Talk:Sola fide

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[edit] Views of other groups

Other groups believe that faith is sufficient for salvation but not necessary.

I suppose that this is true, and interesting; but I think it is irrelevant. Is it necessary for neutrality, or even balance, to say that besides sola fide believers there are believers in something different? Mkmcconn 22:20 Oct 8, 2002 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary for neutrality or balance, but sometimes it helps to explain an idea by contrasting it with related or opposing ideas. In this case though, I'm inclined to leave it out unless there's a concrete example of an actual group that believes this. All I can think of is some form of universalism, in which case it wouldn't matter if you had faith or not. Wesley
Your point is especially valid for for Roman Catholicism, since the doctrine is formulated in contrast to the Catholic view (or at least, the Protestant understanding of the Catholic view); and that reference should be left in for that reason - unlike this one.

[edit] Romans 3:28

Regarding Luther's change to Romans 3:28, this was discussed in a book by an Orthodox theologian (name escapes me now) but independently confirmed by my wife, who was able to compare two German translations of the passage, one in a Luther translation of the NT and another in a Zwingli translation. Should be confirmable by anyone else with access to the same. Wesley 04:07, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Correct phrasing

The word "apparently" in the subtitles are misleading and very subjective. Some of those verses have many different interpretation from many different churches. (at least it wasn't apparent to me --;;) I changed it.. but i think someone needs to come up with a better word choice.. Highwind 00:39, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Would "Alleged support for sola fide in the NT" and "Alleged rejection of sola fide in the NT" be any better? This would suggest or emphasize that the NT doesn't contradict itself so much as different groups' interpretations of the NT contradict each other. Hopefully someone else will have a better idea. Wesley 03:47, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I like that~ cool! Highwind 08:16, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sola Fide: has the meaning changed? Do Catholics agree?

This doctrine is accepted by many Protestants, including Lutherans and Baptists, and is rejected by Catholics.

I think it would be more accurate to say "This doctrine, as it is here defined, is... rejected by Catholics." Catholics do accept it when it is understood to mean "a person is only justified by faith," "only a person with faith can be justified," or "without faith it is impossible to be justified." Johnaugus

After seeing your comment, I modified the passage in question. However, during this process I came to the conclusion that the first paragraph in this section is probably not a fair description of sola fide. Instead, it waters down this doctrine to the point that all Catholics and traditional Protestants would agree with what it says.
I suspect that some Protestants have modified this doctrine over the years, and this page really needs to distinguish Luther's original teaching (and perhaps different claims of what Luther's teaching meant) from the views of Protestants today.
The big sticking point is -- what does "faith" mean? If the word "faith" is never defined, anyone can believe in salvation by faith alone. The paragraph I am complaining about avoided the word "faith" entirely.
I'd love to hear a Protestant view on this, especially from a traditional Reformed or LCMS believer. As a Catholic, when I hear Protestants today say "You are not saved just by believing -- you need to have a saving faith, not just any faith," it sounds to me as if they are saying "Faith alone doesn't save; this faith needs to be made active through your works." My question is: if Luther heard them say this, would he interpret it as I am interpreting it? Lawrence King 07:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Those ideas of salvation by faith alone which are intended to contrast with the traditional Catholic view, are well-expressed by the confessional documents quoted in the article. While I do believe that the Catholic and the Protestant views are gradually approaching one another, they have not yet merged. Trent is (generally speaking) being much more liberally interpreted by both parties, than in the past. And, Protestants are less typically presenting their view of salvation in a piece-meal fashion - which has caused, and still does cause, differences of understanding and aggravates the disagreement. The sides are listening more carefully to one another - and doing so is less likely to raise accusations of betrayal. It is good to understand one another better. But, while it's difficult for anyone on either side to represent their side with authority (especially the Protestant side), "traditional Reformed or LCMS" believers, for example, are not convinced that the Reformation was not necessary. Mkmcconn (Talk) 08:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The question is not just what "faith" means (does it include hope, love, and faithfulness or is it mere assent?), but how "only/alone" works in the overall phrase (the difference between "a person is only justified by faith and cannot be justified without it" and "faith, and faith alone, justifies a person"). Depending on the answers to questions like these, Catholics agree or disagree with the doctrine. Even many Protestants seem to disagree over the meaning of sola fide. Mkmcconn: though you say "Those ideas of salvation by faith alone which are intended to contrast with the traditional Catholic view, are well-expressed by the confessional documents quoted in the article," several of those quotes could be interpreted to agree with Catholic doctrine. It really does matter what each group means by "faith" and how they intend "only/alone" to work in the overall construction. Johnaugus

I can agree that "it really does matter what each group means by 'faith'", and it is certainly no secret that Protestants disagree with one another over the meaning of sola fide. But, I really think that you are over-simplifying. None except anti-nomians believe that faith by itself justifies (nuda fide, I think is the derogatory term). Both, Catholics and Protestants believe that "full" faith is a principle of faithfulness, not bare assent to propositions. Both parties have been aware of these similarities from the beginning; and yet, the disagreement is as strong as ever.
As the final few ecumenical quotes indicate, there are attempts to interpret and explain Protestant documents of faith in such a way that a Roman Catholic would not necessarily disagree with them. However, these attempts are only partially successful, and suspected by some very vocal critics of being after all a brute exercise in distortion. And anyway, all of these works intentionally avoid specifics either of Protestant or of Catholic doctrine and practice - not surreptitiously, but because they are young efforts.
By the way, the article on Faith is terrible. The Catholic view is no longer even explicitly represented there. Maybe you could spearhead a rewrite. Mkmcconn (Talk) 16:39, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When you say "Both, Catholics and Protestants believe that 'full' faith is a principle of faithfulness, not bare assent to propositions" I do not disagree, as you seem to think. Antinomians are very rare in my experience, though they exist. As I said before, there's more than one question in the sola fide issue: what "faith" means and how "only/alone" works in the overall phrase. "A person is only justified by faith and cannot be justified without it" is different from "faith, and faith alone, justifies a person," but either construction can be understood in more than one way depending on what "faith" means.

And I don't think I'm "oversimplifying." The sola fide issue isn't the only one. There are many different conceptions of "justification" among different Christians too. So even if everyone agreed to the same meaning (or meanings?) of sola fide, not all differences would be solved yet. I wish it were easier for all our sakes, but it's not. :(

Thanks very much for the heads-up on the Faith article. If it's something I can help improve, I will try! Johnaugus

I think it is important that when studying the solas, one understands all of them before attempting to draw a conclusion on it's meaning. For example, Lutherans believe that a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. The Roman Catholic Church, while at times using similar language, still officially holds that faith, in order to save, must be accompanied by (or "infused with") some "work" or "love" active within a Christian.

[edit] The "Protestant Distinctive" heading

Mkmcconn, I agree with the changes you made in this section, except for one thing: the headings.

I had changed "A Protesant Distinctive" to "The doctrine of sola fide". This was a lame title, but I do feel this section needs a general title. The first paragraph describes the meaning of the doctrine. This paragraph does not describe or defend the claim that this doctrine is distinctively Protestant.

So the "Protestant Distinctive" heading should be a subheading above the second paragraph, which does say who believes it.

Also, consider this: Luther clearly believed that Paul taught sola fide, and Luther very likely believed that Augustine taught sola fide. Unless you are willing to call Paul and Augustine "Protestants", then the statement that "sola fide is a Protestant distinctive" is a bit controversial. In any event, I think this claim shouldn't be the over-heading of a major section. Lawrence King 06:07, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Correction/addition request

The NRSV Bible states in its introduction to Habakkuk (perhaps presumptuously) that the doctrine is based on Hab 2.4b, which was the influence for Rom 1.17 (cited in the article), and also Gal 3.11. Perhaps someone with more knowledge on the subject could find a way to insert the potential influence in the article. Eduardo Cuellar 18 Aug 2005

There are probably enough such verses to warrant a separate list of "Old Testament verses used to support Sola fide." Psalm 50 (51 in most English Bibles) and Micah 6:6-8 are two that come to mind. Wesley 06:11, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] History

There is nothing here from the standpoint of history, particularly social history, historical theology, etc. As if doctrine just pops out of a realm of pure abstraction and exists in hermetic bubbles of thought. Dan Knauss

I'm not sure I understand your statement in regards to the lack of historical theology within this document. Sola Fide is one of the core statements and teaching of the reformation, heavily emphasized by Martin Luther. While I would agree that there is only brief mention here, there is a link to the Wikipedia publication on Martin Luther, which goes into much more detail.

[edit] Biased Point of View

If this page is to conform to the neutral point-of-view pillar of Wikipedia it needs to explain why some Christians don't follow the protestant belief of sola fide. If you would like to explain why refuting sola fide should NOT be on this page then start here.

J.H 15:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

This article reads as a defence to Roman Catholicism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fabiodrn (talk • contribs) .

The phrase "... See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." was previously inaccurately representing itself as biblical text from James 2. Doesn't the New Testament verses provided under "New Testament verses used to refute sola fide" provide an adequate refutal?

Krb106 19:15, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the Roman Catholic position and other positions relative to sola fide need to be presented. We have to imagine ourselves as explaining what sola fide is to someone who never heard of it in the manner of an encyclopedia. All sides would need to be presented with the "narrator" being the neutral observer. Something like that as neutral point of view.--Drboisclair 04:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] removed section: Salvation verses outside of faith and works

While I would prefer to remove the entire section that lists verses, can the inclusion of these two verses be justified?

1 Corinthians 7:15d-16
God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
1 Timothy 2:15
Yet she shall be saved through child bearing; if she continue in faith and love and sanctification with sobriety.

What scholar anywhere would interpret these verses as having anything to do with the instrumental means of justification, which is the subject of this article? — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 00:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I would agree to the removal of this section for the reasons stated. I guess that the rationale for having it in there is that some interpreted the passages to mean that they leave room for one receiving salvation in a way other than through faith alone. These passages are a bit unclear, so they need to be interpreted in the light of the clear passages ("Scripture interprets Scripture").--Drboisclair 04:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bible verses

The section on Bible verses is quite long. Both sides should be reduced IMHO, and the various interpretations of the verses given from reliable sources to demonstrate how each side understands them. --Flex (talk|contribs) 16:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It should stay and please understand that Calvinism is after Luther in precidents. The reason why it should stay is because other articles reference this so they don't have to compile a list. The list is actually valid. It is precisely what Sola fide should is about. Presenting the case in the context of Sola scriptura. (F0xfree 09:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC))

I'm not saying the lists should be eliminated, just reduced. I'm sure Catholics et al. have something to say about the "Pro" verses and Protestants have something to say about the "Con" verses. Just listing verses without any explanation as to how they are understood is not exceedingly helpful, IMHO.

As for the template, Calvinism considers the solas an essential part of its theology, too. It was listed first in the text so that it would appear second (in left-to-right reading order). For that reason, I have restored the template. --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on the Calvinism template

F0xfree wrote on my talk page:

Hi there. I think it would be much better to display Calvanism in the historical passages that cover it rather than putting it next to Luther because there are thousands of other denominations that should be included if we use your standard. Please respond. Thanks you.

I would suggest that we should be consistent: either add all templates at the point of the historical passages or keep them all above. While the distinctive was emphasized by Luther, it is not exclusive to Lutheranism, and Calvinism is a broad term for the theology of the Reformed churches, which is a sizable group. --Flex (talk|contribs) 16:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But why are not all Protestant denominations included then? (F0xfree 06:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC))

Conceivably more could be included, though not many place as much stress on the doctrine as do the Luteran and Reformed churches. --Flex (talk|contribs) 01:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

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