Talk:Sinmiyangyo

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Contents

[edit] 2nd Paragraph

At least the second paragraph of this article is copied verbatim from http://www.shinmiyangyo.org and I suspect the rest of the article is copied from somewhere else on the net. Should we delete the entry or just blank it? —Frecklefoot 17:09, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

yeah it was copied. uh.... i'll edit it (Wikimachine 01:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Citation

The citations do not provide publisher, or the author. It's very vague. Could anybody fix that? Thanks. (Wikimachine 16:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Grammar

The text needs to be copy-edited. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kdammers (talk • contribs) 06:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Proposed move

I suggest that this page be moved to US Campaign against Korea, 1871 for better accessibility. The same thing has already been done to French Campaign against Korea, 1866.--Niohe 02:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support per Niohe. (Wikimachine 03:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC))
  • Oppose There is no firmly established name in English for this event, so the Korean name is better as the title of the article. I think it makes more sense to use redirects for the several variants of United States Expedition to Korea of 1871 - incidentally, I can find no instances of US Campaign against Korea, 1871 anywhere, but it could be a redirect, too. Pinkville 14:35, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - But you surely agree that the current title is not very elegant? US Campaign against Korea, 1871 is just one possible title of this article, if you can come up with a better title in English, I'm all ears.--Niohe 14:40, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't at all agree that the current title is "not very elegant". It's a Korean name and merely unfamiliar to most English speakers, like millions of other names of different origins used in English. Sinmiyangyo is no less elegant than Dubrovnik or Purim, etc. Two passable English titles would be United States Expedition to Korea of 1871 or United States-Korea War of 1871, both of which have been used in a handful of publications, but neither is authoritative or well established. One of the important aspects of this war is the fact that knowledge of it has been virtually erased from American History, and that fact is reflected in its lack of name. So I'd rather use the Korean name, following from such precedents as Ragnarök, Ramadan and other events that are known in English by the name of their language of origin. Pinkville 15:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I see what you mean. But we are not importing new words into the English language. Why don't we use United States Expedition to Korea of 1871 instead?--Niohe 17:05, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not a question of importing a new word - Sinmiyangyo has already been used in English-language texts to refer to this war. In fact, it seems to be the only well-defined, established name for the conflict. [I've looked in many reference sources such as Library of Congress, various encyclopedias, etc.]. Pinkville 23:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Google Search Results

  • Google Web in 1st 30 results for Sinmiyangyo
  • Sinmiyangyo
  • English titles:
  • Google Web in 1st 30 results for US Aggression of Korea 1871
  • English titles:
  • English titles:

- These are mostly Korean tourist websites, written in bad English. Is that the standard we should adopt?--Niohe 00:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Google Scholar in 1st page for Sinmiyangyo: 4

- That reference is to a non-academic website. The actual article doesn't use the term a single time.--Niohe 00:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Google Scholar in 1st 70 results for US invasion of Korea 1871: None

Note: Most of the results for Shinmiyangyo were Korean government websites or tourist attractions. (Wikimachine 21:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC))

I did a bit of research again today into the name variants and similarly found that "Sinmiyangyo" was the only established name for this conflict. None of the English descriptive names for Sinmiyangyo are well-defined and would certainly pose searchability problems. Pinkville 23:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in Korea, Sinmiyangyo is the most common way of referring to the conflict, for quite obvious reasons. I have found no evidence that this event is referred to as such in academic sources so far. I just did a search on JSTOR on Sinmiyangyo and Sinmi yangyo and it yielded zero (0) results.--Niohe 23:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

In most academic works I have looked at, "Sinmiyangyo" is referred to as the "Korean expedition 1871", or variants thereof. Even the lead of this article refers to the incident as Korean Expedition. From browsing the web, I am also lead to believe that the incident was referred to as the Korean expedition by contemporary English-speaking observers and by the US government itself when it awarded honors to participants in the expedition.

--Niohe 23:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose. It seems to have already been established above that the Korean name is Sinmiyangyo (with only four syllables). It is written 신미양요 in Korean. Though I don't speak Korean and my understanding of Korean phonology and the romanization of Korean is minimal, I think that "Sinmiyangyo" is the obvious romanization. (Indeed, apart from Yale, which I think is seldom used other than in linguistics, perhaps it's the only principled romanization.) So there's good reason for the name and its spelling. Alternatives suggested by Niohe include "US Campaign against Korea, 1871" (fifteen syllables) and "Korean expedition 1871" or a variant thereof. The orthographically conservative would want "U.S.", not "US"; people from the US seem to prefer "American". It could be "Campaign" or "campaign". It could be a campaign, an expedition, an attack, a retribution or any of various other things. Whatever it is, perhaps it must be accompanied by a year to distinguish it from later military adventures. (And Cheney and Rove still have time to start another one.) What complication! I see no reason to change this from "Sinmiyangyo". -- Hoary 10:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Comment - Oh geez, what am I hearing? I thought that we were supposed to stick to English names in English Wikipedia. And I have to explain why? This is such a waste of time.--Niohe 11:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As often happens, it looks like Shinmiyangyo is a common English spelling, not conforming to the official romanization system. When I Googled "Korea 1871 -Wikipedia", the first site was http://www.shinmiyangyo.org/, and shinmiyangyo occurs several times in the first page of results. If you do want to use the Niohe's suggestion, it seems "Campaign" is used more than "Expedition" CronusXT 16:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The page should be moved to an English name

I looked at the links above, and as I said, most of them come from Korea. That Korean sites in English use transcribed Korean should come as no surprise - but that should not be the standard of Wikipedia; we should avoid Neologisms. Remember, this is English Wikipedia. Moreover, Google hits should be used with discretion and not as conclusive proofs

Now, I suggest that this page be moved to United States Expedition to Korea in 1871, which is a fairly common way of referring to the incident. Here is another source, on top of the ones I quoted above.

If you do not like the English title, please suggest a better one. But I hope we can go on and make this move soon.--Niohe 15:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Any (necessarily constructed) English title for this article will be a neologism, since there is no definitive English name. As I mentioned, I've searched a number of authoritative reference works as well as Google, the results convincing me, at least, that any of the English terms for this conflict are spontaneous constructions, not accepted names/variants. Looking more closely at United States Expedition to Korea in 1871, there is only one Google hit for this (when I first mentioned this possible name I had found it in a handful of print publications), the web source being that which you linked above: the (US) Navy Department Library. That's certainly a reasonable source, but what about the U.S. Army Center of Military History and the United States Marine Corps, History Division which give Korean Campaign, 1871 and 1871 Korean Campaign, respectively? And what about The Journal of American History's mention of the (Unknown [!]) United States-Korea War of 1871 or Douglas E. George's Master's thesis on the Low-Rodgers Expedition of 1871? Or even the above-mentioned David F. Winkler article Marine amphibious landing in Korea, 1871, published in Sea Power, the "official magazine of the Navy League of the United States"? None of these, nor other examples I found, have much acceptance, the mass of them posing a tangle that is not likely to be easily unravelled. On the other hand, the Korean name for the conflict is well-established, easy to transliterate (and even pronounce) in English and can be found in the same form in many different sources, one being the Korean Government's National Heritage site. Retaining Sinmiyangyo as the name for the article is no different from retaining Purim as the name for the article that in English might otherwise be called the Jewish holiday that commemorates the deliverance from Haman's plot to annihilate all the Jews of the Persian Empire, or variations thereof. Pinkville 16:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Sigh. I just can't believe what I am seeing. Purim is a word in the OED, Sinmiyango is not. End of story. The fact that there are various different ways of referring to this event in English is no excuse for importing a neologism into the English language. Now, pick the English name you like the most and then we move the page. And stop this incessant references to Google.--Niohe 17:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
You should have gathered by now that I don't agree that the page should be moved. And I don't respond to bullying. Pinkville 17:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Niohe, as you neither own this article nor are higher than Pinkville within some sort of editorial hierarchy here, your use of the imperative is somewhat absurd. I see one reasonable objection to the title as it is, which is that its meaning is not immediately clear to people who understand English and don't understand Korean (and thus the overwhelming majority of users of en:WP). Point taken. The other objection, that it's a neologism, doesn't stand up. Your attempt to use inclusion of the OED as the single criterion for validity of a name in English is ludicrous, as the OED neither purports to be nor in any way resembles a dictionary of names. (If the OED were used in the way that you seem to advocate, tens of thousands of articles would have to be deleted from WP.) One reason why "Sinmiyangyo" is little used in English-language contexts is that its referent seldom comes up in English-language contexts; when it does come up, "Sinmiyangyo" is a relatively common way to phrase it. Unlike, say, "Ssinmiyeongyi" (which my extremely limited knowledge of Korean suggests is a well-formed if nonexistent string of Korean), "Sinmiyangyo" is easy to read and pronounce for people who speak English and not Korean. It has just four syllables. Meanwhile, your recommended United States Expedition to Korea in 1871 has eighteen syllables, has arguable PoV problems in euphemizing a destructive and homicidal action as a mere "expedition", and is not obviously superior to any of several alternative formulations in English, none of which is anywhere near as short as "Sinmiyangyo". -- Hoary 00:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not bullying anyone and you do not have a veto over this page. I am expressing frustration over the fact that I even have to justify a move from a title which makes no sense whatsoever to non-Korean speakers. Pinkville said earlier that this event has been erased from public memory. If you want this article to get more prominence (a sentiment I share) and make more sense to the average English-speaker, it is completely self-defeating to keep it under the present title.

In this regard it is completely immaterial that terms such as Ragnarök, Ramadan or Purim are used in the English language. All these terms are widely accepted and can be found in good dictionaries like OED. Sinmiyangyo is not yet an accepted term, and it is not our job to introduce new words into the English language. I simply cannot understand why so many people want to make Wikipedia into a dictionary.

Neither can I understand how and why choosing one of the suggested English names would create a neologism or constitute original research. United States Expedition to Korea in 1871 is a simple neutral description of the event which has been used in the past - we are not adding anything new or creating a new concept. Neither are we describing a recent event that is still developing and may be subject to a variety of different interpretations. Anyone with a basic command of English is able to understand what "United States Expedition to Korea in 1871" means. It is completely counterintuitive to list this article under Sinmiyangyo.--Niohe 00:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hoary, please assume good faith and don't misrepresent me. I have never said that OED is the "single criterion for validity of a name in English." You know that.--Niohe 00:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thousands of articles in Wikipedia have titles that are unfamiliar to most people (regardless of the language(s) they use). I'd be curious to know what percentage of English-speakers know the meaning of Ragnarök, Qilin, or more pointedly (because they're English terms), Pritchel, Collodion process, etc. Redirects from a selection of the English constructed names for Sinmiyangyo will work very nicely. There is no accepted term in English for this event, there is an accepted term in Korean that has been used in English texts as much or more than any English term. Pinkville 02:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
You didn't really respond to anything I said. How am I to interpret that?--Niohe 03:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad to find that I misunderstood your idea about the OED. I was misled by your comment Purim is a word in the OED, Sinmiyango is not. End of story. -- Hoary 03:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Sinmiyangyo is not yet an accepted term: Oh? It seems to me to be an accepted term. No, not a widely accepted term, but an accepted term nevertheless. I simply cannot understand why so many people want to make Wikipedia into a dictionary. Me neither. I agree that some people seem to want to do this. I do not see it here. Neither can I understand how and why choosing one of the suggested English names would create a neologism or constitute original research. I don't think anyone has alleged this. If I seem to have alleged this, it wasn't intended. United States Expedition to Korea in 1871 is a simple neutral description of the event which has been used in the past - we are not adding anything new or creating a new concept. It has indeed been used in the past. However, the capital "E" suggests that it's a widely recognized name, and I don't think it is. I also don't see it as an obviously simple neutral description, unless the euphemistic use "expedition" is accepted as standard English. (Perhaps it is; I'm merely saying that there is room for argument here.) -- Hoary 03:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. You are not being serious and you seem to prefer scoring cheap points. Go ahead. I refuse to engage into an argument as to whether we should use capital E or not. I have said that I can accept a wide range of different translations of the event (campaign, expedition, etc), and you chose to focus on a capital E.--Niohe 03:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Who do you think you are, exactly?! You can't ignore other editors and bolldoze your way through Wikipedia. I've moved the page back to its original title. You should probably take a little breather and cosider what you've done by moving this page precipitously, provocatively and in direct contradiction to the guidelines and decorum of Wikipedia. Pinkville 10:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Who do you think you are? I have given you due notice of my intention to move the page and I eventually did so. I have not ignored you and I am not the only editor who has supported a move to a better name. I have been involved in a number of discussions on pages where editors have defended the use of a neologism instead of an English term and these debates invariably end with a page move. This page is no different, and your choice to ignore Wikipedia policy by resorting to all kinds of spurious arguments is disruptive and borders on trolling. You do not have a veto over this page and you have not contributed anything constructive to the discussion beyond reiterating a point that does not conform with a reasonable interpretation of Wikipedia policies.

We have discussed a number of verifiable ways of rendering the name of this article in English and you still want to introduce a term that makes absolutely no sense to most non-speakers of Korean, by referring to Google hits and the use of the term Sinmyangyo in footnotes and tourist websites. I haven't seen a single example where an auhtortative history work refers to this event primarily as Sinmiyangyo Lee Ki-baik's excellent work on Korea history - which is full of terms in hanja and hangul - does not even list the term Sinmiyangyo. Can we just end this, and start discussing which English name of this article that is most preferable? Here is another policy, if you care:

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English)#Borderline_cases

If we followed this policy, we would just translate the name of this article to "Foreign disturbance of 1871". Would that do? That is how Lee Ki-baik refers to the event. But note, we are still discussing how to render the name of this article in English, because this is English Wikipedia.--Niohe 13:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have given you due notice of my intention to move the page and I eventually did so. Oh, is this Niohepedia? Interesting - and novel - notion of collaboration. I'll ask you kindly again. Take a break for a day or two and come back refreshed. I'll do the same. Pinkville 13:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I not going to take a break, I am going to retire from Wikipedia. This is not just about this particular debate, but a decision that has matured over the last couple of months. I have had it. There is absolutely no point in getting involved in fruitless debates over very simple policy issues. To reivent the wheel every time like this a waste of my time and this is the last straw. And Administrators just stand by and watch Wikipedia degenerating into a discussion club. Dispose of the page any way you like. Good bye.--Niohe 15:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to go. Every time we lose a non-conformist, Wikipedia gets worse. Anyways, could those advocating Sinmiyangyo provide at least one English document (not from a Korean government website, or tourist site) that uses the term Sinmiyangyo? At the same time, remember "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form." from WP:NAME. I'm pretty sure that almost no English reader can recognize the article by the term "Sinmiyangyo", so that "Sinmiyangyo" is an accepted term in the academia gives no effect. (Wikimachine 19:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC))
Do note the phrasing: "the English form". But there doesn't seem to be such a (more or less stable) thing, although of course one can think of ways to put it in English.
Yours is a very reasonable request until the very last part, where you lose me. If you don't want something from a Korean government website or a tourist site or (I tentatively infer) any academic source, I wonder what would satisfy you. A non-academic (but why?), non-government Korean source? If it's not Korean, I'm afraid it would have to be academic, because for Joe Q Notkorean Public, Korean history pales beside, say, Paris Hilton.
That matter aside, "my" library is unfortunately closed for a couple of weeks. -- Hoary 12:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I want sources either from non-academic or academic sites. (Wikimachine 17:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC))
Here are some serious, even academic, examples in English by non-Korean writers. They happen to use the "Shinmiyangyo" spelling, i.e. with an "h".
  • Thomas Duvernay's Shinmiyangyo site, with Duvernay's essay in which he uses both "The 1871 U.S.-Korea Conflict" and "Shinmiyangyo". Of course the site itself is called Shinmiyangyo. Duvernay is a Professor in the Department of English, Dong Guk University, Kyongju, South Korea.
  • Doug Sterner's article at HomeOfHeroes.com, which includes a link to another article on the "Shinmiyangyo".
also:
  • EON Images, in which the event is mentioned, but not named in English: "The U.S. subsequently launched a punitive expedition, referred to in Korean as Shinmiyangyo." Links are provided to both "Shinmiyangyo" and "Korean Punitive Expedition".
It's worth noting that several other English-language sources, while not using the term "S[h]inmiyangyo", at the same time do not provide a name in English, supporting my perception that there is no name in English for this event, but only spontaneous, ad hoc constructions to refer to it. Examples in which the event is described yet not named: the US Office of Naval History and Records, Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships, V. 2, 1963, pp. 144-145., The event was (not surprisingly) important enough in Korea to establish a name for it. If Americans (and/or other non-Koreans) had ever remembered the event there would undoubtedly be an accepted English name for it. So far as I can tell, Duvernay's and Sterner's essays are among the very few English-language descriptions of the conflict that run longer than a sentence or two. Sterner provides this bibliography:
  • Above and Beyond. Boston Publishing Company. Boston, MA, 1985
  • Beyers, W.F. & Keydel, O.F. Acts of Bravery. Platinum Press, Woodbury, NY, 1907
  • The Corean War. "Harper's Weekly, September 9, 1871
  • The Death of Hugh M'Kee. "Lexington Morning Herald". November 18, 1900 (Letter from Captain McIlvaine to his mother written June 22, 1871)
  • Hugh McKee, He Gained Immortal Fame. "Lexington Morning Herald. November 28, 1897
  • Runyon, Major C.F. Captain McLane Tilton and the Korean Incident of 1871, "Marine Corps Gazette, Volume 42, No. 2, February 1958
  • Tiger Hunt in Korea. "VFW Magazine", March 2000
  • Tyson, Carolyn A. Marine Amphibious Landing in Korea, 1871. Historical Branch, G-3 Division, Headaquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, January 1966
I wouldn't expect any English-language sources published more than 10 years ago to use the term "S[h]inmiyangyo" for what I think should be obvious reasons, but I'll try to find these publications and confirm one way or the other. Pinkville 02:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
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