Talk:Ska

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Removal date: 8 November 2006

Contents

[edit] 2002 Cleanup

What a lot of jerking around I just did between scat singing, mouth music, ska, and skat. Please see the relevant talk pages for further notes on what I have done, but basically I thought there was a lot of excellent information, links, history, etc, that was not quite in the right places, so I moved it. I hope I haven't trodden too hard on anyone's toes, but it seemed worth the effort to me, and remember, it can always be reverted, although I'd suggest yelling at me ikn the various talk pages first. Ortolan88 04:35 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] First Jamaican music

I removed the patently false claim that ska was the first jamaican music. There were natives there for centures before recorded history, and they surely had music, and the article itself later mentioned mento, a tradition folk music that predates ska by decades.

I also removed this because it was out of place and I couldn't quite understand it. Something very similar could be appropriate, but I just didn't get this:

It is reported that the phrase "Skavoovie" was a greeting used by "Clue J," whenever greeting the Skatalites and Coxsone Dodd. Cluett Johnson, better known as Clue J. Johnson, or "Clue J" was the bassist and leader of "Clue J and the Blues Blasters." He lead that late 1950s Jamaican musical group. That music group spawned some of the greatest musicians of the ska era (1962-1966). Tuf-Kat 07:17 17 May 2003 (UTC)

[edit] The Wailers

I guess I'm having some problems with this... why do people insist on referring to the Wailers (the original name of the band) as Bob Marley AND the Wailers? Equally frustrating is the fact that the Wailers redirects to Bob Marley. I guess we've forgotten about Peter Tosh and Bunny Livingston. vudu 16:05, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Because on many record jakets it is called just that

[edit] Sublime

Is Sublime an important 90's ska band? Should it be included as an example? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 47.234.0.52 (talk • contribs). 5 February 2004

Whenever I go to a poster site or whatever and do the generic search of "ska", Sublime is one or two bands that usually shows up. I'd say it's pretty well known to include. I'm not so sure about most of these other bands under the Third Wave Ska category, though. Half of them don't even have pages. If we're going to include them, they should be or have done something worthy of note. Just because a band 'brings the mosh' or 'rocks hardcore' is no reason to include it in an encyclopedic article. Which of these can we dump to shorten the list? Mr. Internet 14:05, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] standardization

I just noticed, upon visiting the Jazz page, how erratic standardization for EVERYTHING is. Someone ought to add that little table to the right of this page. Lockeownzj00 01:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ska (band)

ska is the best third wave ska band ever, it should be mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.112.58.139 (talk • contribs). 26 January 2005

[edit] Reorganization

I changed around this page, hardly deleted anything, just rearranged sections under headings so that the different waves could be easily seen and separate. falcolombardi87 22 April 2005

[edit] Linking to related topics

I never like seeing See Also sections in an entry. Is there some place we can include these references in the article's main body? Some of the links in the list are also linked elsewhere (e.g., skinhead, Jamaica). Can these be removed entirely? Mr. Internet 04:10, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the 'See Also' section could be removed and the links put somewhere else in the article. It might also be worthwhile to remove the 'Ska Musicians of Note' section and add all the bands to the ska groups category - Category:Ska groups.falcolombardi87 23 April 2005

I removed the See Also section as every link contained within was somewhere else on the page. I don't mind adding all the "Musicians of Note" to the category page, but I am unclear on how to do so. Mr. Internet 21:38, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

OK cool, editing categories is quite easy. At the moment there is a category called Ska groups which holds a few ska bands and a sub category for third wave ska groups (It might be worthwhile to add subcategories for first wave and second wave bands, but then that wouldn't leave any bands in the ska groups category if you see what I mean). To access it just search for Category:Ska groups.

To add a page/band to a category just add a phrase like this at the bottom of the band page using the edit section: [[Category:Ska groups]] will add the page/band to the Ska groups category while putting [[Category:Third wave ska groups]] at the bottom will add the page/band to the third wave subcategory. The category link will appear at the bottom after saving the page, but not in preview.

To create a subcategory you must create a category page by creating a page as normal (Category pages always start with Category: then the page name) or by adding a category phrase at the bottom of a band page which I think should automatically create the category. Then edit the page and put the phrase [[Category:Ska groups]] and this will create a subcategory within Ska groups. In this way you can create a network of categories.

Hope this explains, I know it's long winded. falcolombardi87 16:37, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I've created three more categories for 1st, second and fourth wave. I suppose it's up to people to put the relevant bands in the correct categories then they can be removed from the ska page and a link created maybe.falcolombardi87 17:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I've gone through both the first and second wave lists, adding the category tag to any group that actually had a page. I will rest up before I do the third wave pages, so I can plow through the utter monotony in one fell swoop. As for editing the lists once all the categorization is done, I think the best thing to do would be list all artists listed on the page under each wave's heading, and include a link to a "more complete listing" on the category page, where people can throw on all the bands they wish. Mr. Internet 21:08, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, cool. falcolombardi87 25 Apr 2005

[edit] Fourth Wave?

[edit] Initial Note

Before you Classify the Fourth Wave, remember: "As it stands, the idea of a fourth wave is still speculation, not fact. This counts as original research, and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:No original research -Spylab 00:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab"

[edit] Discussion

I don't think Christian ska qualifies as a Fourth Wave. Besides the fact that Christian is a lyrical and not a musical classification (there are Christian bands covering all genres, not only or primarily ska), it's nowhere near widespread enough to warrant it being labeled the "Fourth Wave". Each wave of ska, as I see it, is accompanied by a substantial change in the musical style coupled with a boom in popularity. Since neither of these have happened with Christian ska, or at all since the Third Wave, I think the Fourth Wave section should be removed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mouseclicker (talk • contribs). 27 April 2005

I can agree with that. Mr. Internet 04:31, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I know what you mean. I think it should at least be given a mention though, even if it's just 1 or 2 sentences - some recognize it as a wave, and the article should be representative of all things ska. You could remove the heading and just fit it in somewhere.falcolombardi87 19:49, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
I like the changes that have been made regarding Christian ska. But I took out a sentence that didn't describe the subject accurately and added a few words on Five Iron Frenzy. falcolombardi87 14:25, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)
If Christian ska is considerd a forth wave, then what about the crack rock steady ska? It was a lot more invateiv* then Christian ska and was third wave, if not completely parrerl*

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.185.153.169 (talk • contribs). 17 February 2006

I think there needs to be some mention of the band The Israelites, who were the first Christian ska band, formed back in 1989. Although their style is based on the Jamaican model of the 1960's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.232.126.142 (talk • contribs). 27 March 2006

Again, a section for the alleged fourth wave of ska has been added. Should we leave it/take it out? The paragraph directly above the section contradicts it too - so it needs sorting out. falcolombardi87 15:09, Jun 30, 2005 (UTC)

Hi, I wrote the fourth wave, and I think it's fairly valid. I mean there has been a huge surge of ska-emo-screamo fusion bands popping up all over the place. I figured the trend needed to b recorded. What do you think needs to be sorted out, because a good sorting probably wouldn't be useless. ryman64b 24:00, Jul 3, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Ryan but its more of a prediction than fact since a majority of ska that is coming out now is still in the third wave rather than the fourth. It might not become true but it would definatly be a branch of ska.deusexomega 23:00, Jul 3, 2005 (UTC)
We had this conversation before (see above), and it does need sorting out. A compromise could be to say that the fourth wave argument is gaining poularity, but is not yet fully recognised. If this is going to be in the article, then there should also be the mention that some believe the fourth wave to be the Christianisation of ska - that's what this article used to say. Agree/disagree? falcolombardi87 19:28, July 5, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think anything should be labeled "fourth wave" yet, especially not while a bunch of third wave ska bands are still quite popular and releasing albums. I personally haven't noticed a sudden boom of "emo/screamo" ska bands, and the ones I have heard are definitely close enough to third wave to be classified as such. Look, the fourth wave won't come until we have Top 10 ska hits again- when that happens, we can all come here and agree that we're in the fourth wave. Until then, let's remove any fourth wave talk. Mouseclicker 5 July 2005 22:14 (UTC)
Agreed. It seems that this is more of a sub-movement in the emo/screamo genre than an actual "Fourth Wave" of ska. Also, if the section does stay in, it really needs to be cleaned up. ZombiesAhoy 7 July 2005 05:16 (UTC)
It does kind of seem as if some people are trying to force the 4th Wave. I think it should be given a mention, but only to say that a minority believe it to be true for whatever reason. I really can't see any truth in the description of the 4th Wave and there aren't even any bands that are named at the bottom in 'Ska Musicians of Note', which shows that it is hardly popular. falcolombardi87 11:42, July 7, 2005 (UTC)

For that section to have any validity it needs at least one or two examples. I also cleaned it up a bit. Lockeownzj00 8 July 2005 17:47 (UTC)

Yeah, cool, at least people won't think that everyone agrees with the 4th wave now. falcolombardi87 21:13, July 8, 2005 (UTC)
As founder of the 4th wave page I'm quite happy with the results! user:Ryman64bRyman64b 24:33, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

I really can't see how LTJ and Streetlight Manifesto are any different to any other Third Wave groups. They're definitely not emo, which is what the description suggests. I don't really get it. I know they've evolved soundwise, but all bands do. falcolombardi87 15:52, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

i think people are just eager to 'be a part' of something, that is, the fourth wave... they're so eager, they're imagining it where it does not exist. People, ska is still walking from the third wave, when the third wave dies, can there be a chance for a fourth.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sonofaresiii (talk • contribs). 17 January 2006

My personal view of what fourth wave ska is going to sound like is more of a european soudning ska. In my eyes streetlight manifesto and bandits of the acoustic revolution are 4th wave ska and cannot be catgorized as third, second or first wave.

  • I again deleted the Fourth Wave Ska section after waiting to see if anyone would add any external references to prove that it is an acknowledged term. As it stands, the idea of a fourth wave is still speculation, not fact. This counts as original research, and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:No original research -Spylab 00:47, 27 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab

I have to agree with the first and second to last opinions. Christian Ska cannot be a wave, as the style of play stays the same. As for BotAR and Streetlight, they are opening the possibility of a fourth wave, sounding very Eastern European.

Begin Little tinyfish response

Waves are decided by location and height in popularity. You can't say something is a wave until it declines in popularity, so to say that a fourth wave is emerging...we don't know that, because there is nothing happening.
1st Wave - 60s. Located in Jamaica
2nd Wave - Late 70s-Early 80s. Located in Britain.
3rd Wave - Mid-90s...possibly through mid 2000s. Located in America.
4th Wave - Possibilities exist, though I would say that Christian ska rose and fell with the third wave, definitively marking them as third wave. What about the recent rise in popularity in ska in Russia? That'd give it a new time period and location? But I'm not going to say because like I said before, you can't say something is a wave until it declines in popularity.
I'm gonna try to find some sources on this.
Also, don't we need sources on this stuff? We can't decide what is a wave and what is not..legitimate sources do.

End Little tinyfish response, December 26, 2006

[edit] Messed up history

I am certainly no expert on Ska, but the whole history of this seems messed up to me. There is hardly anything written on the second wave. I would definitely class The Toasters as a second-wave band. There era, sound and attitude all point them out to be such.

There is no mention of Operation Ivy in the history, which seems like a glaring omission. AFAIK, it was them and the Bosstones that kicked off the third wave. I think not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that third wave is essentially a narrowing of the ska sound into a hybrid of ska and pop-punk (No Doubt etc.), and ska and hardcore (Operation Ivy, Catch 22 etc.). Forget all that rubbish about it being influenced by jazz.

Too much is written on the so-called "fourth wave" of Ska, which has not actually happened yet. I think people are confusing hardcore sounding third-wave bands, and punk bands with horns, to be something they're not. The bands listed there are definitely not emo/screamo influenced.

-- Movint 07/14/2005

Yeah, I agree, apart from the The Toasters are a Third Wave band IMO. Add to the article. falcolombardi87 19:00, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Op Ivy ought to be included, certainly, but classifying third wave as only ska-core or ska and pop-punk hybrids is far too limiting. re: jazz, bands like Easy Big Fella and the Scofflaws were far closer to jazz-influenced music than to hardcore or pop-punk. I might even say there was a trend toward a small rockabilly influence with a band like Lucky 7. (SaraFist, 08 March 06)

Wait, why are The Toasters not credited with esentially creating the ska phenomenon in the US with the 3rd wave? Keep in mind this band was making records while Dickey Barret, Gwen Stephani, Aaron Barret, Brad Nowell and Jason Navarro were still smoking in the bathrooms at school!! C'mon, NYC ska founded in 1981, so this band is starting in America when no other prominent ska bands were coming out of the states, and when the Specials, The Beat, Madness, etc are still around. DJ Citizen D

[edit] First use of word

To note [1] and [2] where the OED/BBC are looking to see if "ska" was used before 1964. --Henrygb 21:48, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

See my comment re: Blue Beat, below.—mjb 07:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two Tone

The article suggjests that the second wave was named only for the record lable, but in fact it was named for all the two tone things happening —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lunarsurface (talk • contribs). 28 December 2005

[edit] Infobox

This article needs an infobox of its own, {{reggaebox}} is not quite appropriate. Both {{reggaebox}} and {{jamaicanmusic}} will have to go once said Infobox is up. A Music of Jamaica link should remain in the "Other topics" secion of the new box, though. Circeus 04:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mento and other missing topics

I think it should be mentioned that first wave is a combination of all R&B, jazz and Jamaican mento. Mento was the immidiate predecessor to ska, as its golden age was the 50s in Jamaica. Also, the mention of the two tone suits is important as it is important to the whole term of "rude boy" being the Jaimaican gangsters of the 50s and 60s who were paid to cause trouble at dancehalls, thereby increasing the possiblity of clients at other dancehalls. This is where the name of the band, Dance Hall Crashers came from. The suits were important to show that they were gangsters, even if they were poor, they had the nice suits to show they were gangsters. You can use the example of "bling" in modern hip hop and rap culture as an analogy here. Some of the artists which should be mentioned are Lauren Aitken, which I believe is already in there, Desmond Dekker, Judge Dread and Toots and The Maytals.

In terms of two tone ska, I would mention Madness. It is important to mention the integration of blacks from Jaimica and whites from UK and how that played into the whole culture of unity, and mention SHARPS. The Specials should be mentioned as perhaps the best two tone band.

In terms of thrid wave I would mention The Suicide Machines, argueably the best example of ska-core music and The Assorted Jelly Beans.

In refrence to the debate of forth wave, it is arguable that bands which emphasize the hardcore sound of ska-core more than the ska part are the fourth wave of ska. These bands include Chicagos Not Too Good and Tusker as well as, perhaps the best example of this, New Jerseys Folly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.163.189.119 (talk • contribs). 8 February 2006

[edit] Fusion genres

I would hardly put Reaggaeton in there. It's more of a rap/reggae fusion. Ska to me seems like a fusion itself. That second position is arguable, but I think we can agree that reagaeyon was very little influenced, if at all, by Ska. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.96.102.166 (talk • contribs). 22 March 2006

[edit] Ska/Soul Revivial

What about the new bands coming out such as Westbound Train, the Aggrolites, Deal's Gone Bad, etc, who are using the old soulful sound of reggae and ska. Is this considered a new wave? Or a ska soul revival? --DJ Citizen D 02:00, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Beat

A cursory search shows that "Blue Beat", which is not yet mentioned in the article, was the term used in the UK for all Jamaican music, including ska, before the term "ska" made its way to the UK, and is described as having morphed into ska (though a user above mentions "mento" as well). Surprisingly, Jamaican blues, Blue Beat Records, and the Blue Beat genre are not mentioned in the ska or Music of Jamaica articles at all. Would someone be so kind as to add some kind of mention? I'd do it myself, but I'm already overextended. A reference is here.—mjb 07:42, 6 May 2006 (UTC) Another reference: here.—mjb 04:37, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Too much Third Wave

There's too much emphasis on third wave ska bands in this article. Many of them sound almost nothing like real ska anyway. There's a separate article on Third Wave Ska, so there's no need to list so many third wave bands here. Spylab 03:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)spylab

I don't agree. Third wave is the most modern incarantion of ska. Its length is about as long as the second wave, and both are significantly shorter than the first wave. I think that this is appropriate. (The third wave of ska might be looked down upon by fans of the first and/or second waves, but it's still a legitamite genre based on the fact that so many bands recognize it. It deserves to be covered significantly in the Ska article.) -DanDanRevolution 17:41, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to list so many third wave bands. Listing band names doesn't help people understand what third wave ska is, and those bands are already listed in the Third wave of ska article and in the List of ska musicians anyway. People keep adding their favourite bands, and it just clutters up the article. Spylab 17:39, 17 May 2006 (UTC)spylab


I just fixed up the third wave peice a little bit, it barely mentioned the toasters or Op Ivy/Bosstones role in bringing it about. Also it had Reel Big Fish listed as neo-trad ska. Mathew Allen - 20 May 2006

Whoever wrote in that Third Wave ska is rock with horns doesn't know what they're talking about. A large number of bands use exclusively upchords and ska rythms. The description which was already there detailed 'marrying punk with ska' and such, which is exactly what it is. I don't see why this change was necessary.

Wow!!! I actually think this entry is acurrate now!

129.174.54.124 21:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)/* POV In 2 Tone Section */ ==POV In 2 Tone Section==

Hey, there's no mention here at all about the Argenitean ska craze... The ska scene in Argentina is HUGE, relatively speaking, compared to that of the United States. It is STILL going on. I won't be able to write about it for a while, since I'm no expert, but something has to be said about it, as well as of its many, many bands. Demf 11:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speed Calypso?

"One other theory is that it was merely an abbreviation of the term "speed calypso", which may be an accurate description of the music"

Does anyone have a citation for this? I've never heard of it before and sounds like a backronym to me. It just seems a little odd, I mean 'speed calypso' really isn't an accurate description of ska, unless you're listening to third wave and can't tell the difference between calypso and ska.The emo canaries 20:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


Yeah, that does sound like someone's personal pet hypothesis, and I've never heard it before in 25 years of reading about and playing ska. Should it just be removed, or is that bad ettiquette? 82.35.28.217 01:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm removing it, I can't find any sources that suggest this theory nor do I believe it has any real validity, if anyone can substantiate the claim then it can be put back in.The emo canaries 05:59, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] madness did the most to bring two tone to the public eye?

Madness may have lasted longer then most other ska bands however they were only on the two tone label for one single, and moved on from there ska sound after there early LPs During the peak of the second wave of ska the specials were alot more popular, perhapes this should be removed


"The band to do the most to bring two-tone to the public eye in the UK was Madness who's highly entertaining videos where heavily included on early MTV and on the BBC's influencal music show "Top of the Pops"..."

This quote is opinionated, and gramatically incorrect. I would delete it, but it there anything else that mention Madness in the article?Atticus2020 04:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


Madness definitely was one of the first 2nd wave groups to rise above a subcultural status and became (inter)nationally known. It's not all opinion...129.174.54.124 21:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)tad

  • Yes, but there is big difference between saying they were one of the most influential, and saying they did the most of all of the bands.Spylab 07:33, 17 September 2006 (UTC)Spylab
  • granted129.174.73.45 02:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)tad

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 03:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for GA Delisting

This article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

(b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

LuciferMorgan 00:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Uptones and The Untouchables

Hi, I'm a newbie to this process but i am certain the entry I am trying to make is valid and important to this article. I saw The Uptones in this article but that has since been deleted. So I tried to add them, and my entry was deleted. The Uptones pre-date nearly all of the bands listed as third wave ska. They were extremely popular on the west coast throughout the 80's. They played from 1981 to 1989, and were a top bay area act by 1983. They sold out every major nightclub in the San Francisco bay area repeatedly. They also played support for UB40, Madness, the English Beat, The Go-Go's, General Public, Steel Pulse, and Billy Idol. Members of Operation Ivy have cited The Uptones as a major influence. Rancid covered the Uptones' "Get Out Of My Way" on their first album.

The problem with fitting The Uptones into this article has to do with the basic way the article is structured: original ska, two-tone ska, and third wave ska. This breakdown as a timeline is somewhat flawed. "Two-tone" does not just describe an era and a record label, it is also used to describe a type of ska music, regardless of when it was/is made. The Uptones play in the two-tone style, and they were influenced greatly by The Specials, Madness, the Selecter, and the English Beat. The most key two-tone band, The Specials, had stopped playing by 1981. Third wave ska had not started yet, and the phrase third wave had not yet been coined. The Uptones in Northern California, and The Untouchables in Southern California, played ska as headliners to thousands of dancing fans starting in the very early 1980's. So no discussion of ska in America and the transition from two-tone era to so-called third wave ska is complete without mentioning these two notable bands.

Equally glaring, as someone else mentioned here, is the omission of Operation Ivy. Op Ivy was, more than any other band, the flashpoint that informed all the punk ska that followed.

Ska trek 1969 06:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't know anything about the Uptones, and never heard of them before they were mentioned on Wikipedia, but I do know that the Untouchables played soul and mod revival, not ska. Also, I'm pretty sure the term third wave ska was first used to describe British bands that came after 2-Tone in the early 1980s, such as the Loafers, Riffs, Skadows and Mr. Review Spylab 07:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The Untouchables also played ska, but indeed, they were mod r&b band primarily. The mod and ska audiences in California overlapped quite a bit then. Interesting about the "third wave ska" term being used in England after two-tone. I've heard of the Loafers, but I've never heard of Riffs, Skadows or Mr. Review. But then, I don't live in England. Ska trek 1969 03:45, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I added The Uptones to the article again, in the place where they fit best in the article as written. I feel it's preposterous to cite Bim Skala Bim and The Toasters there without adding The Uptones. As for the Untouchables, I feel strongly that they have a hand in this story too. They weren't a ska band really, but rather a mod r&b band that played a lot of great ska when hardly anyone else was doing it, and they certainly influenced No Doubt and other bands that followed. So I feel The Untouchables should be in this article as well but I'm not sure where. As for the Uptones, here are two links that vet the statements I added to the article today. http://www.mystrands.com/artist/12697/biography and http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/penny/978/facts.htm

  • I just touched up the writing in the section and added a mention of the Untouchables, with the disclaimer that they were mostly a mod/soul band. Those links should be added into the article as references (and to the Uptones article). Spylab 17:29, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third Wave Ska Bands Become Pop-Punk

There is a contested part of the Third Wave section that says most third wave bands changed their sound to be more pop punk. I believe this to be a gross generalization as many of those bands don't conform specifically to the pop-punk genre, since many of them have European, jazz, rock and metal influences (among others), as well as continuing to use any wave of ska as an inspiration. I don't see why we have to cordon them into the pop-punk genre, nor do I believe any reference to this effect to exist. Discuss?Little tinyfish 02:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

  • The sentence does not refer to all third wave ska bands. It refers to specific bands, so that is not generalizing. This is exactly what the sentence says:

Counted among them are Reel Big Fish, Suburban Legends, Streetlight Manifesto, Catch 22, The Aquabats!, Mad Caddies, and Less Than Jake, (most of which started moving away from the ska-influenced sound to become more pop punk-oriented).

Do you dispute the truthfulness of that statement? If so, what part of the sentence is inaccurate? Spylab 10:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

    • I don't believe they moved specifically to pop-punk; I believe each band evolved their own fusion of sounds. It just seems like a horribly generalized statement. -unsigned

I'll change it so it doesn't say pop punk, but all of those bands definitely moved away from the ska sound. Spylab 10:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

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