Talk:Snowtown murders

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To-do list for Snowtown murders: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh

[edit] Checklist

This is a (tentative) list of things to do to get to FAC standard. Please cross off as completed.

  • Create an introductory paragraph.
  • Refactor into appropriate, more detailed sections.
  • Possible sections include: Background; The Murders; Perpetrators; Victims; Trial; Sentencing; Impact.
  • Reference extensively, using footnotes and cites.

Contents

[edit] I can't see how that map is Fair Use

I really can't see how that map if Fair Use. BBC material is most certainly copyrighted. Remove? Shermozle 16:26, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Not sure on what we can say is fair use - so new hand drawn map added by way of replacement Brookie:The grass on the hill 19:23, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
If it will be more useful, we can use this completely homemade one (now used in Snowtown article). --Lisa 08:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Nice map for the Snowtown article. Does this article need a Snowtown location map at all? If the article needs a map, should it be a new one showing Snowtown, Salisbury North, Kersbrook and Lower Light, at least. Does the map really tell the reader anything relevant not included in the words? I think the distances are more important to this story than a state overview. Readers who want to place the towns on a global context can click through to the place articles. --Scott Davis Talk 09:12, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Makes sense, Scott - I agree. Lisa 09:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not sure if this is useful...

... but I wrote an article on Kuro5hin a while ago. If you want you can use whatever material you want. Article is at [1]. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks - I'll have a look! :) A curate's egg 09:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Added link to the article A curate's egg 09:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further explanation?

Quote: "On May 21, 1999, a day after the discovery of the first eight bodies, three men - John Justin Bunting, Mark Ray Haydon and Robert Joe Wagner - were arrested and charged with murder in Adelaide Magistrates Court. On June 2, James Spyridon Vlassakis was also charged with murder."

How did the police come to arrest these people? Were they suspected and interviewed (if so, why were they suspects?), or did they confess voluntarily? More explanation needs to be given about this area of the case, so if anyone knows (I don't) please add it to the article! plattopustalk 09:17, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] COTF?

So ... what actually needs doing, here?--fuddlemark 15:44, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to add this to peer review to get the general community's views on what this article needs to be a FAC. If anyone's got any objections, feel free to berate me ... nnnnow. --fuddlemark 20:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
All I can say is that, as is, this article is a long way off from becoming a FA. A substantial expansion, with extensive referencing, would be the first place to start. This should be relatively easy to do, as there should be voluminous sources. (That said, this doesn't necessarily mean I will be able to help ;-)). I think a peer-review could be a way of developing ideas on how to go about improving the article, and specific points may be suggested, but there may need to another peer-review down the track once finished, and before proceeding to FAC.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 01:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
I've created a brief to-do list. Please add/alter.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 01:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Suggest a format for cleanup (Lisa 06:52, 27 August 2005 (UTC))

Background
criminal investigation before May 1999
summary of: a. disappearances, b. tortures, etc, c. murders/discovery, location info, barrels reportage, d. post-events, community reactions, etc, e. trials/sentencing
criminal investigation following May 1999 (the whole investigation by SAPOL was apparently 5 years, not sure of when til when. The trials also took til 5.5 years after the snowtown discovery to finish up)
Detail of criminal activity
tortures
murders
fraudulent welfare claims
Victims
Clinton Trezise (d. Aug 1992)
Ray Davies (d.Dec 1995)
Michael Gardener (d. Aug 1997)
Barry Lane (d. Oct 1997)
Thomas Trevilyan (d. 1997)
Gavin Porter (d. Apr 1998)
Troy Youde (d. Sep 1998)
Fred Brooks (d. Sep 1998)
Gary O'Dwyer (d. Nov 1998)
Elizabeth Haydon (d. Nov 1998)
David Johnson (d. May 1999)
Perpetrators + others invovled
John Justin Bunting
Robert Joe Wagner
James Spyridon Vlassakis
Mark Ray Haydon
Trials
according to police, apparently the murders were primarily motivated by general hatred of gays, paedophiles, fat people, etc, rather than any specific motive.
juror had to abstain due to horror at evidence
Community impact??
bunting & wagner quoted as being Australia's worst serial killers
horrified/fascinated public due to the manner of bodies being stored in barrels
impact on Snowtown
impact on Salisbury nth??
Looks good. Pity it took nearly the two weeks for us to get going. Go ahead and start editing :-) I'll try to copyedit as you go. As far as I know, there's not much effect on Salisbury North beyond bulldozing the house in question. --Scott Davis Talk 09:32, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming / Relevance of Snowtown section at top

Really sorry to ask this so late in the piece, (working on this article makes me want to vomit or something!) but does it truly make sense to have "Snowtown murders" as the title to this article. Perhaps this title could redirect to "Bodies in Barrels murders" with other necessary redirects.

Being a resident of Snowtown at the time of this discovery it was remarked that the press was a bit unfair on us considering none of the murders occurred in Snowtown. But then it seems it came to be known by this name... So I tried not to let this affect my NPOV :) and the decision on naming the article.

But then I noticed that none of the links down the bottom mention "Snowtown murders" in their title. Perhaps "Bodies in Barrels" is actually the lasting name by which we know this event?

Either way I am unsure that the first sub section should be dedicated to Snowtown. Information about Snowtown is most relevant when we are trying to convey the impact the discovery of barrels had, but not useful for most other details of this case.

Thoughts? -- before I go ahead --Lisa 01:46, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Renaming to 1999 Bodies in barrels case or similar seems like a good idea. --Scott Davis Talk 02:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm not opposed, although I might just say that "Bodies in (the) Barrels" is always going to sound staggeringly gruesome. As the more emotive term for the crimes, it's always going to be better remembered, but is it the more common? But again, I'm not opposed, and I understand Lisa's reasoning.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 14:35, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
And you don't think the term "murder" is gruesome too? Is there any other name? --Scott Davis Talk 14:50, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
The term "murder" isn't exactly "gruesome" these days: turn on your telly for half an hour and, like as not, you'll have heard somebody say "murder" (and it probably won't have any effect on you), but how often do you hear about "bodies in barrels"? BiB does strike me as somewhat macabre, although that may be a point in its favour (cf. Exploding whale and Crushing by elephant). Personally I'd never heard of BiB until this discussion.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by MarkGallagher (talk • contribs) 00:32, 28 August 2005.
Perhaps I've become immune to the term, but "murder" is generic in any case. "Bodies in barrels" is certainly evocative - I shudder to type it. But that's an aside. The real issue is which is better. To me, the best title is that which had/has more currency. I struggle to recall which was used more often, which is odd, given I sat in on one of the hearings (not the whole thing, heaven forbid). Lisa has made the point that the links currently in the article refer to "bodies in (the) barrels", which has validity. Are there any other suggestions?--Cyberjunkie | Talk 15:24, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Suppression orders

Did the suppression orders apply everywhere, or only in South Australia? I thought maybe editors from interstate would have access to information we dont't. --Scott Davis Talk 01:20, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

My understanding is that they can apply only to South Australia. However, I think the effect is much detail has not been released at all. So the knowledge of interstaters on this is probably as limited as ours. --Cyberjunkie | Talk 06:19, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I just realised how silly my comment was: if it had been aired in court, then it had been released. It's just media wasn't allowed to report on it.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 11:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

There was no suppression order interstate. I remember when I was still living in Adelaide and was in Sydney when Snowtown was in committal. The media were all over it in Sydney, reporting live from Adelaide. There are also books on Snowtown and the trial that are sold here (in Melbourne) and I have also seen them in Queensland, with a sticker on the front saying "Not to be sold in SA". (I thought the supression orders were removed a few weeks ago). Frances76 11:33, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I know some were lifted, but I'm not sure if all were.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 11:37, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cannibalism?

Does anyone have a reference for the recent addition that David Johnson was cooked and partially eaten? I don't have either book, but none of the online references support it that I can see. --Scott Davis Talk 07:21, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

It's breaking news. The suppression orders are slowly falling one by one. Gosh, I don't know if I want them too. It's gonna get a whole lot more depraved from here on out. However, it is only alleged that Johnson was eaten. Somebody, I forget whom, claimed that he found one of the killers cooking his flesh. I'll see if I can find a reference - perhaps on Factiva. Apparently this cannibalism thing was reported overseas and interstate.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 08:49, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Found it: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200509/s1463414.htm --Scott Davis Talk 09:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Good. Factiva was turning up dry.--Cyberjunkie | Talk 09:02, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually this was already in one of our references because I remember reading it. Maybe it was not a proper news item where I read it (so much for the suppression orders). Who wants the task of adding this into the article... Lisa 23:46, 19 September 2005 (UTC) Woops I see it's already there. Lisa 23:51, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Australia's worst serial killer? + wolf creek? + ACA

The assertion that these were Australia's "worst" serial killer is not an absolute truth. It has similarly been asserted that Ivan Milat is Australia's worst serial killer, in relation to the backpacker murders (although that case is far more controversial, as there are doubts that he did it alone, and hence doubts as to whether he is actually a serial killer). Regardless, I wonder if this statement could be researched, and perhaps cleaned up.

I have recently been made aware that wolf creek (movie) may have been at least partially based on this set of murders - with the closing credits stating explicitly that it was based on a set of murders committed in 1999. The movie itself has similarities to the Snowtown murders with regards to the torture and such, and has more similarities to this set of murders than to the backpacker murders. This came to prominence in 1999, and hence it could be what they were referring to? Similarly, when people refer to the backpacker murders they often say "1992 backpacker murders" when in reality they were 1988-1992. I think it is the same kind of thing, but would like to see it researched better. I had an edit war with cyberjunkie, because he didn't look at my references when I was writing about that. Thankfully that seems to be resolved now.

Just another thing. I have a vague recollection of a report on A Current Affair about a group of people who were ripping off Centrelink by collecting money for dead relatives, and that these people ended up committing murders. Was this the Snowtown murders? Or was that something else entirely? I didn't see it mentioned here, so presume it was either something else, or else nobody has thought to write from that angle. I did see that there was a line that said "for no other reason than to collect their pension cheques" which suggests that it was the same story. If it is, then I would suggest that a lot more could be added to this with regards to their motive for committing the murders. Zordrac 19:48, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

That was this case and yes it should be mentioned here. As far as I remember, ripping off Centrelink was initially considered as a motive for the murder, but when more information came out they just realised that these guys were psychos who started to enjoy torture and killing for its own sake. I think they tortured Lane or the others for their personal details and numbers so they could keep claiming their centrelink payments. If you have time to research it and add it in that would be great, Zordrac. Donama 03:05, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
The URL for Wolf Creek should be removed. It's totally irrelevant to the article, and has no bearing on the incidents in question. Wolf Creek is based on the Ivan Milat murders, not the Snowtown murders. Teutonic Knight 08:34, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
It's inconclusive, not that I mind if the Wolf Creek link is removed. Donama 02:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC) From Wolf Creek article:

Wolf Creek was marketed as being "based on true events". Although the producers have not disclosed which incidents inspired the film, some media sources have speculated that it may have been based on the backpacker murders of 1989-92, the Peter Falconio disappearance of 2001, and/or the 1992-99 Snowtown murders. The similarities of the film with the Falconio case led the defence team of the man charged (later convicted) with his murder, Bradley John Murdoch, to obtain a court order preventing Wolf Creek's release in the Northern Territory during the trial. The film's director and writer has stated that Wolf Creek is not based on any single event.

I also recall the mention of Centrelink benefits as part of the motive for this crime, and here's a handy link to confirm it: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/09/08/1062901996929.html
From the article: "Behind her back Bunting called her "the village idiot" but strung her along so she would help him steal money from the bank account of another victim by impersonating her to claim Centrelink benefits."
Teutonic Knight

[edit] Comment/question

It seems that the various victims may have been killed for little more than their pension money. Police profilers later concluded that the murders were essentially motiveless and were inspired by hatred towards certain groups in society, such as homosexuals, paedophiles and the obese, rather than any specific motive. This isn't really explained in the article, and it also isn't cited. Were the victims homosexuals, paedophiles, or obese? -Elizabennet 04:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

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