Talk:Simon Tam

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There is an inconsistency in the article, discussing the way in which River was saved from the Alliance baddies. In one version (Firefly), she was retrieved by a 3rd party and put in a cryo box for Simon to pick up. In the movie version, Serenity, River is instead saved directly by Simon. Although these two seem contradictory at first, and are presented as such in the article, the timelines for Serenity and Firefly make that quite impossible. Firefly was waaaaay before Serenity, since Book and Anara had already left Serenity (the ship) when Simon saves River directly, Wash is still alive, and it's even stated so by Joss in the DVD commentary (I believe).

My conclusion is therefore that River was rescued twice: The first time, she was brought out by the third party for money, but did something between Episode 14 of Firefly and the beginning of Serenity to be captured again and require direct save-age by Simon. I'm not sure if this version of events is consistent with Serenity (movie), however, so please advise... 67.83.198.59 03:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

No, River was only saved the one time; it is a tiny bit of a retcon to show Simon actively saving her, but it still works. "[T]hey could sneak her out in cryo" doesn't mean they actually did; Simon is relating what they told him, not what actually happened. She still had to go into cryo to get off the planet, though, as a mildly psychotic girl would be hard to disguise. The ship that lifts them up isn't Serenity, it's the "underground movement" folks. The timeline still works. EVula 15:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

And one has to consider that Simon is probably not telling the whole truth to Malcom at first anyway. It's pretty clear that Simon doesn't trust Mal at all at the start and only to an extent later on. So it would be very much to his advantage to down play his role in the rescue and have Mal underestimate him if things went badly. The fact that he cold-bloodedly held Kaylee's life hostage when she was shot lends a certain weight to the idea that he's better at this than he lets on. - AM2783 9:30, 29 March 2006

Contents 1 Source 2 Problem solved 3 Removed text 4 Speculation 5 Early life 6 Minor phrasing dispute 7 Rescue Dealy Still Not Right

[edit] Source

About this part that needs citation:

Joss Whedon has commented on this, saying that for the movie he had to have Simon rescue River, for plot reasons, and saying that Simon was lying when he first told the crew about rescuing River (which is beleavable givin his character), and that he plans on addressing the issue at some point.

I know he said this at a con panel (I think Dragoncon), and that this panel was recorded and broadcast on an episode of FireFly Talk. Does anybody know what episode that was so that a source can be givin? JQF 16:52, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problem solved

I reworded the section on River's rescue. After studying Simon's dialogue in the series and the rescue scene in the film, the two seem to mesh with each other fine. The Wookieepedian 18:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed text

"However, a close examination of the series and the film reveals plot points that allow the explanation given in Firefly and the depiction in Serenity to mesh. The Firefly episode "Ariel" reveals that Simon seems to be quite familiar with infiltrating Alliance facilities as he does with the hospital in that episode. This would support the idea that his rescue of River was simply part of the plan that "his contacts" had. In the film Serenity, the Operative tells Dr. Mathias that Simon "spent a fortune on the contacts to infiltrate this place." Later on, Simon tells Mal and the crew that "the people who helped me break River out had intel that River and the other subjects were being imbedded with behavioral conditioning." Also, notice that the ship that picks up Simon and River in the beginning is not Serenity, but is a different ship. These things would support his explanation of River's rescue in the series."

I removed this section of the text because it seemed rather unnecessary. It seeks to explain what happened, which is good, yet it followed several paragraphs that already do the explaining, making it kind of redundant. Somebody could put it back in if they feel it's vital, but I'll leave that up to you. 67.85.165.48 00:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• I added that because I think it's important to explain the logistics of it plot-wise, because, although the article already gives an explanation, it doesn't explain it plot-wise. The Wookieepedian 01:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation

Not something I'd want to put in the article proper because it's speculation, but the concept of "blackout zones" is not new to Firefly. Currently in the United States, for example, there are certain areas in some municipalities where you can be fined for going at certain hours under certain conditions. For example, in areas where street racing is common (in some places) you can be fined for driving in that area late at night under the assumption that you're there for an illegal race. It can be presumed that the "blackout zones" are similar in nature, areas where a certain crime (or crime in general) is known to be prevalent and that travelling to these areas is an indicator of likely criminal activity.

[edit] Early life

incomplete sentence?

There are rumors that Simon began singing the National Anthem, and he either talked or paid his way out of the Alliance telling his father

huh? -plange 00:18, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor phrasing dispute

I just noticed an edit[1] by The Wookieepedian that was a revert of mine. This is an excessively minor issue, but I'm restoring my edit, and thought I should explain myself. :)

• From a factual standpoint, we don't actually know if that ship is piloted/owned/operated by "the men". It can be assumed, sure, but "a ship" works just as well, without any possible point of contention (regardless of the owner, it is a ship).

• Stylistically, the article says "the men" three times in fairly rapid succession. I realize this is all we have to go on, and can't call them anything else, but changing the third instance makes the article sound a bit better and a bit less repetitive.

Splitting hairs? You bet! But I still think it's an improvement (albeit a very, very minor one). EVula 22:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rescue Dealy Still Not Right

If this- "Joss Whedon has commented on this, saying that for the movie he had to have Simon rescue River, for plot reasons, and saying that Simon was lying when he first told the crew about rescuing River" is true, seeing as how this whole thing is Joss's baby, it should be taken as canon. That means that this bit:

"After learning about River's abuse at the Academy, he is unable to help her for two more years. However, Simon is eventually contacted by a group of men from an underground movement. They explain to him that the Alliance has been "playing with her brain." If funded, the men agreed to sneak River out via cryogenics. River would then be taken to Persephone, which is a planet slightly outside the Core, where Simon could take her wherever he wished.

Simon spends a large amount of money funding the men. As part of the plan, he manages to break into the Academy disguised as a uniformed official of the Alliance government and asks questions of Dr. Mathias about River’s treatment. Simon activates a hidden stun grenade and releases River. They then run to the window of an elevator shaft and break through, while a ship overhead releases a raft they then use to ride up to safety. This was all caught on the security cameras of the Academy (as seen in Serenity). From there, they head for Persephone."

needs to go. It was basically speculation in the first place, and since we're to believe that Simon was lying about how he got her out, there was no underground movement (which suits me just fine, because why the hell did we never hear of them again?) and there was no "part of the plan." The way Simon is shown rescuing River in the film is what we need to take and put into the page here in the "breakout" section. There's no reason to believe the ship they were going up to was anything other than whatever ship Simon docked into the Academy while impersonating one of them purplebellies. Simon does say he was taughted the safeword by the people that helped him break her out.. wish we had some idea who that was.

I'm not sure exactly how you folk want it rewritten, so I won't be bold in editing today, but I will mention that whatever language we do come up with needs to also be inserted into the River Tam article, which currently has a copy of the same text.

Thanks for listening, sports fans!--64.238.187.244 05:58, 6 January 2007 (UTC) Hawkian

Just another quick note: I've been seeking some closure on this because it had bugged me ever since I first saw Serenity, but (and I'm hoping this could be added to the controversy section) there really is no rectifying the fact that Simon learns a tooooon about what they're doing to River in that scene in the movie: that they mess with her mind when she's asleep, implant suggestions, that she would be "ideal for defense deployment," a "living weapon." Thoughout the series he is shown to have not even the slightest clue what the government wanted her for or what they did to her, and even after the events of "Ariel" still had no clue that they were trying to make her into a weapon, though if the movie is to be believed he already knew all of this. What a frustrating plot hole :( --64.238.187.244 06:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC) Hawkian