Talk:Sir Gawain and the Green Knight
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I see that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight now figures in the Category "Literature of the United Kingdom" A naive anachronism like this is bound to spread its own confusion among Wikipedia readers. Would it be officious to remove it?--Wetman 00:21, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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- I'm not sure how one would remove it, but it should be removed. SGGK is specifically English literature, not Scots, or Welsh, or Cornish. It's profoundly English in that it's localized to a specific English dialect from the South West Midlands.
DigitalMedievalist 22:04, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) Lisa
I'm going to mention that the severed head is one of the aspects of Celtic mythology present in the story. CountMippipopolous 14 Apr 2005
- That's a sound point, but you'll need to give it some context or folks'll be taken aback. I mean, you're correct, but it's not general knowledge and needs to be presented.--Wetman
- I've clarified the reference to the beheading game in Bricriu's Feast, linking it to the relevant article and also referencing it to Tolkien/Gordon. However, I've removed the reference to the Black Death, which seemed unsubstantiated. If this is an inappropriate edit, perhaps someone can reinstate it, with an appropriate reference.Martin Turner 18:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
I asked User:DigitalMedievalist "I wonder, where you've recently reverted an edit, if you wouldn't go back and quote the line about Morgan le Fay and Merlin (you gave the line number) and actually edit your point about their connection into the text for us. Thanks." (Wetman 22:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC))
I'm perfectly willing to do that--but the line has a thorn in it--and I can't determine how Wikipedia wants thorn to be handled; html entity? Unicode?
DigitalMedievalist 05:09, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)Lisa
[edit] Question Mark
When I look at this text, I get what looks like a question mark in the SGGK text. Is this some sort of problem, or is it a glottal stop symbol?211.225.32.196 06:42, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm getting squares in place of your question marks, I think. It's where a yogh belongs. It displayed fine in Safari on a Mac, but it's boxes on this Windows PC with a presumably up-to-date Internet Explorer; maybe it's a problem with Unicode on Windows (stab in the dark)? (don't know how to time-date stamp, don't have time to figure it out right now)
[edit] Inaccuracies
According to The Ithaca Online [1], this article has inaccuracies. Where are they?
- "Michael Twomey, professor of English, said he looked up “Sir Gawain and the Green Night.” He talks about the medieval poem in class and has published articles about it. He said he found factual errors and misleading statements in the entry.
Twomey said he could edit the entry, but the original writer could easily change it back. “In his mind, ‘Sir Gawain’ is his turf, and he doesn’t want anyone else messing with it,” Twomey said. Since the editing process can become a battle of wills, Twomey said he advises his students not to rely on Wikipedia."
If there are inaccuracies, and if indeed someone has this on their watchlist and won't accept revisions, can I please ask them to consider constructive criticism? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:10, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Shouldn't students be relying on the poem rather than looking at articles in encyclopedias?Martin Turner 17:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- I looked through the article history, and I can't find what he's talking about. The "original writer" is Heron, and he hasn't been back again since 03. This has been on my watchlist for some time now, and I haven't seen anyone here reverting genuine corrections or acting like they own the article. Personally, I'd love to see an expert improve Sir Gawain, or at least tell us what's wrong with it. Where exactly are those inaccuracies?--Cúchullain t/c 20:46, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Good question. Sounds a bit like a disgruntled academic who hasn't reviewed the article in quite a while. Pity. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
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- Yes, this imaginary editor who reverts all corrections is a lousy excuse for the professor not to dig in and help - but let's improve the article anyway. Haukur 08:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Indeed there are inaccuracies in the article. The timeline of events at the mysterious castle is incorrect.
First of all, Sir Gawain arrives at the mysterious castle on Christmas morning, not Christmas Eve:
“This way, in danger, in pain and hardship, Over the land the knight rides till Christmas Eve, alone;
Then, in despair on his ride, He cries in a plangent tone That Mary be his guide To a house, a warm hearth-stone.
Next morning he rides on merrily, beside a hill, Into a dark wood, wonderfully wild.”
Secondly, the feasting and general Christmas celebrations continue until St John’s day (27 December), “the final festive day”, not just until the day after he arrives. It is at the end of this day, after the guests that are due to depart the next morning have gone to bed, that the lord is told of Sir Gawain’s quest, the proximity of the Green Chapel is revealed and the bargain made
The next morning (28 December) the guests depart, the lord hunts deer and, that evening, receives a kiss in exchange for the venison. It is misleading to suggest that not divulging the source of the kiss was “according to the lord’s bargain” since the reason Sir Gawain gives is “… not part of the pact” and he dismisses the lord’s question with “ask me no more”.
On 29 December the lord hunts boar and receives two kisses in exchange for the boar.
Finally, on the evening of 30 December, he receives three kisses in exchange for the fox pelt.
Here the poet’s sense of time fails him because he thinks the next day is New Year’s Day, whereas it is 31 December.
Anyway, Sir Gawain sets out for the encounter with the Green Knight on New Year’s Day.
It should also be mentioned that the identity of the lord is revealed as Sir Bercilak of Hautdesert. This is missing from the article.
It seems highly misleading to theorise that the poet intends to imply that the Order of the Garter originated with King Arthur from this incident, since a girdle worn over one shoulder and passing under the opposite armpit is definitely not a garter. Cliff 11:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC) The Order of the Garter link is a well established theory in the critical literature. However, it is not (to my knowledge) suggested that the girdle relates to the garter, nor that the poet is implying it originates with King Arthur. Nonetheless, the use of the Order of the Garter motto to conclude the poem is an explicit link. I quote the note on line 2514 from Tolkien/Gordon 2nd edition of the poem edited by Norman Davis: "This decision has sometimes been taken as an indication that the poem was composed with reference to some order of knighthood … The legend at the end of the peom Hony soyt qui mal pence is the motto of the order of the Garter…" In fact the editors do not find this link particularly convincing, and point out that the parallel poem 'the Green Knight' claims that the collar is the founding of the order of the Bath. Nonetheless, the suggested link is one that has exercised a number of scholars.Martin Turner 17:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
One thing about Gawain is that there is no real consensus on what the story means, so to present any single point of view is misleading in itself. Maybe this article needs more interpretations (Feminist, Religious, etc.) although I think it balances the opinions currently in it very well. Wrad 03:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
