Talk:Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw

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Contents

[edit] thoughts re Pauline Johnson

been thinking about this after re-inserting it today, and have given second thought and will move to a separate article on the Legends of Vancouver book, giving a summary of its stories - as notable and iconic in the local cultural landscape (i.e. the white-cum-popularized First Nations cultural landscape), as well as certain other materials and non-native lore connected to the Squamish, OR thought to derive from them. I haven't written a Maj. Matthews bio article yet, but if there is one (doubt it) his material on Squamish legend, language and tradition is also worthy of note historically, although like Johnson likely held in low esteem by contemporary Skwxwu7mesh-ulh elders, politicians and scholars. Fine. On this page all there need be is a reference to the other article (be it a general article on local legends, or one on Johnson's booklet in particular, I haven't decided yet) and an appropriate comment as to their validity/status re Skwxwu7mesh-ulh studies. Matthews' books also feature plates of the archivist dressed in the Kahtsahlano chiefly regalia, as the chief himself could not be photographed wearing it; it happens to be him behind the lens of Matthews' camera...and his native placenames of Vancouver list may or may not be accurate, I wouldn't know. But I do submit that if Skwxwu7mesh-ulh want people to learn about the Skwxwu7mesh Uxmuimixw, instead of criticizing the existence of well-meaning if inaccurate renderings of their cultures, they should write better ones themselves, i.e. better in the sense of reaching the general public. And hopefully someone with as lyrical a sense of poetry and mystery told in such simple language as in Legends of Vancouver; her one story in there relating to a journey into my Lillooet Country is very evocative; an exotic eye on a familiar landscape, so much more on-point than Emily Carr's depressed musings on her visit. Whatever. But Johnson's book and her relationship to Joe Matthias are worthy of comment, as far as non-Skwxwu7mesh-ulh interests go (you can't decide what it is other people are interested in, after all, even if you do want to control what they can find and what they think of it); likewise Maj. Matthews and others writing from a context and era whose views/worldview may not be to your contemporary liking; the world is what it was, as well as what it is, after all...Skookum1 07:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with mentioning Pauline Johnson. Although her work was romanticized with regard to the history, she is still known for her work with the Skwxwu7mesh. And for Major Mathew's work too. Conversations with Khastalano is a great source for documented writing on the history. I'm trying to think of some more written information but most of the sources I have are documents done by my nation (Squamish Nation) for the people.
That would be great if any of that information, including Squamish Nation bio materials, could be added here (they can be cited even if they're not available publicly/online). Since you're here, an item on the Deadman's Island article could use elucidation - see the discussion on Bobanny's talk page as to whether Johnson's cite of the Squamish people's name of the island referred to the Squamish language or to Chinook Jargon.Skookum1 16:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I really don't know what to do with the Pauline Johnson stuff here. I'm not sure if the whole Napoleon story is too long, or, what to do, but I think it needs to be fixed up. Any suggestions? Mine is to just make some notes of it. She had worked with Skwxwu7mesh a lot, and wrote a lot from her conversations with Joe Capilano. Idea's? OldManRivers 03:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

  • There are two identical Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw pages on Wikipedia, this one containing more inforation. They need to be merged. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Xnux (talk • contribs) 29 September 2006.
  • Yeah, no doubt; and see Talk:Skwxwu7mesh Uxwumixw for a renaming of the merged article to Squamish Nation, which got un-named for reasons of political correctness; as if "Skwxwu7mesh Uxwumixw" was an English name/word, which of course it's not. BC media/academia have gotten in the habit of using the indigenous-language names for various peoples around the province (but not all) and it's a slippery slope as in encyclopedia terms they should be indexed by their English name(s) (or as User:OldManRivers slagged them, the "bastardized colonialized" version). The distinction becomes all the more important in some cases where a particular band may not belong to a particular nation/government, yet still be part of the same people (through Shuswap and Thompson and Carrier territory, likewise the Chilcotin, Skeena, Okanagan). The pretense is that "bastardized colonialists" should be forced to use the indigenous names, much as in Canadian English we now put the accents on Montreal and Quebec (I don't when I'm writing English, though) while conversely Quebecois French takes liberties with translating the names of the other provinces into French (why Nova Scotia has to be translated from Latin to French is still a mystery to me). But back to BC - there's a big list of Wiki articles with indigenous-language names that don't mean ANYTHING outside of British Columbia, except to linguists and anthropologists familiar with the turf (and typically cursed with p.c.-ism anyway because of the prevailing prejudices in modern academia). Tsilhqot'in (Chilcotin), St'at'imc (Lillooet), Laich-kwil-tach (Euclataws/Yucultas or Southern Kwakiutl), Nlaka'pamux (Thompson), Secwepemc (Shuswap), Nuu-chah-nulth (Nootka), Kwakawka'wakw (Kwakiutl), Sneneymux (Nanaimo), Shishalh (Sechelt) and so on. Presuming that whitey should have to learn/remember these names is a sure-fire way for most whiteys to not even bother giving a damn; especially when the prononciations for names like St'at'imc and Secwepemc are ANYTHING but obvious; you have to know the orthography, i.e. the different way of using the Latin alphabet that is now "official" within these languages, but very different from the way the same alphabet (minus quite a few accents, diacriticals and sub/superscripts) is used in English. Fine, if you don't want anyone to be able to pronounce - or remember - your people's name; obscurity and oblivion are often born of misplaced pride.....it should be pointed out that in the rest of North America, the page for (e.g.) Comanche language, is titled just like that, not Numu tekwapu. The native-orthography thing gets a bit inane sometimes, as the Lillooet-language adaptation of Cayoosh, a prominent local placename, originally from Spanish (from caballo) is now to be rendered Kiy-oose in order to make it look "more Indian" (even though the same band has virtually banned study of the local variant of the Chinook Jargon in order to preserve the Lillooet language, aka St'at'imcets)....friend just arrived, more later.Skookum1 02:37, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree the articles should be merged. In another 4 days or so the other page will probably be moved to Squamish Nation. When that's done, let's merge this page into the other one so we have one article with a name that's widely understood and all the information in one place. Kla'quot 08:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The move is done. Go for it. Andrewa 06:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Came back to my peoples page. After reading more about Wikipedia, I been able to ponder about the merge. This page should not be moved to Squamish Nation, but use this page for the people, culture, history. Squamish Nation would be the political affiliation of the Squamish First Nations as designated in the Indian Act, it being a Indian Act band council run in the territory. I also noticed the design was "made", but that was in Oct. or Sept.? Am I way off, or is this possible? OldManRivers 05:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, then, that works - this is the "ethno/people" article, then, and the other is the band government, i.e. Indian Act creation. That works and also coincides with standards elsewhere, where the preferred form is for the people, while the reservation/agency/federation/confederacy/whatever is the political article; now it's question of which category it's in; so this one's NOT in Category:First Nations governments in British Columbia, while it IS in Category:First Nations in British Columbia. Make sense? Works for me now.....same idea would apply over at Kwakwaka'wakw as I was trying to explain on Talk:Kwakwakaw'akw.Skookum1 06:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I should explain that that second category is a bit of a conundrum in its name, since many First Nations governents use First Nation in their title; but say in the case of the Nlaka'pamux the Nlaka'pamux First Nation doesn't include all Nlaka'pamux communities, which can fall under other organizations; and there are two parallel ones in the Canyon, as well as isolates (as with N'quatqua]] within the St'a'timc, who are not part of the St'at'imc Ucwalmicw which is the St'at'imcets version of the Lillooet Tribal Council, even though it refers; although in that case St'at'imc is used as the ethno/people title and St'at'imc Ucwalmicw which is equivalent to this title here in context, is a redirect to Lillooet Tribal Council, even though in technical linguistic terms the N'quat'qua and In-SHUCK-ch are also part of the Ucwalmicw; but as Ucwalmicw is used as a government title by the LTC....y'see how tangled it gets. Pretty confusing for a sama7 (pron. "shama") but I'm trying to straighten it out so everything connects together the right way....Skookum1 06:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the whole "First Nations" debacle, is that some consider themselves apart of the "First Nations", which is a term used to replace "Band", where others see it as the extension of the Indian Act governments, which are illegal governments in our territories. So, it differs even more because some people may consider themselves apart of the First Nations category, (usually elected councilors or chiefs), but others don't consider themselves apart of that. Which could kind of create two different thing within one group of people. OldManRivers 07:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Also see First Nations in British Columbia as to how many articles there are yet to be done to "complete the roster" and also why there's a slightly different web for people/ethno and community and language article/categories; e.g. some organizations are jointly Carrier-Chilcotin, another I can think of is Carrier-Tsimshian (Gitksan-Wet'su-we'ten, that is), and there are others. I'd like your opinion on the issues raised on Somena and Talk:Somena, also, and advice on how to differentiate the Chehalis (tribe) article from a putative Chehalis people article for the Fraser Valley group, who though they are Halqemeylem speakers, are not part of the Sto:lo nor ever have been. Also about to do drafts on the Scowlitz Mounds (aka Fraser Valley Pyramids) and other stuff from a book I found at Bby PL People of Harrison. I'm interested in the history of the old Skayuks villages on the lower Stave, too (I was raised by Ruskin Dam; we used to have an old dugout on the river and played in the old orchard on the IR down the road...which was abandoned by then except for the non-native ex-husband of a native woman he'd outlived....Mr. Haines...I used to deliver his paper...in behind was a bit of old logging, with corduroy road, huge old second-growth we called "the Lost Forest"....apparently those reserves are Whonnock Band, which falls now under Kwantlen...? But was a separate group within the Sto:lo at one time....).Skookum1 06:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

It gets confusing because of pre-contact ties and modern ties. Band Council/Indian Act things is what really garble up the alliances, allegiances, and affiliations between nations, peoples, and villages. (Like Skwxwu7mesh and Tsleil-Wau-tuth). I'm actually pretty unfamiliar with the Cowichan tribes history, although I have friends and family from there. But, I'll see what I can do. OldManRivers 07:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
BTW are the Tseil-wau-tuth historically Halkomelem-speaking or Skwxwu7mesh snichim; currently based on Web content elsewhere, they're assinged in Wikipedia to Halkomelem-speaking.Skookum1 20:52, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Occurred to me to dig to see what I could come up with on the Whonnock Reserve/Band. Back when I was in high school there were still some residents; including I think the Gongs, who were Chinese-Canadian and (I think) part Whonnock; I'll ask next time I'm out there one of the old-timers I know (we're old timers now, we were young punks back then...).Skookum1 06:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Their language is Skwxwu7mesh. OldManRivers 00:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
That's what I thought, originally; I'd seen something different in the pages of the Sun or another non-source so changed it to Halqemeylem; I'll change it back. Makes a lot more sense, despite the proximity of the Kway-quit-lams at/near Port Moody...BTW would like to do a COTM (collaboration of the month) on Dan George, towards an FA (featured article)....waddya think?Skookum1 02:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
That would be good. Where are some links to read about COTM's and FA's. Still learning more about wikipedia. Thanks OldManRivers 05:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinook Jargon among the Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw?

I'd be grateful for information/resources on the Chinook Jargon as it was used among the Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw, if you have any materials in your resources/library; see Talk:Chinook Jargon and also List of Chinook Jargon placenames, which I built; I'm an amateur chinookologist and although I haven't worked on my site in a while the Chinook Jargon Information Superhighway it's pretty thorough; but I've always wanted to find more from-BC materials on the CJ, instead of just Columbia River/stateside sources like Shaw, Gibbs, Harper, Pasco and El Comancho. All of which I've got on photocopy if you're interested by the way (Shaw is completely online via my site and others, though). Pe skookum mamook pe mahsh naika iktas, hyas mahsie!Skookum1 06:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can dig up. Most of my great grandparents on my father's side spoke it as a first language, and a few of our songs contain Chinook lyrics. As for place names, I'm not sure what there is. I've always been interested in learning the Chinook Jargon (After Skwxwu7mesh, Shishalh and Kwakwalla), but with the mixture of English, Russian, French and Spanish, or what ever other settler language. But, I'll see what I can do. Also, thanks for using Skwxwu7mesh. But if just Skwxwu7mesh is fine. Adding "ulh" to the end means "our" and together with "Skwxwu7mesh-ulh Uxwumixw" it's "Our Squamish Nation". Skwxwu7mesh is who I am, but xwemelch'stn is where I am from. So just Skwxwu7mesh is fine. But thank you. It feels a lot more refreshing to hear/read that then Squamish. OldManRivers 07:10, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skwxwu7mesh snichem or Squamish Language

After searching for it, I found that there was no article for the language of the people. It isn't Helke7minem(sp?), or Shishilh (although more closely related to the latter) Create new article for Skwxwu7mesh Snichem? Yes, no? OldManRivers 07:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please. Have a look at language categories off the Indigenous People's Project on the template above and see how other language pages are laid out; make sure you put in the correct categories and a linguist Wikipedian will be by to put in more stuff; check out St'at'imcets as it's one of the models; or Nuxalk language I think is done by now. No one's written Okanagan language - t he preferred form, i.e. use "Squamish language" with the version in Skwxwu7mesh snichim form bolded, but as a redirect. It's what it's called in English, again, as before for the political article. Usually, though - geez, I'm really gonna have to look over the Indigenous WikiProject's variosu well-developed pages and have a good look, as to what form is preferred BC examples aren't that good because say with Nlaka'pamux the language area hasn't split off yet, if it's been written. And by the way, don't forget, Wikimedia takes in Meta-Wikis which means you can use this technology to build a Skwxwu7mesh snichim, and THERE the titles can be in Skwxwu7mesh snichim, and should be. You can make a community-written history with this technology, with everyone contributing over the generations; in your own language. Check the Meta-Wiki area out....Skookum1 09:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, I'm not intimidated at all by that. OldManRivers 09:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

As far as I know, this was done by me. I didn't notice this till I was doing a link from the Lost Lagoon page, but the spelling of this page is wrong. Right now in "uxwumixw" there is an extra "i", after the "u". Also, in Skwxu7mesh, the "k" and "u" are supposed to be underlines. I understand the hardness of our own orthography, and the the importance of using the IPA. I apologize for the mix-up and spelling error.

Could we perhaps, create the page for "Sḵwxwú7mesh", with no "uxwumixw". This page would be about the culture, history, and everything, with Squamish Nation, to be the political indian act, band council, government. What do you think? OldManRivers 21:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] XwMuthkwium

Just checking - is that the Skwxwu7mesh snichim name, or the Halkolemen/Hunquminum one. If linguistic correctness is to be applied across the board, the primary mention here should be in Hunquminum, with a bracketed comment that it's "XwMythkwium" in Sxwxwu7mesh snichim; same issue as with Noxws'a7aq from before.Skookum1 22:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That's there spelling. [1] OldManRivers 03:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
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