎ 10:07, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

Mark, I, obviously, am the person that goes with user name--"Soomaali." I edited and wrote 'occupied Somali region of Ethiopia" because there was/is no official and clarified agreement the former or current goverments of Somalia and Ethiopia. This dispute resulted one major war, plus another two minor unofficial wars regarding that region called "Soomaali Galbeed" (Western Somalia) by Somalis. It is still in official dispute, which most Somalis regard unsolved. So this justifies my reasoning of it being 'occupied.' Mind you the "border" between Somalia and Ethiopia isn't internationally recognized, and no body has an official agreement where to draw the line. Even the colonial powers who divided the Somali people let that "boundary" be vague, as it is today. It isn't a border per se as other international known boundaries are.

Thank you for your explanation. I must say that I'm not at home in the politics of this part of Africa, and I'm sure you know more about it than I do. However, I objected to the use of the term 'occupied' because it reflects a certain point of view — the Somali point of view, as I gather from your explanation. We should find a way to avoid making any statement of the sort, as using the term 'occupied' would imply endorsement of the Somali position. Is it possible to rephrase it in order to make clear that the boundaries in fact are not clear-cut and that there is disagreement as to which territory belongs to whom? — mark ✎ 11:52, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Chiming in, the word "occupied" carries the connotation of illegality or immorality and is almost impossible to use without taking Point of View. Addding details of disputes is welcome but, regardless of the existence of an administrative line rather than a border between Oromo and southern Somalia, "occupied" is not NPOV. By the way, please sign your posts with ~~~~; it makes it much easier to follow a discussion. Cheers, BanyanTree 14:38, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Mark, again, I have a little question for you: Why do you insist placing there "Somaliland" as though it is an internationally recognized country? If you add Somaliland, so would "Puntland" fit too? Every region in Somalia today in one way or another is declaring "autonomous" from somewhere or nowhere. Somaliland is thus among a host of these, an exception only being it to declare an unequivocal republic, with no other country recognizing to date. It is still officially the northern part of war-torn Somalia. And with Somaliland, some regions overlap Puntland, and are, in fact, controlled by Puntland "authorities," with a lot of unsolved disputes. The inhabitants of those two regions (provinces) within official colonial Somaliland border side with Puntland because of clan affiliation. It is a lot more complicated than it seems superficially at first.

PS, I, as a simple Somali national, am neither from "Puntland" nor "Somaliland," but I do know the facts at hand, which renders me not inclined to either self-declared autonomous identities.--Soomaali

Please understand that all I do here is object to the word 'occupied' on the grounds that it is POV (just like BanyanTree does). As I said before, I'm not at home in the geopolitics of this part of Africa. I'm not insisting on the use of any other term, as I quite frankly wouldn't know the best way to describe the situation. — mark ✎ 08:39, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Mark, sorry not being able to clarify that much. I wasn't even faintly referring to "occupied" issue. I let that pass up, and I didn't re-edit. But I was talking about another whole new issue--the issue of Somaliland (which is Northwestern part of Somalia). I thought it was you who put Somaliland along with Somalia. It is this that I have a problem now.--Soomaali

Ah, OK. I didn't even notice you had edited out 'Somaliland' because directly after your edits there was an edit of someone else correcting a typo, which was the only one that showed up on my watchlist. I think I'm not committed to using 'Somaliland' — however, make sure that the article is complete and that everyone can understand in what territories, regions and countries Somali is spoken. Somaliland may not be a recognized country, but that doesn't make it impossible to refer to — see Somaliland, where the term 'territory' is used. But really, my knowledge is too limited at present to offer valuable suggestions. — mark ✎ 10:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the discussion of the occupation of territories is explained on other pages, and as a knowledgeable user Soomaali's contributions on those pages would be most welcome. Since this is a page exclusively about language, perhaps Northern and Southern regions of Somalia, or an explicit listing from Regions of Somalia would be appropriate ? Mention Puntland by all means, but complete it by listing the other regions as well. We strive for consensus on these pages, and if there are inaccuracies, we are looking for help. Wizzy…☎ 13:02, May 9, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Official status?

I just reverted a recent edit to this article. The edit was not so much incorrect as it was unclear. One assertion was that Somali is the most widely spoken language in East Africa. The numbers don't support this, and I wonder if the editor meant that it is the most widely spoken in a geographical sense (i.e. the most widespread language). If so, this is certainly notable, though a reference would be useful.

I'm also wondering about Somali as an official language. According to the Somalia article it is indeed the official language of Somalia (inasmuch as this may be "officiated"). But the Djibouti article says the official languages are Arabic and French, which is curious since the two main ethnic groups are Somali and Afar (the latter of which also has its own language). The Ethiopia article still says the official language is Amharic. I'm pretty certain that there are now multiple official languages. I assume Somali is one of these but don't know for certain. And according to the Kenya article, the official languages are English and Swahili. If we can sort all this out regading somali's official status, it would be helpful to update all of these articles at once. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 5 July 2005 19:23 (UTC)

I think the Ethiopia situation is that each region has its own set of official languages. - Mustafaa 5 July 2005 20:01 (UTC)

Somali has no offical status in Kenya. The official languages of Somalia are Arabic and Somali. The situation in Ethiopia is not very clear to me. I though it was similar to Zambia: one official language (Amharic in the case of Ethiopia, English in Zambia) and a set of "national" languages in each region. But I'm not sure. Brittannica 2005 says: Official language: none. Amharic is the "working" language. Concerning Djibouti, it is true that its official languages are Arabic and French (a relic of Arabization and colonization). — mark ✎ 6 July 2005 20:07 (UTC)

[edit] Consonant chart

I've just added the consonant chart but I feel a bit of a fraud. I speak no Somali at all. I came looking for the info but since I didn't find it, I added what I found elsewhere. Please go ahead and make corrections. Especially the digraph "DH". Elsewhere I read this was a post-alveolar ejective. I've copied from a chart that labels it as a postalveolar stop but uses the symbol for a retroflex stop. That can't be right! Also both my sources characterize the digraph "KH" as uvular but the text on the writing system shows it as velar. Thanks. Gailtb 23:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

From which source did you get the consonant chart? Hirzel 07:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, it was my first Wiki edit. One of my sources was "Concise Compendium of the World's Languages" by George Campbell. The other was http://www.rosettaproject.org/live/search/showpages?ethnocode=SOM&doctype=phon&scale=six&version=1&allpages=1

I hope to get to a decent library this week where I can get accurate info. Will cite my source properly if I manage it! Gailtb 20:32, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm about to start changing and adding phonology info. To clarify, it's all now based on Saeed (1999), already cited. --Gailtb 08:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

My qus about the writing system. What phoneme is represented by "Y"? Does "Q" represent [q]? Is there a written representation of [ʔ]? Gailtb 23:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I am not that knowledgeable about phonics, so pardon my little tryings of helping you. "Y" in Somali does sound like almost exactly the English equivalent of letter "Y." The letter "Q" in Somali has no equavalent pronouncement in English, but closely resembles the letter 'Q' of English language, though in English it is pronounced more like "K." [ʔ] is represented by "C" letter in Somali, and there is no letter that is equavalent in English. It doesn't exist, and most English speakers can't pronounce it correctly. The closest sound would be saying 'ayn,' because that is also the Arabic letter which is the same. But the Somali one isn't pronounced 'ayn,' rather "-'a." Basically, the letter isn't there.

Your inquires about the letters "Dh" and "Kh," in letter "DH," it sounds more like the "D" letter of English. For example, "do" would be "dhu" in Somali. The letter "KH" and "Q" in Somali, even Somalis themselves confuse them about most of the time which one to use correctly. The letter "KH" is Arabic-based and is a more strong-pronounced letter than "Q" of Somali. As I wrote, "KH" is more stronger-sounding than its counterpart of "Q."

I might try to give you few examples in another time.

[edit] Waa

It sounds like Somali waa is almost exactly parallel to Japanese wa. --JWB 06:12, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabetical order

I'm working on new text for the page. Could someone confirm that the order given for the alphabet is the "alphabetical order", ie what would be used in dictionaries etc? Gailtb 21:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

This is the aphabetical order, if I am not mistaken.

The consonants first:

B T J X KH D R S SH DH C G F Q K L M N W H Y

And the vowels. The short vowels first: A E I O U

And the long vowels: AA EE II OO UU

Vowels aren't part of the traditional alphabet, but different set of alphabet. Soomaali Nov., 20, 2005

Thanks. Please could you explain a little more about how words would be ordered in a dictionary. (Note: I'm inventing words as examples since I don't know any Somali.) Where does ' come in the alphabetical order, eg how do you order da', dab and dah? For the vowels - does baa come after bu? Does baa come before or after bam? Please go ahead and update the article with more precise information. Gailtb 21:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry state

The sorry state of this page (by afyaqaan): I just made a few changes on this page on the 28 to correct some of its errors, and wow, on the 29th, it was changed back. It just shows that everybody when is the expert or the scientist on a project, ther result is not science but something more like a folk story. For example, the page says that Somali has been greatly influenced by Arabic; the fact is that Somali has not been that much influenced, if you compare it to English which has been greatly influenced by the French language (over 50% of the English vocabulary is traceable to a French borrowing); not so Somali vis-a-vis Arabic. So the correct statement should say something like 'Somali has borrowed the most from Arabic, in particular in the field of religious terms (well, like maybe most lanuages spoken by Muslims).

Another contention remains about Somaliland; well, it is true that Somaliland is not yet recognized, like Kosovo; but the place exists, and has been lately in much of the world's media because of the parliamentary elections, while Somalia proper has been in the news lately, well, because of the pirates, and warlords, etc. There is nothing wrong with saying that Somali is spoken in Somalia, and Somaliland---rabid nationalists should take a cold glass of water, and calm down.

I was hoping that this article may develop into more a scientific one, but I am giving my hopes for now.

Afyaqaan

You are right, and I have reinstated your version, having made some minor corrections. (For example, I think we don't need to measure the extent of borrowing relative to the English-French percentage; it is more interesting to say in what domain borrowing has taken place.)

Thank you for your contributions, and please don't give up hope! In this case, I think the revert was made by another editor because this article is just too often targeted by anonymous vandals. In posting your thoughts on the Talk page, you did the most sensible thing you could do. I sincerely hope you do want to try to improve the article in the future. — mark ✎ 06:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] # of speakers

Where does the "15-20 million" come from? Ethnologue gives 12+ and a couple of language courses I browsed through gave 6-8 and about 10, respectively. --Lumijaguaari (моє обговорення) 16:00, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

It says it is 4th ranked but how is this possible when Swahili is no 1 and Hausa is no 2, there is no mention of swahili? --Halaqah 14:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)