Talk:Solstice

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I don't believe solstice (or summer solstice or winter solstice) should be capitalized—it's not capitalized in Britannica or Merriam-Webster)—and so I am lowercasing it in this article. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:56, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe that they would be lower case when used as scientific terms but if they were being used as the direct titles for religious holy-days they should be capitalized. Such editors' conventions have not yet caught up with the times: "The solstice in June is when I join the other Druids at Stonehenge for our Summer Solstice observance." Rejecting that as "wrong" simply perpetuates the prevailing religious chauvanism that leaves us with sentences like "Jesus turned His face to the setting sun while behind Him the moon was already above the earth's eastern horizon." User: Earrach, Ordained Druid Priest

Looks like the angles are messed up in the tropics: should be 23 not 26, and 46 not 43?

Yes, you are correct in believing the correct angles for the tropics of capricorn is 23 and 46. --Wired2Narnia

Contents 1 Please correct misconceptions 2 Altitude 3 capitalization of directions 4 solstice definition 5 Video Game Disambig 6 Illumination of the Earth Images 7 Animated pictures 8 Pedant alert 9 Tipping vs change of orientation 10 needs complete rewrite 11 Defining moments 12 Table of Solstices 13 preferred terms 14 switched images 15 Current Event 16 Confusing paragraph

[edit] Please correct misconceptions

The orbital diagram is beautiful, but misleading. It suggests that the earth's axis points in a different direction at different seasons of the year. It does not. The earth's axis should be tipped in the same direction for both the summer and winter solstice illustrations. You should then change the direction from which the sunshine comes from -- from the right in one, and from the left in the other -- just as it actually does when the earth shifts position by 180 degrees in its orbit. I'd omit the illustration for the equinoxes entirely. Anything you would draw would suggest that the earth's axis is oriented straight up and down, which is of course not correct. In reality, the sunlight would be streaming perpendicular to the page, which is not possible to draw in a two-dimensional illustration. User:BartBenjamin

It would also probably be better to use the terms "December Solstice" and "June Solstice" instead of "winter" and "summer." That way, it is correct for all hemispheres. That is how the International Planetarium Society solves this dilemma for its members located in both hemispheres. User:BartBenjamin

Adding December and June would be OK, but the traditional names are summer and winter. The illustrations fail to show what the labels are pointing at. They should be more schematic. PatShannon

in the Southern hemisphere the winter solstice falls in June while the summer solstice falls in December. As the solstices are important religous holidays in many Pagan traditions and the way in which they are celebrated depends on wether they mark the longest day or the longest night the important distinction is not which month they are in, but rather which season in the location in which they are celebrated. Babylon Horuv 23:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC) Babylon Horuv

[edit] Altitude

The term "altitude" is used a lot to describe the angle of the sun. It's obvious what it means, but can "altitude" strictly be used to describe an angle rather than a distance? Should we instead refer to inclination above the horizon? TerraGreen 00:14, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Altitude is routinely used to express the angle above the horizon. See for example the much cited US navy site. However the more formal astronomical term is elevation. Inclination is not normally used for positions but for planes (e.g. between equator and ecliptic). The full apparent location of a heavenly body is given by the combination azimuth and elevation. Although not scientific evidence, a quick search on Google reveals:

• azimuth elevation: 1.27M hits
• azimuth altitude: 1.57M hits

−Woodstone 14:21, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] capitalization of directions

Directions such as south and north are capitalized in this article. According to the Manual of style , they shouldn't.

[edit] solstice definition

I changed the definition from "the moment the Sun reaches its furthest angular distance to the equator" to "the moment Earth tilts at its greatest distance towards or away from the Sun" because the former conveyed that the sun moves as opposed to Earth's rotational axis tilting. I'm sorry if I this change is incorrect. If I am wrong, please tell me why. Jecowa 07:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, thank you. IMHO, geocentric coordinate systems have no place in explanations of the "why" of solstices and equinoxes yet they do seem to comprise 98% of the text in the leading paragraphs of dictionary, encyclopaedia and textbook definitions. Your choice of words actually explains what the event is / is caused by. Spherical Astronomy terms simply list the aparrent positions and motions seen from the ground: telling us only about certain effects rather than the "cause". Defining the summer solstice as "the moment when the sun has reached its highest declination above the celestial equator" - "explains" virtually nothing. I would though change your phrasing slightly, hopefully to make it even a little more clear: "Solstices: the moments on opposite sides of our annual orbital path where the Earth's constant 23 degree axial tilt comes directly in line with the Sun." 6_21_06 earrach

Speaking from a complete dummy's perspective, I found your definition (directly above, in your quotes), Earrach the most helpful in getting this concept through my overly thick skull, while sounding at least professional/astronomical (for my own mind, the words I would use, although they are trippy and untechnical are "the moment in the annual orbital path of the Earth when the sun gets the most light "spread across" the Earth). I am going to try to transpose the definition you offered here into the article. Matthew 04:00, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if "directly in line with the Sun" fully describes the process of the Solstice. Combining the two may help to further add to this defenition. Maybe it should read, "Solstices: the moments on opposite sides of our annual orbital path where the Earth's constant 23 degree axial tilt allows the earth to come in line with the Sun at its furthest declination above or below the celestial equator." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nthnbtlv4u (talk • contribs). on 6 September 2006

[edit] Video Game Disambig

There is also a video game called Solstice. I was looking for info on it, but got this instead. I decided to add a disambig link to the top of the page. What do you think? GLmathgrant 13:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Good job, GLmathgrant. Jecowa 08:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illumination of the Earth Images

In the images shown for the summer and winter solstices the orientation of the Earth's pole shifts from left to right while in actuality the direction of the pole is fixed in at a point near the North Star. Here is an image showing correct views of the Earth at the Jun and Dec solstices but which unfortunately lack some of the astronomical definitions contained in the images shown.

[edit] Animated pictures

The recently added animated pictures are a bit confusing. The Sun appears to rotate around the Earth. There seems to be a static cloud cover rotating around Earth as well. Animation is nice, but Earth should rotate, the Sun should be still and there should be no falsely repeatedly moving wheather pattern. −Woodstone 20:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, those are both goods ideas. If Earth rotates, then the phase could remain constant which would allow the diagram information to be included as well. Thanks, Jecowa 20:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pedant alert

Capitalization of "North/South Pole" is inconsistent in this article. Moreover, 'pole' is here in lowercase, while the North Pole and South Pole articles have it the other way around. It's rarely seen written in lowercase anywhere else, but I'm wary of changing it: Britannica has it capitalised, the OED doesn't. Any suggestions? The article should at least be consistent.

I'm sorry for any inconsistency I've caused. I capitalized North Pole because that's the way it was done in the North Pole article. Jecowa 03:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tipping vs change of orientation

The current version of the article states that an Earth's hemisphere tips towards the Sun. That evokes an image of the Earth nodding (in a yearly cycle) towards and away from the Sun. Clearly in a section discussing the Outside View, this is incorrect. The Earth's axis is fixed in space and does not tip. Only its orientation relative to the Sun changes. That was the basis of my preceding edits that were reverted (unjustly).

Secondly "inclination" perhaps even more an official name than obliquity for the angle between two great circles.

−Woodstone 17:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me to be a struggle between two groups of people. Those who understand how it works, and are frustrated if non technical terms are used, because they may not convey the exact meaning. And those who do not know yet know how it works, and get confused by the technical terms, looking for simpler words. I think the explanations should cater for the latter, but the definitions for the former.

Also a lot on confusion seems to come from the question whether the rotation axis keeps its orientation in space or not. I would think the article together with the first two pictures is very clear about that. Or is it? --Tauʻolunga 20:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] needs complete rewrite

Personally I think "outside view" and "inside view" is a bad way to go about it. Firstly, this should be adapted for all change. The axis won't always be tilted at 23.44 degrees and the solstice won't always be on a specific Gregorian calendar month. Secondly, the eccentricity on the earth does have an impact on the Earth's climate, this is probably one of the main reasons for more extreme climate in the south, but it won't always be so due to precession of the equinoxes. The mechanics should be explained better as such. John Riemann Soong 01:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

won't always be tilted at 23.44 degrees you have already mentioned by currently makes of about 23.44° (called the "obliquity of the ecliptic") which last link gives full additional information.

solstice won't always be on a specific Gregorian calendar month is (indirectly) mentioned with Refer to the equinox article for some remarks, (and they will remain to happen in June and December for many 1000 years to come).

eccentricity on the earth does have an impact on the Earth's climate, this is probably ^{[citation needed]} one of the main reasons for more extreme climate in the south you have already mentioned by adding Due to Milankovitch cycles, what more is needed?

"outside view" and "inside view" is a bad way, no, they give two different viewpoints of the same phenomenon. Only perhaps some better titles can be found.

Briefly, you have already addressed most problems yourself; a complete rewrite seems to me somewhat excessively. --Tauʻolunga 09:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

A complete rewrite is completely uncalled for. Minor corrections only. Hmoul 21:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defining moments

202.20.5.206 added "fact" to "defining moments". I'm not sure what statement he wants a citation for. The Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac defines the solstices as the two points on the ecliptic where the ecliptic longitude of the Sun is either 90° or 270° (which is not mentioned in the article). It does not mention the start of the astronomical seasons. — Joe Kress 06:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Table of Solstices

The table of solstice dates and times appears without any attribution as to its source or, alternatively, an explanation of how it might have been computed. Is tehre a risk that this may have been swiped froma copyright source?

87.112.73.171 14:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

For your reassurance, the table comes from the named reference Earth's Seasons Equinoxes, Solstices, Perihelion, and Aphelion 1992-2020. As a public site by the U.S.A. government, this is free of copyright. And this information was present in the talk page of template:solstice-equinox from the very beginning. −Woodstone 20:22, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] preferred terms

I switched the terms from winter/summer and June/December to northern/southern, for reasons that other contributors had already explained in the entry. -gmail "ww0308", not yet a registered wp user, 15 December 2006

[edit] switched images

Also, it appears that someone swapped the images for the heliocentric and geocentric sections! I went ahead and switched them back. -gmail "ww0308", not yet a registered wp user, 15 December 2006

[edit] Current Event

If we are filing this as a current event at the appropriate times, shouldn't we also be noting articles such as "December", "Monday", "day", and "night" as current events? Current event kind of implies that it is something which is expected to happen only once (not true here - this is a cyclical event), and that people, or a limited group of people, will be able to influence in some manner (not true with today's technology). I'm removing the tags. Rhialto 04:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC) ETA: someone beat me to it.

[edit] Confusing paragraph

"The northern solstice is in June on Earth, when the sun is directly over the Tropic of Cancer in the Northern Hemisphere, and the southern solstice is in December,"

I think this should be "The northern summer solstice is in June on Earth, when the sun is directly over the Tropic of Cancer in the Northern Hemisphere, and the southern summer solstice is in December". Agree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Craigfis (talk • contribs) 23:11, 21 December 2006 (UTC).