Talk:Snowdon

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I'm no expert on railways, but shouldn't it be "rack and pinion"?

"Rack Railway" is an acceptable abbreviation. AHEMSLTD 21:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

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How about a grid reference for Snowdon? I think the grid used by the Ordnance Survey is pretty standard. Magnus 10:05 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Name Origin 2 How long? 3 First time 4 Time immemorial 5 Does Yr Wyddfa only apply to the summit? 6 Snowdon Gang Culture

[edit] Name Origin

How about an explanation of the English name Snowdon as well as the Welsh one since they are so obviously unconnected?--JBellis 18:07, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How long?

While the article discusses several routes up, none of them mention how many miles or kilometers they are. Rmhermen 05:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First time

I am making my first ascent this coming Saturday 12th August using the Ranger Path with my son, Sean, my brother-in-law Steve and my oldest friend Danny.Hope the weather stays fine....Can't wait! Tony White: Liverpool

[edit] Time immemorial

Surely statements like "Snowdon has probably been climbed since time immemorial" violate Wikipedia:Verifiability? Aside from the fact that it's a vague and ambiguous phrase, it's probably more verifiable, and more likely, to say that it hasn't habitually been climbed throughout history, since before the 18th century it was very unusual for people to climb mountains other than for reasons of necessity. (See, for example, Robert Macfarlane's Mountains of the Mind.) If the assersion comes from Terry Marsh, we should at least say "according to Terry Marsh, Snowdon has probably been climbed..." – but it seems an odd statement to make in an encyclopedia. Better to stick to the uncontrovertible documented facts. --Blisco 18:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It violates both verifiability and neutral point of view policies. I would cut that out entirely (since its purely speculation) and start the sentence at "The first recorded ascent..." Sticking to the facts is always a good way to go. Gwernol 18:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Such a statement need not violate WP:V, provided it is referenced. Wikipedia's mission is not really to report the truth, but rather to report that which is widely accepted as true.

In this case, "time immemorial" is not mentioned verbatim by Marsh: the exact quote is that "No one knows when the first ascent of Snowdon took place", which is followed by the records of 1639 and the 13th century. It may be reading between the lines, but altogether this indicates that the mountain may well have been climbed regularly earlier than that (I'm sure the shepherds didn't fence their livestock in back in those days), but that that information has been lost in the mists of time, which is as good an approximation of "time immemorial" as I can think of).

I can't see how that sentence could violate WP:NPOV; that would only apply if we failed to mention other sources which stated that Snowdon had never been climbed until much later, a stance which no author to my knowledge has taken. If there is only one point of view, that is what we report. --Stemonitis 19:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Saying "no one knows when it was first climbed" is not the same as saying "it has probably been climbed since time immemorial". It could well be argued that since grass is found almost to the summit, shepherds will always have climbed the mountain in search of their sheep, but that's stretching the limits of no original research somewhat. You can't use a word like "probably" in this way without some solid evidence. "The first recorded ascent was in 1639, but there is a vague reference to a possible ascent in 1284" is enough to suggest the possibility of earlier ascents without indulging in speculation. --Blisco 19:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Solid evidence of events having happened since time immemorial will, by definition, be lacking. But the fact that we've got historical records going all the way back to within 100 years of the official boundary of time immemorial (1189) is fairly strong evidence. I fear that you are asking me to cite the uncitable. --Stemonitis 21:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Since its unverifiable it can't be included. The first sentence of the verifiability policy is "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Stick to the facts and let readers draw their own conclusions rather than interpreting for them (which is what I was referring to when I mentioned WP:POV). I think something along the lines that Blisco suggests is the right way to go. Gwernol 21:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Do we have any further context for the 1284 mention? As it stands it's a big leap of interpretation to take it as evidence that Snowdon was climbed in 1284. Aside from the usual questions over historical sources – who wrote it? was it written close to the event or some time after? how close was the writer to the events, and how knowledgeable was he about the area? etc. etc., which may have no bearing on the reliability of the source but at least need to be answered – we currently have no evidence that "this our chief of mountains" refers to Snowdon, or that "on" means "on the summit". I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned, but using it to draw the conclusion that Snowdon was climbed before 1189 is not only original research but is on very shaky historical ground. In any case, "time immemorial" doesn't mean "before 1189" except in a very specific, and now (I think) obsolete, English legal context; in other contexts it's vague and, by definition, unverifiable. --Blisco 23:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The source for the 13th century climb is given in the references I added. Marsh writes "…Thomas Pennant, writing many years later [than 1639] in his Tour in Wales about the attitude of the Welsh people to an English king (Edward I: 1272–1307), relates that 'no sooner had Edward effected his conquest, than he held a triumphal fair upon this our chief of mountains; and adjourned to finish the joy of his victory, by solemn tournaments on the plains of Nevyn.' "

Ah well, perhaps "time immemorial" really will have to go. A shame: I'd have liked it to stay, but never mind. --Stemonitis 00:22, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does Yr Wyddfa only apply to the summit?

The lead section currently implies that the mountain as a whole is called Snowdon, while the summit (only) is also called Yr Wyddfa. Is there a reliable source confirming this state of affairs? I'll admit that I tend to make this distinction myself, and others do too, but I suspect it's rather unofficial; it certainly doesn't exist in Welsh as far as I can tell. It would probably be better to start the article in the orthodox way, something like "Snowdon (Welsh: Yr Wyddfa) is the highest mountain in Wales...", possibly going on to mention the mountain/summit distinction if it can be referenced. --Blisco 19:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"Yr Wyddfa" in Welsh is used to refer to the whole mountain. It has to, because - despite its literal meaning - if it only referrred to the summit, what else would we call the rest of it?! All Welsh maps label the mountain "yr Wyddfa", and I have never come across a Welsh reference implying the contrary. Indeed a quick search of half a dozen official bodies' websites confirms this, in both their English and Welsh language versions. I agree that the intro could do with altering. Hogyn Lleol 19:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

im am sorry to say everybody but this page is crap!!! it does not tell you n e think of snowdon how am i children supost to learn of this page !!!!!!!.... all it says us loads of name who walked up there once before i want infomation about snowdon!!!! peace out dudes!!!!! form xxxxchavettexxxx formt he chav land peace!!!Italic text p.s so i excpect more info on snodonia thn ppls name ok !!!!!

ppl want info on snowdon"

[edit] Snowdon Gang Culture

Snowdon is also the name of a Movement a kind of gang culture located in the North East of England —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mcstoney hiphop (talk • contribs) 18:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC).