Template talk:Socialism

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Contents 1 Regarding Socialism or socialism? 2 Red flower 3 Possible Omission? 4 Entry points 5 Should mixed economy be included 6 revert of additions 7 Nazism 8 Revolutionary Socialism 9 Organisation 9.1 Start over 10 Cultural Aspects 11 Utopian Socialism 12 Politics portal & List of socialist ideas 13 Simpler version 14 Libertarian socialism 15 red flag 16 Twice 17 Image 18 Trade Unions 19 Socialism by country

[edit] Regarding Socialism or socialism?

I was just wondering, should Socialism itself be with a capital S? Proper noun right? Meanwhile socialist and social are just common noun and adjective respectively? Perhap's all the *** of socialism articles should be moved to *** of Socialism.

Wikipedia has a well-established policy on this, unless it is a proper noun (i.e a location, person or organization) it is always lowercase, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). Lexor|Talk July 2, 2005 11:01 (UTC)

[edit] Red flower

Most socialist parties use that as the symbol. Don't worry about the copyright, I reckon its fitting for public use.

Most social democratic parties use that as a symbol. But it is not representative of all the branches of socialism. I would suggest a red flag. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

But then again, red can symbolize everything from Nazis, communists, socialists, and republicans. I like the red flower. Yaanch 16:06, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Omission?

Is there a reason why Democratic socialism isn't included in the list? This box appears on that article, and it seems to be topically related. Thesquire 10:45, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Entry points

See Ideology#Political_ideologies – Kaihsu 19:32, 2005 May 16 (UTC)

[edit] Should mixed economy be included

RJII seems to think that it should be included based on his definition of mixed economy which is a "mix of capitalism and socialism". What do other people think? My source is that none of the definitions in google define it as such with the exception of the Wikipedia article (which is now changed). For reference, the reason RJII seems to want to include this is so that he can put the socialism infobox on the mixed economy page. Perhaps he will let us know if this is not the case. - FrancisTyers 02:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

"My" definition is the same as the definition you just put in the mixed economy article: "An economic system that allows for the simultaneous operation of publicly and privately owned enterprises" In socialism, the means of production are publicly owned --in capitalism they're privately owned. When you mix the two together ..tada! A mixed economy! RJII 02:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

In that case, isn't a mixed economy just as capitalist as it is socialist? --AaronS 15:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. It's, in the ideal, one half socialist and one half capitalist. Half of the means of production are privately owned and the other half are socially owned or controlled. "Mixed economy" is in the "liberalism" box (I'm the one that put it there, actually) so it should also be in the socialism box. RJII 03:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Where do you get "half and half"? "Part and part" doesn't mean half and half, since the size of each part is unspecified. You're just making the "ideal" up in your head. And just saying something is "part" socialism hardly merits inclusion here. Find an actual group of socialists that support a mixed economy, and maybe you'll have a case. Sarge Baldy 15:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I put it in the Influences section. If a mixed economy is a mix (doesn't have to be "half and half" --i was just speaking in terms of the ideal) of socialism and capitalism, then obviously it's an influence. RJII 22:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] revert of additions

please discuss removals. Sam Spade 16:21, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nazism

Give a source saying that "nazism is a type of socialism" is a widely-accepted view and you can insert it. -- infinity0 16:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

What does widely accepted have to do w anything? You've seen my sources, and TDC has offered to come up w even more if you need them. Go read Hayek. Sam Spade 16:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Because adding them to a template implies they are widely accepted as that. Usually, we don't put fringe stuff onto a template because there is no space for it - a template only contains important info. YOu are the one trying to add stuff - burden of proof is on you. -- infinity0 16:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hayek is not an authoritative source on Nazism and Socialism. He's an economist, not a historian or politicla philosopher. -- infinity0 16:29, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Take a look over the list of branches of socialism in the socialism article. There isn't enough room to include all the widely-accepted ones, let alone the controversial ones! We should limit ourselves to those that are both widely accepted and important.

As you can see, Hayek is a political philosopher. -- Vision Thing -- 14:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Nazism isnt a form of socialism and anti-semitism isnt a part of the socialist ideology,so stop putting these terms in. -Red_Bastard-

I really don't understand why Nazism, Facism and Anti-semitism should be included into the list either. I don't believe that any supportor of socialism will be appreciative of it being listed as part of their ideology. Such movements have always been active in Anti-Facism and Anti-Racism campaigns. And I hope an admin can help out here, there's a revert war going right now. --A10203040 14:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Both The Middle East Conflict Man and Red Bastard have been blocked for 24 hours. However we have a new POV pusher (or sock puppet) called Carroteater117 over at Socialism. // Liftarn

Sigh..Carroteater117<- pictures of Saddam and Milosovich, smells exactly like The Middle East Conflict Man. --A10203040 16:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revolutionary Socialism

I've temporarily removed the link to Revolutionary Socialism until it's clear that it is significant enough to be mentioned. The article unfortunately seems not to describe revolutionary socialism in general, but the opinion of a very small group. See its talk page (and please join the discussion there if you are knowledgeable in these matters). Qwertyus 23:34, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organisation

I alphabetized the lists, so, in the future, if you add or remove something, make sure things are alphabetical. It's a better organisational system than "arbitrary". --Yossarian 04:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks strange. "Criticism of socialism" the first Key issue? "Anarchism" above "Marxism" in the Influence section? First and Second international are seperated by a "List of socialists".

Alphabetical ordering works fine for sections of 15+ items, for a quick search, but not for sections of 4 or 5 items. ActiveSelective 07:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but if you try to organise them in terms of "importance" it becomes a subjective matter that a lot of people will get crabby over. I know it looks a tad funny, but I find it's better than an arbitrary list (even a short one), and less contentious than listing them by "importance". Just saves editors future headaches, as I see it. If there's another neutral way of organising this that's also more aesthetically pleasing, go for it. Arranging "Anarchism" above "Marxism" means nothing if its merely for alphanumeric organisational consistency. I should say, though, that I moved the "List of Socialists" to the bottom. You were right, that particular seperation looked too weird. --Yossarian 13:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm. I don't see no people crabby over it. Still looks strange. But I like your flag, by the way. ActiveSelective 13:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it had been organised by importance before I changed it (for example, I doubt Owenism would have been put above Marxism if that were so). I just assumed the lists were compiled with no real organisation in mind. I was suggesting that listing them by importance would be the most likely alternate to an alphabetical (or the like) system, and that if someone tried to implement it as such, people would get crabby. So I put it in alphabetical order, just for the sake of presumpting such a problem, and the fact that I personally like organisational details...like alphabetical orders ;) I actually doubt anyone will notice that they're alphabetical (the lists aren't really long enough, as you said), but if anyone percieves a political bias, rather than an organisational one, they can just be pointed to the talk page for an explanation. But, and I think we can both agree, my flag is nifty. Cheers --Yossarian 15:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Still a little confused over the Scrabble thing...also, why is the Scrabble system better for that grouping? Sorry, I don't mean to be bloody minded. I'm just trying to make sure things make sense. --Yossarian 08:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, alphanumerical ordering (again!) is too eurocentric. Obvious, duh. But you're right, I know what you mean, the thing still looks funny, indeed, now there are still two sections sorted alphabetically. Don't worry. We'll sort that out. You'll agree that picking a sort method at random is a guaranteed POV-free way of sorting, instead of doing everything only the eurocentric way. And, accidentally and luckaly, it just happens that this particular sorting there makes the section also look better. It accidentally makes it more logical, like the "key issues" section not starting with "criticism" anymore (that's just like, for example, the holocaust article not starting with "holocaust denial" anymore). ActiveSelective 10:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yesssss...but, by the same token, the Scrabble way is (arguably) American in bias (the values in Scrabble were assigned by an American using the frequencies of letters in American newspapers, the game is owned by an American company, its mostly played in the United States of America...). But, then, if we wanted it to not be European or American, we might sort it the way Chinese speakers sort logograms (something of an impossibility since English speakers don't use logograms to write English). But then it would be Sinocentric. But that's me playing devil's advocate. More practically, the Scrabble method is overly complex. If someone wanted to add something to the list, s/he'd have to sit down and calculate every letter's value, add it up, add fifty points for a seven letter word, and then the thing you said about 3x word value and 2x letter value, which I'm actually not sure I understand (this all assumes they know how to play Scrabble). The problem with sorting them "logically" (in terms of "influence"), is that it represents someone's (or a group of someones') bias(es). So, to put it plainly: If one sorts Anarchism over Marxism (for example) because A comes before M, it has no bearing on any endorsed importance attributed to either movements because the organisational system is based on the progression of letters in the English Latin alphabet. Okay, maybe it is Eurocentric (simply for the fact that Europeans use it), but it has no inherant political bias (like a "logic" or "importance" based progression) other than the fact that it evolved in Europe because Europeans use alphabets rather than logograms or hieroglyphics (Semetic languages also use alphabets, and I'm fairly certain (but don't quote me) their speakers occasionally use the progressions of those alphabets to list things). Sidelining a simple organisational tool because it's European would be rather shortsighted. I can definitely understand your reservation about the seperation of the "Internationals" at the bottom...but I just don't see why its a big deal to have the Influences section set out alphabetically. It's easy to do, it's not biased , and if any special provisions need to be made (such as the Internationals getting seperated...but that has more to do with organizing by like subjects) it's not too hard to do. Soooo...there's my little essay on this subject...I think I'm about spent ;). Again, I don't mean to sound bloody minded. I'm just hopelessly confused at this point. Cheers --Yossarian 10:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are confused. Semitic languages use consonantal alphabets, without vowels. They also put letters in a different order. The letter Z is the seventh in the Hebrew alphabet, for example. ActiveSelective 11:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Z(eta) is also the sixth letter of the Greek alphabet, what's yer point? I was merely saying that they (Semites) might organise such things in terms of their alphabet's order. Why would they organize it using the Latin alphabet's order? Rather, why does it matter that Z is the seventh letter? And lacking vowels hasn't got much to do with alphabetical order (as far as I know). Are you under the impresion that I was suggesting alphabetical order is only determined by the Latin alphabet? Or that I was suggesting that's how others should organize lists with their own alphabets (Alpha, Beta, Delta, as opposed to Alpha, Beta, Gamma)? Alphabetical order is determined by whatever alphabet you're using, I believe...I wouldn't arrange a list of words spelt with Hebrew letters with the order of the Latin alphabet. Perhaps what we have here is a failure to communicate with each other... --Yossarian 12:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Start over

Let's start fresh. I have to admit, at this point, I have absoloutely no idea how you're coming up with these systems. No idea how (your version of) the Scrabble sort works; no idea what a "Semitic" sort would be. I'm assuming that, for whatever reason, alphabetical order is out (I still don't know why, with the exception of the International thing). Well, why don't we think of an organiser that's just as simple, which everyone can understand? --Yossarian

Heh. Wow. Let me see if I understand the argument so far. You're (ActiveSelective) arguing over the order of listings sort method on the English language Wikipedia and are against alphabetical ordering? Call me a anglophile but this seems like rather a logical choice since, you know, the language we'd be reading it in (and, well, apparently, discussing it in as well) seems to me, to be, IN FACT, ENGLISH. *cough*

Sorry. I get a little riled up over this kind of thing, but you see, this is the English-language section of Wikipedia, so I always figured that the endorsment of the English language was kind of a foregone conclusion. Since that's the language we're reading. For instance, I don't think you'd find any dictionary, NPOV or not, to be listed in Scrabble values. No matter how hilarious neutral it might be. I agree that leaving Anarchism in there first over Marxism is a little unfair ((OH NOES!)) but that's just the way the turnip tumbles sometimes. In the case of 'Holocaust Denial' listed first in the holocaust template, well, that's just plain nutty. There are special cases for things, I just can't really suppose that, in all fairness, this is one of them. Anyway, that's my ten kopeks. You two crazy kids can figure it out on your own, I'm sure. --Oceanhahn 07:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC) //EDIT: As for 'Semitic' organization, I'm afraid I don't understand. You're listing according the... the last letter of the last word?

[edit] Cultural Aspects

I have been creating a series of Irish political templates on issues like Irish Nationalism, Republicanism, Unionism, Monarchism. One thing that struck me as useful to link, but which is missing on this and other templates, is a link to cultural aspects. Socialism has strong cultural features which have been used to communicate messages and concepts. It can be found in everything from songs like The Red Flag to particular paradigm shift theatre (key plays in the early 20th century promoting the concept of the proletariat fighting the bosses, etc which fundamentally changed viewpoints), to key publications. It might be useful to have one or two such cultural links. Other areas like Christian Democracy or Social Democracy often hasn't had a cultural aspect, but socialism has had a particularly strong one, with socialist states often using strong cultural aspects (songs, images, stories) to communicate its message. Any thoughts? FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Utopian Socialism

I've added Utopian socialism because it belongs in the template, either as a current of socialist thought, or at the very least as an influence. The ideas of Robert Owen (to whom we owe a lot of terms relating to socialism (and for whose ideas the term 'socialism' itself was coined, who helped organise one of the first British trade unions in the Grand National Consolidated Trades Union, and who was one of the inspirations of the Rochdale Pioneers and the British Co-operative movement), Charles Fourier, and others were the intellectual leaders of the Pre-Marxian socialist movement, and (for example, in Robert Owen's "Report to the County of Lanark") laid the foundations for a number of ideas which were expanded upon later by Marx and Engels, and later Marxian Socialists. Similarly, the lessons learned in failed social experiments (like New Harmony) informed the Socialist theories and institutions that followed. Finally, if you read - for example - Beatrice Webb's "'The Co-operative Movement in Great Britain," you will note that the early Fabian socialists (and some of the later Fabians, like G.D.H. Cole) were famliar with, in the case of Webb claim an intellectual herritage which can be traced to, and borrow some ideas from, Owen. In turn, Fabian ideas have informed the ideas of various strains of social-democratic, labourite, and progressive thought in the English speaking world (and - in particular - in Britain).

Given these reasons and, in the words of G.D.H. Cole, prior to the 1840s, "The word 'Socialist... meant 'Owenite', and had hardly, in Great Britain, any other meaning," (Cole, G.D.H., “A Century of Co-Operation”, Oxford: George Allen & Unwin Ltd., 1944, p. 28.) it would be a huge oversight not to include Utopian socialism in the template. - AmishThrasher 01:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Politics portal & List of socialist ideas

Why is the politics portal being deleted? That's not redundant. As for the "list of socialist ideas"...well, that's a little difficult. Yes, the template is a "list of socialist ideas", but the article would, potentially, be more comprehensive. However, I don't think it's necessary to include, as the aritcle is more of a list of ideologies than a list of ideas. If that changed, maybe it could work. --Yossarian 02:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

• The reason I deleted the politics portal is that it's not specifically about socialism. The Communism template has a Communism portal, and Fascism has a Fascism portal. However, I see that the Politics Portal is in the Conservativism template, so I can see the justification. Maybe it's time for people to create a Socialism portal. I renamed the "List of socialist ideas to "List of socialist ideologies." It wasn't a problem because nothing was linked to it yet. I re-added it to the template because it is a good resource and lists much more than what is in (or should be in) the template and socialism-related See Also sections.Spylab 14:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

Nobody supports your ridiculous assertion that a politics portal has nothing to do with one of the most influential political ideologies of modern histroy. Thus, please stop this campaign of deletions. -- WGee

• Now you're the one who has a reading problem. Above I wrote that I now I can see the justification, since there is no Socialism portal. Please stop this campaign against all of my edits, no matter their worthiness. You don't have the massive consensus that you pretend to have. Spylab 14:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

I am not campaigning against your edits "no matter their worthiness". I'm sure you've made more constructive edits to other articles, but virtually all of your contributions to socialism-related articles have compromised their quality. -- WGee 18:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simpler version

I disagree with this edit by User:172. For four reasons:

1. It was a far going edit which was not discussed.
2. It assumes that the template communism is a model to be strived at, while it is actually the result of a compromise and not an ideal template.
3. It puts the template out of line with other political ideology templates template:anarchism, template:liberalism, template:christian democracy, which are colourful and sometimes illustrated.
4. The current version is just prettier.

- C mon 12:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

None of these reasons has anything to do with writing an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is about the readers, not the editors. Templates here are supposed to be simple, readable, and professional looking. 172 | Talk 15:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Creating a visually appealing encyclopedia is part of growing our market share. We don't have to strip everything down just because we're free. Creativity and well layed-out pages are essential. The template should not have been changed. Indeed, since it wasn't discussed, it was a violation of Wikipedia policy to change it. --Tjss(Talk) 18:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Your reasoning makes no sense, the communist template is disputed by some. See here. You have no grounds to enforce this, but your own preference, while the make up of this template has never been disputed before. As a reader I prefer some colours (consistently, well done, no rainbows in templates) to lighten up large texts. Did you hold a query under wikipedia-readers which template they prefer? I don't think so: this is your personal preference. C mon 16:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I like 172’s version better. Legibility should have priority over kitsch. —xyzzy_n 16:43, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Do colors have anything to do with legibility? No. Yaanch^Speak! 00:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel that user:172 went too far on this change. He made it bland and boring. The more interesting red template attracted people's attention and it may attract some more readers to the topic of socialism. Maybe, the boring format he added is a reflection of his profession as a historian. History can be dry sometimes, but when we have the chance to make it a bit more "colorful", we should do it. Anyone disagree? If not i may revert it to the interesting version, but while keeping the legit additions to the template. Yaanch 02:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

A reader who sees the template is very likely already reading about socialism, so there is little need to attract further. If the template was located somewhere unobtrusive, it could be more colourful, but since it is generally used as a float in the article text, it must not distract from the article. After all, we should assume that the reader is indeed directly interested in the topic that is currently displayed, not in the myriad related topics. (So, actually, the template would work better as a wide box in ‘See also’ sections…) —xyzzy_n 11:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The current version look horrible. Appropriate use of colour and sizing of text is very useful in making the purpose and hierarchy of a template legible. Warofdreams talk 03:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, old version was much better. -- Vision Thing -- 12:48, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I too must add my voice to those criticizing the new template layout. It is, simply put, ugly. Not only that, but it does not follow the long-standing convention used by all other political ideology templates on wikipedia. I have always been an advocate of universal, consistent standards. Thus, 172, if you wish to remove colours and symbols from this template, you must also remove colours and symbols from template:liberalism, template:conservatism, template:libertarianism, template:Christian Democracy, template:Greens, template:fascism, template:Nazism, template:progressivism and many others. -- Nikodemos 04:02, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to single me out. Xyzzy said it the best. Actually, I like [the new] version better. Legibility should have priority over kitsch. Bars of red distract too much, especially in a context more complex than this one. And speaking of the "purpose and hierarchy of a template," the categories of the old template ("influences," "key issues," "ideas," were conceptually incoherent). 172 | Talk 02:08, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason I single you out is because you are the only person advocating the simpler version (other than Xyzzy, who is not here any more). As I said before, consistency is paramount in my thinking. I don't care very much how the template looks like as long as the same standard is applied to all political templates. So I have two choices: 1. Struggle to keep the old layout of this template. 2. Struggle to change the layout of all other templates. The first is obviously easier, so that is what I will do. I am sorry, but this is something I cannot compromise on, especially since I have the backing of the majority of editors (and, in matters of pure aesthetics, the majority should rule). -- Nikodemos 02:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem as if Xyzzy has left Wikipedia. He/she seems much more active than I have been recently. [1] The old version does not contribute to standardization, given the aesthetic differences in the "kitch" across political templates. Anyway, since you restored the new categories-- the important matter here, I no longer have much of an inclination to spend time on the issue. 172 | Talk 15:24, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the other templates, libertarianism and fascism seem the most legible. I suggest a new aesthetic design based on either of those two, rather than restoring the old one, which resembles some of the flasy graphics of leftwing youth league websites. 172 | Talk 15:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the article in Encarta, modern socialist parties have distanced themselves from the red flag. "While a significant percentage of the working class continued to vote for the parties of the centre and of the right, socialist parties increasingly sought to attract middle-class centrist voters. To do so they discarded many of the symbols and rhetoric of their past, such as the red flag or the designation of members as comrades, which they shared, embarrassingly, with communists." Since it isn't representative for all socialists I will remove it from the template. -- Vision Thing -- 20:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

From now on -- Vision Thing --, i recommend making a consensus before making large changes such as removing the image from the template.. Yaanch^Speak! 01:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Improving the encyclopedia comes before bureaucratic procedures on talk pages. VisionThing's citation of Encarta is accurate. It is very difficult to find iconography embraced by all major groups describing themselves as socialism. I support VisionThing's removal of the (cartoonish) red flag picture. 172 | Talk 05:53, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that his citation was correct, but I'm also sure if i googled the subject i could find supporters of the red flag for socialism! Im just saying that a general census would be recommended. If i found a citation saying that all templates are better off with colors and images, would that give me the right to change the template with out anybody's else's opinion? No. Yaanch^Speak! 00:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

While many socialists have distanced themselves from the red flag, none have outright rejected it. The red flag is a relatively uncontroversial symbol - all branches of socialism have used it at some point in the past. Many of them do not use it any more, but, again, failure to use a symbol does not constitute rejection. -- Nikodemos 09:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Nikodemos, this template should have an image (just because that makes it look better) and the red flag is our best choice, as it is both representative of socialism and the image is free. Social-democratic symbols like the rose in fist, should be on the template social democracy (note that there is no free version of the rose in fist). C mon 09:41, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm actually working on a picture of a rose that is similar enough to the social democratic symbol to be used on the social democracy template. -- Nikodemos 09:54, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that your idea would work well, but of course i would have to see it first ;) Yaanch^Speak! 00:08, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Libertarian socialism

Don't you think 'libertarian socialism' should be included in socialism template's current trends?

No, because Libertarian Socialism is actually a strand of {{anarchism}}. C mon 09:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

A user added it again to this template. I will delete it again. Yaanch^Speak! 21:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

And I'll add it back again. Anarchism is a strand of socialism, so the fact that libertarian socialism overlaps with anarchism is no reason to keep it off this template. VoluntarySlave 22:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I've changed my mind, for me Libertarian Socialism can be on this template, not because anarchism is a strand of socialism (that's just nonsense) but because libertarian socialism encompases some strands of anarchism and some of socialism. C mon 23:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] red flag

what happened to the red flag on this template?--Crocadog 20:24, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

That is being discussed here C mon 20:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Twice

Why is "Utopian socialism" on this template twice? If no one knows why, or if no one defends it, i will delete one of the links. Yaanch 22:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Since the most recent image was deleted i think we need to decide what image we want on this template; we should have one. Before, we had a red flag but i think red is to ambiguous because it can represent communism, republicans, Nazis, and soviets. I think the red rose in a fist is the best idea because that symbol is only socialist. Any ideas? Yaanch^Speak! 02:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

An image is not a requirement. Many templates do not have one. The rose is inappropriate because it is associated with the Socialist International, which is at odds with many groups describing themselves as socialist. 172 | Talk 06:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand that you are against ascetics in templates or anything that could take the reader away from the article. But personally i feel that images contribute to it. Yaanch^Speak! 19:59, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trade Unions

I think trade unions should be included on this template, because they are an important group of socialist organizations. Socialist politics is more than political parties, for socialists, the struggle between workers' unions and employers is also a political struggle. C mon 20:29, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Besides, trade unions are listed under "related subjects", and they certainly are a related subject. -- Nikodemos 20:44, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

c'mon, niko, what trade union do you two belong to? Conman3000 20:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I m not a member of a trade union , although I sympathize with the Alternative for Union (AVV), whose founder is currently member of the Tweede Kamer for the social-democratic PvdA. More importantly however the major trade unions in the Netherlands are the large social-democratic FNV and the smaller Christian democratic CNV. So for me politically trade unions and socialist politics are related. C mon 21:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Trade unions are not anti-capitalist, though. Conman3000 21:14, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Neither are all socialists, like market socialists and social democrats. C mon 21:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Some trade unions are or were socialist organisations (for varying values of ‘socialist’). Some try or tried to be neutral. Some are or were anti-socialist (for varying values of ‘socialist’). My impression is that the relationship between trade unions and socialism is quite one-sided to the effect that while trade unions are useful for recruitment, organisation and, of course, strikes, they are really just the means to an end (the end depending on the exact value of ‘socialism’) or a natural phenomenon signifying the imminent whatever of the proletariat (for values of ‘socialism’ that include ideas like class struggle), or both. I suggest linking to syndicalism instead, since that’s an actual ideology and not just a form of organisation. By the way, trade union leaves a lot to be desired… I found [2] more enlightening, even though it’s in Russian and has a Marxist-Leninist POV. —xyzzy_n 22:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Trade unions exists to protect the wages of the workkers in the trades, they do not seek equal distribution of wealth, they seek more wealth for themselves. Conman3000 06:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

In the Netherlands and the United Kingdom socialism evolved out of the trade union movement, ties between labour unions and socialist parties in Austria, the United Kingdom, Sweden etc. are very strong.

Conman3000 has a narrow view of what trade unions do, in the Netherlands, fi trade unions have and still do participate in movements that advocate social change, the FNV set up the 1980s marches against nuclear weapons and the 2000s Dutch Social Forums.

I can obviously live with an additional link to syndicalism, but I don't think it can replace trade unions.

- C mon 06:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Social change does not mean socialism. Conman3000 18:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Socialism by country

Do we need room to discuss specific countries on this template, as in the In specific countries-subheader. I think that templates like {{Europe in topic}} f.i. can better be used for this (when it comes to European countries), because the inclusion of these countries is just arbitrary: why the Netherlands or Canada, but not Germany (whose socialist tradition was arguably the most influential) or Sweden (whose welfare state is a model for many socialists and social-democrats) or the USSR which also claimed to be socialist. I don't see the use of this specific countries subheader, esp. seen the countries included. C mon 07:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Both template:liberalism and template:conservatism have sections dedicated to [ideology] by country. We should follow the same standard here (or else change the standard in those other templates). The countries included are simply the countries that have articles on their respective socialist movements. The reason Germany is not featured is because there is no Socialism in Germany article (though I agree with you that there should be one). The same goes for Socialism in Russia. -- Nikodemos 08:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

On template liberalism this regionalization is not overly appreciated see here. I think we should start here and create a trend: no to this non-sensically regionalist perspective. For once let international socialism take the iniative! ;) C mon 09:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, that discussion has been dead for 8 months... I'd still rather keep the national variants, if only because two of them (Britain and USA) are very good articles that deserve the attention. -- Nikodemos 09:36, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disputing their quality. But I'm saying that the current inclusion of countries is arbitrary at best (just because they have articles...) and anglo-centric at worst (why canada? New Zealand? there are way more influential countries). But if no one feels so, I'll leave the matter. C mon 12:58, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to concur with C mon here- even if the discussion is old. The as-stated arbitrary choice of countries is certainly not a great way to do things. Either change it, or start Socialism in Germany and Socialism in Russia, I think.--EJFox 10:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a note, on templates such as Template:Communism, Template:Libertarianism and Template:Social_democracy there are no sections by country. -- Vision Thing -- 21:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)