Talk:Skanderbeg

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Contents 1 my latest edit 1.1 the text from 1911 1.2 The New Student's Reference Work 2 No strong national feelings at the time, but... 3 To Albanau 4 Italy 5 military university? 6 Why is the dispute still going on? 7 primary sources on Scanderbeg 8 Juan Castriota 9 Blatantly Byzantine 10 Just wanted to add this to external links 11 Voisava? 12 Blatantly Byzantine has a point 13 Wrong way round!!! 14 Interpretations of the Seal (continued from above) 15 Mr. Gibbon comments about Skanderbeg 16 Epirote Greek family 17 Arm wrestling 18 WP:MILHIST Assessment 19 Title? 19.1 ================ 20 A QUESTION OF SKANDERBEGS RELIGION 21 was skanderbeg GHEG OR TOSK 22 For the love of God

[edit] my latest edit

One editor added the signature "INFO (By Andi VL)", other editors removed the last paragraphs of the article - I don't know what to say. I did those edits and I 'll might add some stuff later. talk to +MATIA 09:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the text from 1911

SCANDERBEG, or ISKENDER BEY (1403-1467), known also as the Dragon of Albania, the national hero of the Albanians, was the son of John (Giovanni) Castriota, lord of Kroia and of the Mirdite country in northern Albania, and of a Servian princess named Vaisava. His actual name was George (Giorgio) Castriota, and the name of Iskender Bey (Prince Alexander) was given to him by the Turks in complimentary reference to Alexander the Great. In 1423, when Murad II invaded Epirus, George Castriota, with his three brothers, was handed over as a hostage to the Turks and sent to be trained in the service of the seraglio. His brilliant qualities of mind and body at once gained him the favor of the sultan; he became a Mussulman, was promoted to high military command and, though barely nineteen years of age, to the government of a sanjak. He remained in the Ottoman service for twenty years, dissembling his resentment when, on the death of his father, his principality was annexed and his brothers poisoned. In 1443, however, his opportunity came with Janos Hunyadis victory at Nish. He seized Kroia by stratagem, proclaimed himself a Christian, and gathered the wild Albanian clansmen about him. In the inaccessible fastnesses of Albania he maintained a guerilla warfare against the Turks during nearly twenty-five years, easily routing the armies sent against him, and is said to have slain three thousand Turks with his own hand. In 1461 Murads successor Mahommed II. acknowledged him by a temporary truce as lord of Albania and Epirus. He died in 1467 at Alessio, and his tomb was long the object of a superstitious veneration on the part of the Turks.

Scanderbegs resistance to the Turkish advance was invaluable to the cause of Christianity, but the union which he had maintained in Albania did not survive him. He was succeeded in Kroia by his son, Giovanni Castriota, who in 1474 sold the principality to the Venetians, by whom four years later it was re-sold to the Turks.

See Georges T. Petrovitch, Scander-beg (Georges Castriota); Essai de bibliographie raisonnee; Ouvrages sur Scander-beg crits en langues francaise, anglaise, allemande, latine, italienne, &c. (Paris, 1881); Pisko, Skanderbeg, historische Studie (Vienna, 1895). talk to +MATIA 09:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The New Student's Reference Work

Scanderbeg. (Iskander Beg or Bey), an Albanian chieftain, was born in Albania, about 1403, of Servian parents. He was called George Castriota by the Christians. He was carried away by the Turks when seven, and brought up a Mohammedan. His bravery and skill made him a favorite with the sultan, who put him in command of a division of his army. In 1443 he deserted the Turkish army with 300 Albanians, and renounced Mohammedanism. In less than a month the whole of Albania was in arms, Scanderbeg was chosen chief, and the Turkish garrisons driven out of the country He was defeated by the Turks but once in all the struggles that followed, destroying 40,000 Turks, with 15,000 Albanians, and defying the Sultan himself with his army of 150,000, until he retired disgusted from the conflict. Pope Pius II tried in vain to league the Christian princes together to help Scanderbeg in his conflicts with the Turks, but succeeded in inducing him to break a truce of peace, made in 1461, and renew the war alone. He again defeated every force that attacked him, even driving back Mohammed II, the conqueror of Constantinople, who conducted two campaigns against him in person. Scanderbeg died at Alessio, of malarial fever, Jan. 17 5468. Consult Ludlow's Captain of the Janizaries.

From wikisource talk to +MATIA 08:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No strong national feelings at the time, but...

I must point one fact AGAIN: John Kastriot (Skenderbegs father) endowed two of his villages to Serb monastery Hilandar in Holy Mt Athos and was later buried there according to his wish in. With his wife Voisava (obviously Slavic) he had 4 sons – two of them have Slavic names - Staniša (Stanissa) and Repoš (Repossius), two Christian calendar names - Constantine (Konstantinus) and George (Georgius). Repoš was also buried in Hilandar: above his grave is an inscription in Serbian and moreover frescoes of St Sava and St Simeon, important Serbian saints.

On the other hand the tower that Kastriots have purchased in Hilandar has remained remembered as “Arbanaški” i.e. Albanian.

These facts together surely point out that both Skenderbegs father, and Skenderbegs family didn’t have such clear national feelings as Albanians of today would like them to. If they were more Albanian they would have had Albanian names and wouldn’t like to be buried in a monastery of a different nation. If their mother was Bulgarian they could have chosen Bulgarian monastery Zoograf, but they didn’t. If they were just plain and simple Serbs they wouldn’t be remembered as Albanians in Hilandar (although this may be geographic rather than national determination). --Dultz 23:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

BTW, two villages that John endowed (Radostuše and Trebište) lay a bit to the south of Polog wherefrom Voisava was. In the first Turkish census from 1467 ([1]) the inhabitants of these villages all had Slavic names and most Serbian surnames ending with –ić. If someone should bother we could find the same data for Polog and the results would be the same. That might also give us an idea of wherefrom Voisava originated from. However, since she was of noble birth it could easily be that here family were settled here during the reign of Serbian kings and emperors over Macedonia, as were families of Mrnjavčević or despotes Oliver (to mention just a few), which originated in Herzegovina or Serbia proper. --Dultz 00:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

His name was not George was Gjergj that si the albanian name for Giorigio because ate that time albanians were kristian.

[edit] To Albanau

I don't care whether his mother or grandmother was Serbian, Greek or whatever else, but a) you are removing vital parts of the article apart from the word Serbian that you dislike and b) it is from EB 1911, you can see it scanned at wikisource, if you don't believe that the above text is correct. Perhaps you should consider that Scanderbeg sided any Christians he could and that includes Serbians too. talk to +MATIA 14:42, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

We been through this a thousand times. I think using out of date sources to support your arguements is unwise. Your using sources that is about 100 years old. You must admit the serious lack of scientific support of the theory that Scanderbeg's mother Vojsava was of Serbian origin. Everything points to the fact that this is Serbian nationalist propaganda and fiction. This is an encyclopedia article, accept it! Some few Greeks here have even claimed that Scanderbeg's father and uncle was Greek. It seams likely that this have to do with religion and nationalism. Just because he was Christian and the majority of Albanians are today Muslims, doesn't mean Greeks or Serbs have the right to claim him as their own. Cause I know many Greek and Serb seam him as a Christian hero of the Balkans and dislike muslim Albanians for having him as their national hero. With that comes the myth of him being either Greek or Serb. Serbs even go so far as saying that he and his army was Serbs, and complain to Albanians they stole part of Serbian history. Even seen you erasing everything regarding the word Albanian and replacing it with Christian or people, or something els. So enough with all the rubbish. If you didn't cear about the Serbian theory that his mother was Serbian, you would have been able to accept the erasement of the unaccurate part of the article. Thank you so much for understanding. --Albanau 11:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Most of my sources are at least 100 years old because I prefer public domain sources. If you know of an online english translation of Barleti's work please let me know, I'm very interested in reading it (and I can only speak english and greek). Scanderbeg, when he took Croia, forced the muslims to be baptized, but today this is not the case and of course I agree this is an encyclopedia article.

I believe you are wrong when you say "Even seen you erasing everything regarding the word Albanian and replacing it with Christian or people, or something else" and I hope you aren't doing that intentionally. I've added, with source the EB1911 again, his title Dragon of Albania and in the new intro I only left his characterization as national Albanian hero (moving Albanian lord, Serbian mother etc lower in the biography section). It doesn't make Scanderbeg less Albanian or less heroic, f his mother was partly Serbian or whatever else. talk to +MATIA 12:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

You are completely spellbound by the myth that Scanderbeg's mother was a Serb. The supposed Serbian origin of the Albanian national hero George Castriota Scanderbeg have not been scientifically confirmed. Of course, admitting this fact is easy; overcoming it is far more difficult.

According to a fact recorded in an anonymous Venetian chronicl Skanderbeg's mother was a Bulgarian women named Voisava, from the provinces of Upper and Lower Polog ranged over the territory of the Tetovo plain. Although I don't know how acceptable this is scientifically.

Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus.

If you agree that this is an encyclopedia, then you must understand the principles of an encyclopedia, that is not being subjective and adding contradictory information to your comfortable. The problem is obvious, as you probable understand, the informartion is the problem, it is contradictory information which has nothing to do with encyclopedia-articles. Albanau 16:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous doesn't help much but we could ref it as a manuscript if we know where (which museum etc) this manuscript is. I thought the "problem" was the "claim" that she wasn't Albanian, now I don't get what difference does it make if she was Albanian, Serbian or Bulgarian. talk to +MATIA 16:44, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Your latin quote is mentioned at some forums and at a bulgarian site and that book is (likely) a 112 page monograph, Георги Кастриоти-Скендербег и неговата освободителна борба. В: Г. Кастриоти Скендербег 1468-1968. София, 1970. I'd be interested in the (estimated) date of the Venetian chronicle. talk to +MATIA 16:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Is Vojsava the Albanian spelling of her name? talk to +MATIA 17:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just found this: Principe di Epiro, figlio del S. Ivan Castrioth, che signoreggiava quella parte di Albania, la qual si chiama Emathia et Tumenstia, et la matre di Scanderbeg chiamata Voisava, fu figliuola del S. di Pollogo, che è una parte della Macedonia et Bulgaria (Paolo Giovio, Commentario delle cose de Turchi, Venezia 1541). This is in 16th century Italian; it is very similar to the latin chronicle just cited. This view is exposed also by the historian Marinus Barletius, who says "Prince John I of Kastriota married Voisava of the family Tribalda, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje." The same Barletius also stated that the area was inhabited by slavs, but without telling if Bulgarians or Serbs. --Aldux 16:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly Marinus Barletius mention that one part of the population was Bulgarian and the other part Albanian. --Albanau 09:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

His father's name was Ivan and his mother was Vojisava. Two clearly Serbian names. His brothers were Staniša, Repoš, Kostadin i Đorđe. All Serbian names. One of them was burried in Hilandar! Once you find me an Albanian named Djordje or Radisa, I'll consider the possibility of him being an Albanian. The greatest irony of history is the fact that Albanian SS division in WWII was named Skenderbeg. They commited numerous crimes against the Serbs under the name of a Serb!

[edit] Italy

I've removed the phrase "Skanderbeg's 25-year resistance against the Ottoman Empire succeeded in helping protect the Italian peninsula from invasion by the Ottoman Turks ^{[citation needed]}."

In 1480, the Sultan invaded Italy and Rhodes, and he was repulsed. talk to +MATIA 09:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this is a point of view erasement that I'm not willing to accept. --Albanau 11:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I wrote that I removed it here cause I thought it might be controversial. If you have any reliable source that makes that claim tell me and I'll gladly put it back in. Please review my edits at Scanderbeg. I hope that, apart from some different opinions you and I might have, you'll admit I'm trying to expand this article as good as possible. talk to +MATIA 12:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Migh be controversial? What about removing the part that saids that Scanderbeg's mother was a Serb woman? So far as I know she probable was a Bulgarian woman. What I know Albania was seen as springboard too the Italian peninsula. As said before, I think this is a point of view erasement that I'm unwilling to accept--Albanau 16:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

It sounds logical that Scanderbeg delayed the Ottomans etc. Could you find a good book that says so? talk to +MATIA 16:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

See also Skanderbeg#Effects_on_the_Ottoman_expansion. talk to +MATIA 17:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice try, but a bit point of view, don't you think? --Albanau 14:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Find a reliable source and we'll expand Skanderbeg#Effects_on_the_Ottoman_expansion. I weren't trying anything - I 've just pointed out that this paragraph covers better the subject than the phrase I removed. talk to +MATIA 07:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've studied for 6 years in Italy and in every Italian history book is written that Scanderbeg did indeed protect southern Italy and Rome from Turks for 25 years, and if Turks did not succeed in their planned invasion of Italy after his death it was because of their internal succession problems and because they were weakened from the war against the Albanians. After the death of Scanderbeg they stopped being a serious menace to Christian Europe, this is confirmed by the marine battle of Lepanto where the Spaniards defeated them easily and destroyed their fleet. Even though they besieged Wien about a century later, their military force was not lethal like in the 15th century, their former elite troops (giannizzeri) were undisciplined and their artillery far worse than the European one. After their inglorious attempt to capture Wien they suffered the German and Hungarian military superiority and began to withdraw from Croatia, and Serbia.

Why don't you read the section that speaks about papal relations of Skenderbeg, do you know that his sword is in the vatican museum and that all the albanian villages in southern italy were a concesion to the albanian population for the relations with Skenderbeg.

[edit] military university?

Is there a military university name after Scanderbeg in Albania? talk to +MATIA 08:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is. The address is Akademia Ushtarake Skenderbej. Rruga e Dibres, Tirane Albania

[edit] Why is the dispute still going on?

Weren't international sources provided? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:53, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

The point is that I suspect that all we know regards the mother of Skanderbeg comes from only one source, Marin Barleti's History; this is the only primary source, while the others are all derivated, in my opinion. And Barleti never states if Voisava was Serbian or Bulgarian, only that her family ruled over a land peopled by Slavs, in Western Macedonia. As for the statement you added, I removed it since her mother's name and origin is stated before. --Aldux 21:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Aldux, do you actually have access on Barleti? (any link perhaps) talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Only in a very minor measure: I simply trusted that this alleged quote of Barleti was being reported with fidelity: John Kastrioti was married to Voisave, the daughter of the ruler of Pollogus, a country that lies between Tetovo and Skopje. One part of the population of Pollogus besides Bulgarian was Albanian, the family of Tribalda or “Triballorum princeps”. It was from this marriage that John Kastrioti had five girls and four boys.[2]. From Musachi's Chronicle, the grandfather of Lord Scanderbeg was called Lord Paul Castriota. He ruled over no more than two villages, called Signa (Sina) and Gardi Ipostesi. To this Lord Paul was born Lord John Castriota who became Lord of Mat. And to him was born Lord Scanderbeg. The mother of the said Lord Scanderbeg, i.e. the wife of the said Lord John, was called Lady Voisava Tribalda who was of a noble family.

[3]--Aldux 17:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust forums, especially on topics like Scanderbeg. Musachi seems good though, so let's leave it as is for now. talk to +MATIA 07:29, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I propose the removal of disputed information when the veracity of such disputed information cannot be verified. The theory of the Serbian origin of Scanderbeg is contradictory, and based on the national romantic interest of the Serbian people. Due to this fact it has not been scientifically confirmed. The woman in question is supposedly a princess of Bulgarian origin. Yet it certainly isn't safe to say much about the origin of Scanderbeg's mother. This theories should be presented as as theories in the article, and not as facts.

User shouldn't expend great energy on searching information from one-hundred-year-old encyklopedias. Old information overwrites new information, and is is generally not useful information. It is unwise to rely on old information all the time because certain information has been controversially disputed ever since. The best way to get reliable information is from updated and objective sources. --Albanau 09:51, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The only source that we can find for his mother being Bulgarian is a monograph compiled by a Bulgarian author who (we suppose) cites a Latin manuscript. A similar Latin manuscript that cites the opposite can also be found (I've seen some references from an American author), but I haven't been able to verify none of these two. What if his mother was both Serbian and Bulgarian? talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] primary sources on Scanderbeg

And by the way the primary sources on Scanderbeg are about 500 years old (and no, they can't be easily overwritten):

• Marinus Barleti
• Chalcondyles
• Spondanus
• Phranza
• and perhaps someone else who I forgot.

He is also mentioned in various encyclopedias/lexicons of the 16th (1560 for example) and 17th century. talk to +MATIA 09:05, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Another source is also's John Musachi's chronicle [4].--Aldux 17:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Nice. I've added two refs (for requesting fact tags) from Musachi. talk to +MATIA 06:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Juan Castriota

There is also a Spanish nobleman by the name of Juan Alandro Castriota who contributed a great deal towards Albania's struggle for independence ^{[citation needed]}.

I've found this (quote:Don Juan Aladro Castriota de Perez y Velasco (Spanish nobleman). He was one of several European noblemen of alleged descendancy from Gjergj Kastriota, called Scanderbeg, who tried to gain influence on the National Movement, but with very limited success. One of his preferred propaganda items were postcards with his portrait in a fancy uniform and the title "Prince of Albania". When Albania proclaimed her independence he was out of the game.) but I'd like more info about it. I remember of another "noble" who was preparing a revolt against the Ottomans, but instead he picked whatever funds he could and disappeared. However I think that was 50 years before the Albanian Independence. talk to +MATIA 07:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blatantly Byzantine

Castriotis clearly saw himself as a rightfull heir to the Roman (Byzantine) empire. This is clearly evidenced by his seal. He had a sound Greek education, and he clearly used Greek, not Albanian, as the language of administration. This is proven, again, by his seal, as well as his letters. He considered his armies to be the last relic of the Roman Empire. Of course, his warriors were Albanians. He was the ruler of Albanian people, in Albanian territory. BUT His flag is in fact a Byzantine war standard. He himself in his letters, written in Greek, states that his armies are a relic of the Roman empire. We cannot know his nationality in terms of genealogy. He probably was Albanian, Serb AND Greek, and who knows what else. Intermarriage was very common in the Empire. We have to mention, however, that Kastriotis is a Greco-Latin name. That doesnt mean he was Greek. But, he was a Byzantine noble, he had a Greek education, some knowledge of Ancient Greek history (he refers to Pyrrhus in his letters), and clearly he was a participant of late Byzantine culture, which had verys strong ties to Hellenism. He was a ruler of Albanians, but that doesnt mean he was Albanian himself. Most imperial families of Byzantium were descended from the East, eg Cappadocia or Armenia, but they ruled over all of the empire. Nationality was of little consequence in Byzantium. Nobility that ruled in Albania did not have to be Albanian, much like the Duke of Edinborough isnt Scottish. But what is clear is that Castriotis was Byzantine. Not Greek, not Albanian, not Serb, but probably the last Byzantine leader to fight the Turks. He had a Greek education, and an Orthodox Byzantine culture. This doesnt mean that he wasnt the leader of Albanians, nor is it an attempt ot steal anything. It is just fact. In Skenderbeg's time, there was no such thing as Greek, Albanian or anything else. They were Romans and Orthodox. Skenderbeg himself called himself a Roman and an Epirot, as well as an Albanian. And he probably was all these things. I really feel there should be some mention of all this in the article. Druworos 18:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that I agree with some of your points. talk to +MATIA 11:48, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all Pyrrhus was not Greek, nor was Epirus. They were both illyrian, and the Greek scholar Herodotus says this too in his chronicles. The name Epirus is antient Greek, that's true, and it means "continent". In fact Greeks used to call Epirus this way because they lived in Peloponnesyum , which is a peninsulaattached to the Balkans. The Illyrian name for Epirus is "Southern Illyria" and the language spoken there was not Greek. Greek was used only for administrative purposes, but the people used to speak Illyrian. (the case of Epirus is quite similar to Macedonia, which is pretended to be a Greek province because Alexander fought against Persians to defend the Greek polis, like Pyrrus did in southern Italy to defend Tarentum and Syracusae). Then I'd like to add that the Albanian seal, the one that Scanderbeg used, is ultimately Illyrian, neither Roman nor Greek. The eagle has always been an Illyrian sacred animal, and symbol of force and bravery. In fact his soldiers used to call Pyrrus "eagle" and the eagle as it appears today on the Albanian flag was designed by the Roman Emperor Constantine the Great, who is known to be of Illyrian origines, like other Roman Emperors too (Diocletianus, Aurelianus, Valerianus etc). Then Scanderbeg did not have a Byzantine or Greek background. He could speak 6 foreign languages (Greek, Serbian, Latin,Italian,Bulgarian,Turkish) but this doesn't mean that he was related by blood or anything else to any of these countries. And I'd like to conclude that Scanderbeg was not an Orthodox, but a Roman Catholic. He met the Pope a few times, he recieved the order of "High Defender of the Christianity" and was going to be crowned King of Albania and Epirus by the pope, if it weren't for an incident that forbade him to go to Rome. He is also called in historical chronicles "The king without a crown".

You are wrong,its true that he used greek letters becouse at time there was not an albanian alphabet and the albanian language was written with greek letters.

[edit] Just wanted to add this to external links

Can someone more experienced please add this link to external links? Thanks.

(documentary preview)

http://www.illyriaentertainment.com/scanderbeg.htm

(full 1953 movie)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6962253720392525785&q=skenderbeu&pl=true

You may delete this entry after the addition to the external link section.

I've added the first one (trailer) but I'm not sure if the second video's source is legally ok (perhaps I misunderstood something, but I'm not gonna risk it right now). talk to +MATIA 11:59, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Matia, I think the copyright only protects a work for 30 years, that movie is from 1953. I am not aware of any other problem, but just to be on the safe side, I am leaving this up to more experienced pplz here.

[edit] Voisava?

Uhh, why does it left out his Serbian mother again? --HolyRomanEmperor 20:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blatantly Byzantine has a point

Giorgos Kastriotis was probably more Greek in background than anything else. He probably had Serbian in him as well. But some of these administrators like to continue calling him just Albanian. Well it is a fact he spoke fluent Greek, was Greek Orthodox and used the provisional double headed eagle for his principality. It was also a well known fact that any legitimate prince had to have some form of Greek in him or her to rule (or at least married to a Greek noble). And someone posted a quote before- Principe di Epiro- I believe (tell me if I am wrong- but I will look it up as well to make sure) means the Prince of Epirus. And Epirus has been a Greek province , practically forever! WAY BEFORE THE TOSCS AND GHEGS APPEARED!

"more Greek in background than anything else. He probably had Serbian in him as well." I think he had some mililitres of Mongolian blood, too. Someone told me. ilir_pz 18:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong way round!!!

The seal of Skanderbeg, is the wrong way round - hence the letters cannot be read properly.

It needs to be flipped round. Politis 11:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

If this is a seal, then isn't it actually supposed to be the wrong way round, so that the imprint will come out correctly? It works like a rubber stamp, you know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Very good point indeed! I will hold it up against the mirror again and try to transcribe the 'paper' version. Politis 12:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks like: "ΑΛΕΧΑΝΔΡΟΣ· ΕΛΕΩ· Θ[ΕΟ]Υ· Ο ΑΥΤ[ΟΚΡΑΤΩΡ?]· ΡΩΜ[ΑΙΩΝ?]· ΟΜΕΓ[ΑΣ?]· ΑΥΘ[ΕΝΤΗΣ?]· ΤΟΥΡ[ΚΙΑΣ?]· ΑΛΒ[ΑΝΙΑΣ?]· ΣΕΡΒΙ[ΑΣ]· ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΙ[ΑΣ]· ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ" Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree withi the above trascription. Suggested translation:

"ALEXANDER• [by the] GRACE [of] G[od] EMP[EROR of the?] • ROM[AIC NATION(Greeks / Greek Orthodox?) • THE SUPR[EME?] • MAS[TER] • KING [of?] TUR[KEY?] • ALB[ANIA?]• SERBI[A] • BULGARI[A] • "

The question, to my mind, is whether, ΟΜΕΓ· ΑΥΘ· is used as an exhaltation - and therefor can stand on its own, or, is it used as a descriptive title for what follows (of the Greek nation). Or, does 'Ο ΑΥΤ' stand as an exhaltative? In this case, it would affect what follows the following way: ALEXANDER is the SUPREME MASTER of the ROMAIC NATION, and KING of all the other lands.

As for Romaic indicating Greek, I would go along with that because that was its common meaning, even taking the earliest time the seal was reportedly created. I would also go along with the interpretation of Greek Orthodox; though this would include Greeks and Greek Orthodox Albanians and certainly, he seems to have been much admired by the Greeks as defender of the faith (ps. does anyone have an aspirin:)). Politis 15:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Politis. I'm not certain I can agree with reading "romaios" as Greek in this context; to me it seems pretty obvious that he is imitating the official title of the Roman and Byzantine emperors, and in such an official document it seems to me that the emphasis is on "Roman" mor than "Greek", as a sign of the continuity of the universal imperial authority.--Aldux 15:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting discussion. As for the relation between the three titles, I read:

• Emperor (αυτοκράτωρ) of the Greeks/Romaioi (Ρωμ.)
• Master (αυθέντης) of the Albanians and Turks
• King (βασιλεύς) of Serbia and Bulgaria.

Note the linguistic difference: "Σερβι..." and "Βυλγαρι..." each have their "ι" spelled out, to make clear it's the country name, not just the ethnonym "Serbs" and "Bulgars", whereas "Τουρ..." and "Αλβ..." do not. Serbia and Bulgaria being the two nations that historically had been kingdoms. So he's claiming continuity to the three Christian orthodox states in terms of the historic titles of king/emperor, plus additional leadership of the Turks and Albanians as state-less ethnic groups? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Future on the 'i'. And Aldux, yes, you are right, the word originates in 'Roman'. It gradually came to identify the Greeks; that is why the Turks still refer to the Greeks as 'Rum'. Until recently, spoken or demotic Greek was also referred to as 'Romaica' (it certainly did not mean, Latin). The clear linguistic break away from any conotations with 'Rome' emerged with the schism between Roman Catholic west and Orthodox east; well before the time of Skanderbeg. But I think there is also a case for considering its usage in the seal as referring to both the Greek and Albanian Greek Orthodox peoples; therefor the term would cover a specific religious dominion, including ecclesiastic Greek as the liturgical and theological language. Politis 16:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Politis, I think you added this: "his name is also revered as a defender of the Orthodox faith against the Ottomans". This is quite problematic as it's certain that he was a Roman catholic, as proved among other things by his helmet, where was written in Latin, and not in Greek, "Jesus of Nazareth blesses Skanderbeg prince of Mat King of Albania terror of Ottomans king of Epirus" (I must search the original Latin). Many of his key advisors were catholic churchmen, and the Pope repeatedly extolled him, and the Popes hostility for schismatics is well known. His catholicity is given as certain by all books I know: see E. A. Jacques' Albanians.--Aldux 18:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

He may have been Orthodox, Latin, or Uniat. Kollias claims the last one, perhaps we can stick with Christian (and avoid revert wars on this one too), since all the 3 cases may be uncertain. talk to +MATIA 07:04, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretations of the Seal (continued from above)

I agree with your explanation Aldux. There is also no serious doubt, I think, that he was Albanian, but I am not sure how many contemporary sources refer to him as 'Albanian' (perhaps our Albanian friends can help out, but even if not, of course he was Albanian).

As for the seal, I find it curious. Where and when was it made, was it ever used (presumably on wax)? If it was made in Catholic lands, then, according to an academic acquaintance, one can speculate that the text in Latin, following the style of the time, could be:

• "ALEXANDER, DEI GRATIA, IMPERATOR GRAECORUM, MAGNUS DOMINUS TURCORUM, REX ALBANIAE, SERBIAE, BULGARIAEQUE". The same person offers that, instead of reading "O MEGAS AUTHENTES TOURKON...", it could be "O MEGAS AUTHENTES TOURKOS..." which is similar to the title 'MAGNUS TURCUS' and by which title the Ottoman Sultan was known in Europe. So Scanderbeg would be claiming to rule over the Turks... The acquaintance also suggests that the title 'King of Serbia and Albania' was the title of the Serbian kings. So Scanderbeg had a broad vision. But unless we know more about the provenance and use of the seal, it might be problematic to give a more specific interpretation of the text. Politis 13:28, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mr. Gibbon comments about Skanderbeg

His reputation reaches across many countries for his stand against the Ottomans. According to Gibbon, "John Huniades and Scanderbeg... are both entitled to our notice, since their occupation of the Ottoman arms delayed the ruin of the Greek empire."

What's the meaning behind the sentence and why is the sentence placed on the section Biography instead of section Skanderbeg in literature, an explanation would be appropriate. Well, it is obvious and we already know that he became famous even outside Albania. The editor should give the entire text of Gibbon's comments about Skanderbeg to investigate what Mr. Gibbon means, and if not the entire text above should be delated because of obvious reasons. --Albanau 17:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I must admit it is a bit strange; Skanderbeg didn't delay Muhammed II, as when he rised to power in 1451 decided to take the city, he took it only 2 years after becoming sultan. Not a great delay, in my view.--Aldux 17:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Mehmed II ruled the Ottoman Empire from Edirne like all his predecessors since 1365. Even in the so-called Ottoman Interregnum contender Sultan Suleyman ruled from Edirne. How a monarch of Albania would prevent the Ottoman Army to cover the distance from Edirne to Constantinople is beyond me. User:Dimadick

Albanau; I was responsible for including the Gibbon text. It exemplifies the fame of Skanderbeg - irrespective of historical distortions pointed out by Dimadick. In fact, the quote shows how his fame makes him suseptible to be attributed greater deeds than history records. But what do you mean by obvious reasons; I am afraid that I cannot deduce the obvious reasons through your text and I think it would be helpful to find out. Thanks. Politis 10:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Epirote Greek family

Note to the contributor who edited that Scanderbeg is Greek and Illyrian. This reads like an interpretation and no editor can accept just like that. So if you have reliable historical evidence, please quote it. BUT! Even if you do quote references that he was 'Greek', the general consensus amongst historians is that he was a Christian 'Albanian' (and I go along with his 'Albanianess', even though in those days 'ethnicity' was not a key motive). Therefore, no editor can delete any reference to the fact that he was 'Albanian'. Politis 09:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arm wrestling

In Romania arm wrestling is commonly called "skanderbeg" and, until now, I never knew who is referenced by that name. Anyway, the name seems to go well with the stories about his legendary strength mentioned in the article. Does anyone know of this usage anywhere else? AdamSmithee 10:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MILHIST Assessment

Though this article could use some expansion in a few sections (Weapons and the following section), overall it is far better than just a Good Start. Long, detailed, pictures, and lots of in-line citations. Good work! LordAmeth 05:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title?

Surely they didn't call somebody a "chief army economist" in the 1400's. So what exactly did Vladan Giurica do? Clarityfiend 03:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ================

Complete documentation of Scanderbeg: http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm143.showMessage?topicID=396.topic

Clarification of the debate over Scanderbeg's ethnicity: http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansfrm107.showMessage?topicID=253.topic

[edit] A QUESTION OF SKANDERBEGS RELIGION

I have always been taught tha Skanderbeg was born Catholic, but recently some indaviduel have been saying Skanderbeg was Orthodox,which is untrue. He was from Krujë in North Albania with large and fearsome Catholic Albanians. this is a fact so um adding this very important informaton to the article Xalvas

[edit] was skanderbeg GHEG OR TOSK

This article needs to be specific in regarding Skanderbegs origins.Some people think he was tosk which is impossible(he was a catholic Gheg from Krujë, durr!!) this special information is quite important so is being added immidiatly by me Xalvas

[edit] For the love of God

Enough of this BS about him being Greek or Serb. Why is it that not a single contemporary of Skanderbeg ever mentions that he was of mixed ancestry if it's such a well known fact? Please spare me this BS about his name being Greek; it could easily just be from a place name (there is a place near Dibra that is called Kastriot to this day). And about his Serb mother that miraculously is never specifically called a Serb by anyone, except by Serbs. Hell, she's mentioned time and time again in chronicles, biographies, etc., yet for some reason they never call her a Serb. And why not, I mean obviously that would be a defining characteristic if she was? And then there the seal which is immediately trumpeted as evidences of his "Greekness", despite being wildly inaccurate (king of Turks? Bulgars, Serbs, Greeks? How exactly is he there king when he never ruled over anyone but Albanians? Might as well say king of Mayas, or Chinese, or Zulus). It isn't even funny how old this is...