Talk:Silvio Berlusconi/Archive 2

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Contents

Analysing Wealth

Gianfranco, pretty all the sources I can find indicate Berlusconi is the wealthiest man in Italy, Consider this from the Forbes site: http://www.forbes.com/static_html/bill/2002/print/rank.html which puts him at 600 million more than the next Italian. In addition The Economist regularly refers to him as the richest Italian.

Dear Mark, Gianni Agnelli ("Mr. Fiat" - #180 in the list of the page you indicated), together with the members of his family, owns litterally thousands of companies that in turn own houses, cars, boats, helicopters, planes, shops, factories and really any other valuable good, all recorded as separate property of each company, in 5 Continents on 5; maybe then that Forbes cannot consider him the wealthiest man in Italy, because it records only official personal incomes the way they are declared to tax office. But I would wait a minute before considering he's poorer than our homo novus or than other folks there listed.
This kind of datum, the official declaration to tax office (this is a general rule), would not be a concrete indication in our country, since we are usually very... "shy" about our incomes ;-)))
So, my deep esteem for the two papers you mentioned remains unaltered, but I can tell you that I cannot assume those data as effectively describing italian positions on more than a "partial", perhaps formal aspect.
As a common practice, here we evaluate a patrimony upon the number of companies that belong to or are otherwise controlled by the main holder company, up to fourth grade and yes, we do this way because we know that our tax office will not be receiving the veritable truth about our money, but perhaps... a more pleasant interpretations of economical facts.
Moreover: the same tax administration uses similar indexes and effectively does not take into the least account what personally one declares. An alternative index is number of employees or involved workers. Fiat in Italy is a state within the state.
Mr. Del Vecchio, with only a dozen relevant companies, is indeed very high in that ranking, but it is quite difficult to consider that his groups is more important than Benetton's and that respective personal fortunes are not proportionally in a different sequence.
So, you'll have noticed that I didn't say who was the wealthiest one; I just said that Berlusconi is, for sure, one among them. Any italian could not proof it, but would immediately tell you. :-)))
BTW, the owner of one of most important european car factories, declared to tax office that he only owns 12 Fiat "Fiorino" pick-ups (see [1]) for the staff gardening in his villa. He says he has no other cars but 12 Fiorinos. Funny people these italian tycoons, one of these days I'll have to become one, I like pick-ups!
Seriously, I would perhaps keep the note on a more general tone, despite the not discussed prestige of sources. We are dealing with some data that are not enough "scientific" to describe a precise scheme the way we are used to read here.
Ciao --Gianfranco
I have changed the article a little to state this in terms of the source, i.e. forbes. You're right in that it's impossible to get an accurate net worth of these people. I'm sure all of these men you mention spend a considerable amount of time understating the value of these assets! I enjoyed reading your note! -- Dze27
On the other hand, there is no reason to believe that Berlusconi doesn't own assets and companies which are under his family members' names too. Vince In Milan 10:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that Berlusconi is far enough the richest man in Italy, at present. And any reasonable way of evaluating worth, would rank Berlusconi as the richest man in Italy (the number of employees is not a reasonable estimate of personal worth; this is due to the fact that one generally owns shares of companies that own shares of companies that own shares.........). Forbes is considered a good source of this kind of estimates, so I think it was a good idea to cite it.

It would be interesting to have a chart (or somethink similar) of Berlusconi's worth in the last years. In fact, this article is not precise about that, and looks like more biased than it is. Gala.martin 00:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Disappointing Page

By long custom, of course, I don't edit, but having recently returned from Italy, and eager to learn more about the country, I turned to this page to learn about Silvio Berlusconi, and I must confess that I found it most disappointing. I was neither a Berlusconi supporter or opponent before I read this piece, and I found myself most thoroughly unenlightened by the article in its present form.

There are a handful of essentials that one seeks to learn about any political leader, and this article does a terrible job on all of them except, as I say, on the legal irregularities of various kinds. I do not know, after reading the article, what Berlusconi's policies actually are. I do understand that he is more or less "center right", but this is too vague. I do not know, after reading the article, what his supporters (apparently a majority of Italians, if just barely, at the time of his election) might say about him. What do people like about him? What does he represent to them, what appeal did he have that his opponents did not?

Additionaly, some of the commentary is just transparently biased. "His government has presented a new legislation for a reform of the media, but this actually increased the percentage share that an individual was allowed to control..." I do not know the details of this legisluation, but notice the inherent presupposition that a reform would automatically involve ownership limits.

Notice that since I and many other people believe that the freedom of speech, including the freedom to publish newspapers to as many people who are willing to buy them, the freedom to broadcast television programs to as many people who will watch them, automatically implies that ownership limits are a grave human rights violation.

You need not agree with me on this. Your own view may be that freedom of speech is best guaranteed when people are not allowed to speak too much, or to too many people. Or that freedom of speech is best guaranteed when the government uses force to take money from some people to give it to others in order to promote points of view that would not have been voluntarily supported in the first place.

Wow, these are blatant strawmen. How about "freedom of speech is best guaranteed when having a thousand times as much money does not allow you to be a thousand times as loud"? DanielCristofani 09:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

But what is necessary, for NPOV, is that Wikipedia articles in themselves take neither political position at all. We need to both be able to read the article and understand the facts on the ground, without the implied and presupposed political analysis. Jimbo Wales 21:59, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I do think this article was a bit strange, dedicating about three quarters of it to completely unfounded conspiracy theories, and much of the rest to left-wing ranting. Then again, Wikipedia is heavily left-wing, so it can't really be avoided.
You obviously haven't spent a lot of time around Wikipedia. Saying Wikipedia's heavily left-wing is like saying French people hate America — not only untrue, but a gross oversimplification of a complex relationship. Wally 00:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Actually, reading Wikipedia is sort of like a hobby for me. I agree with the metaphor of French anti-Americanism, though: you can call it a gross oversimplification, but it's there, it's pretty obvious, and it's not going away. Anyway, this is way off topic already.

Disappointing - but extremely hard to write

In fact, one of the reasons that make this page rather uninformative is that any public statement about Mr. B. or his tenure appears to turn instantaneously in a partisan row. Avoiding this requires an amount of careful tiptoeing such as to eventually bowdlerize anything that can be said about the man. Please note that avoiding partisan clashes often requires the omission of very well known facts.

Point in case: the current version of the page states that no evidence exists linking Mr. B. to the removal of some well known journalists from national television. What it does not say, however, is that Mr B. very publicly stated that these journalists were biased and should have been taken off the air, and did - equally publicly - express his satisfaction when said removal did in fact happen. All this is factual and readily verifiable, but I have no doubt that would spark an outcry if it were to be inserted in the article.

Anther proof of the problems of this page is your statement:

" ...but notice the inherent presupposition that a reform would automatically involve ownership limits..."

Unless one is very informed on the italian situation he or she would be hard pressed to understand that:

o) Media reform in Italy for the last 10 years or so actually revolves around antitrust issues, because more than 90% of the airwaves ownership is split among state controlled media and the Mediaset group (controlled by Mr. Berluisconi and his family). Antitrust regulation *everywhere* involves ownership limits.

o) Because of the very special position of Mr. B. - who is at the same time owner of the major private media group, and prime minister with a huge saying on what goes on at state television level - the issue also touches heavily on what is called "his conflict of interests", which - by general consensus - has no equals in contemporary western democracies.

o) The law itself comes on the heels of a number of court orders (including one from Italy's supreme court) that mandate one of Mr. Berlusconi's televisions to become a satellite broadcast and awards its current frequencies to another (private) television which - according to the courts - should have won that same frequency from the beginning. The law that the government proposed very conveniently overrides all these court orders, keeps the threatened television on the air, all the while not redressing the original plaintiff.

You see the problem here: all the circumstances I stated above are factual enough and would require very scant commentary, at least from my perspective. A lot of Italians though, will feel that what above is partisan for failing to state some mitigating circumstance - for instance, that the law mentions future expansions of the media offering that would dilute and change the current situation.

This is a totally insane situation that removes any chance of being perceived unbiased and informative about the whole issue (reason for which I refrain to edit)

But a differing point of view is that this article,taken together with its commentary, is in fact extremely informative on the state - and quality - of the Italian discourse about Mr. Berlusconi, for which I feel the man - never shy about being a divisive character - bears a good share of resposibility.

Alessandro

Different ways of dealing

In my opinion the biography of an influent political man inside an Encyclopaedia CAN, and, more then that, MUST, quote also judicial proceedings the politician is subjected to, provided that they are given the appropriate weight in the general context of the article.

In this case the whole Berlusconi's career seems to pivot just around trials and allegations, thus painting the article with an an unmistakable partisan color.

Please look the different way this issue is handled in articles concerning other politicians who had minor or major judicial involvments too (in Italy a could quote Giulio Andreotti, but you have only the embarassment of choosing all around the world).

As a matter of fact the debate around the balance between political and judicial powers is a critical (and very important) issue in the modern democracies, and the issue of the conflict of interests is important as well.

Very often these issues are used as political 'weapons of mass destruction' in political contests: this is perfectly legitimate (in my opinion) but an article of an Encyclopaedia doesn't seem to me the most appropriate place for them.

As far as it concerns the Berlusconi-the-man personal character I think that, beeing italian voters more than 18 years old, they're able to develop an opinion without beeing plagiarized by some TV-spots.

My personal idea is that Mr.Berlusconi has a fighting and rash character, with the indisputable merit of beeing able to let himself understood by his audience: this is not little in a country where politicians usually speek using an alien language.

By the way: I'm not 'berlusconian'.

Marius 13:31, 19 Jul 2004

This is a problem of language. Too much italians are just political supporters, they support parties as they were football teams. You say '...understood by his audience' ? Tell us the profile of the majority of this people! Aren't those the same people that run in a trip when they are told that somewhere in Italy (or abroad) a statue of the Holly Mother lacrimates blood? Aren't those the same people that give millions (of old lira, 1E=2000L) to the magicians for having better life, find love, win the national lottery etc. In Italy we say 'qualunquismo' o 'relativismo assoluto', so many different commanders in the history, that italians think - could not be worser -, but times have changed and people begin to understand that isn't the same, in spite of growing stupidity in the national media. If somebody does not write a good page about -Italian mentality-, many people cannot understand this page. The role of the Vatican in Italy too. The directive of the church whom to vote (for those prayers that always vote those indicated by the church). As for the balance political-judicial, you cannot debate over the balance with a man & company charged and already condemned.

my friend, let me say something (no flames please :-)
  • not all our italian fellow citizen are so deeply learned, intelligent, high-profiled as you probably are, (or you believe you are), but imho it's not a reason why claiming they're stupid children unable to understand politics.
  • I don't believe to Holy Mother's lacrimations too, but I respect people who believe them. Democracy is also to respect your neighbour's ideas even if (let me say particularly if) they're different. In dictatorships the problem doesn't exist as everyone think the same way, and all Saints, Holy Mothers, Magicians, Lotteries and other stupid stuff like these is banned by law.
  • if you want to write a wiki page about italic temper, do it, just be carefull to keep NPOV, as we are an encyclopedia, not a political forum.
  • semantic issue: when I wrote I'm not berlusconian I meant I don't vote Forza Italia (the Berlusconi's party, for non italian politics aware Wikipedians). I don't vote at all since 20 years and I think I'm not partisan. You can be partisan, but you can't use wikipedia for deploying your beliefs.
  • if you're interested in contributing to the new article of Silvio Berlusconi on it.wiki, jump here and partecipate to the discussion. All contributes are welcome, and in the discussion pages you are not compelled to be NPOV, of course. Bye. Marius @ post 06:56, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think you have profoundly misunderstood. The anomympus editor who posted that comment was not suggetsing that ALL Italian are idiotic, superstious, and empty-headed sheep, but only that Berlusoni supporters are idiotic, superstitious, authoritaian and empty-headed sheep. Now put the remarks in context please: my friend above is only a private citizen referring to a certain (admittedly very large) part of the Italian population. Berlusoconi, who is the PRIME MINISTER of the F**** Nation referred to all of those who do not vote for him as "coglioni!!" As the Guardian correctly represented this expression in English, he called them dickheads. Coglioni literally means "balls" of course. But that does not come close to accurately portraying the extreme vulgarity, arrogance and offensiveness that Berlusoni intended to convey with this expression. "Dickheads" is about right. Why isn't this represneted in the article? It's extremely POV to leave it out, I should think.

Imagine if Geoger W. Bush or John Kerry called his opponent's supporrtes a bunch of "losers" or even "idiots" and the reaction that would have followed from that. He would have dropped yto abut 2% of the vote. Also, one of Berlu's major acheivements is not mentioned: he changed the electoral law three months before the election!! Imagine if,in the US ot UK, the majprity governement decided to rewrrite the Costituotion three months before the election so as to esnsure that they would have a grrater chance for victory. Sickening!! And what about the famous "Kapò" statement with recpet to the German foreign minister. Are you going to whitewash that as well. I don't have time to get to all the ad personam laws which are not mentioned here but occupied about the first three years of his regime.--Lacatosias 09:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


Get your facts straight - his infamous "Kapò" statement was not directed at the German foreign minister, but rather at a german member of the European Parliament, Schulz. It came after Schulz had been attacking him for about 15 min aboout italian legislation instead of focusing on european issues...

Vandalism and propaganda

To protect the article from frequents attacks I propose to allow editing only to Wiki administrators and move proposals of modifications to this discussion page (like italian version)
W.R.


I don't see the vandalism. Current picture is a recent (2004-08-15) picture of Silvio Berlusconi, taken in a public place and with Berlusconi's permission. Surely better than a 15 year old picture that was more opera of photoshop than of a camera. Not so different from this picture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Bushaircraft.jpg used in Bush article.

G.P.


I leave to Wikipedia responsibles the judgment whether your real goal in editing is information or propaganda. Only notice that all targets of your attentions are right-wing politicians. I think you're abusing the ospitality of a respected web site to make propaganda.
W.R.

targets? this is paranoia, I just reverted to the picture someone inserted tuesday.

G.P.

This is a small, good test to check if the majority of Wikipedians want that Wikipedia remains an independent source of culture or changes into a stage for leftist ideologists.

I do want independent articles. But pretending that there should not be leftist majority here is a nonsense. This is free stuff, and free is usually promoted and done by altruists. Don't tell me that the rightists like not paid work :)) Not saying there're not rightists, just less. And stop this flames, otherwise italians risk to be banned from wikipedia too (like in many irc channels).

M.P.


W.R.

he was right, this is paranoia. did you ever consider calling a good physician?
Francesco S.
W.R. you call test all in your own? The only way to keep wikipedia indipendent is discussing and contributing. Make your point and try to convince others instead of invoking special measures when not required.
Also in my opinion the locking of the page in the italian wiki is a defeat, and, as I argued there, i strongly oppose going that way unless there's a really unmanageable situation. Worths noting that english version is by far more balanced and informative. --Balubino 17:21, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)
100% right, Balubino. But watch the page history: sometime it seemed unmanageable and frustrating. I'm glad I was wrong. Bye.

Satirical edits

Yesterday Mr.Berlusconi's portrait has been replaced by a photo of himself and Mrs. Cherie Blair during a summer party.
Ok, political satire is always welcome in democracy, but what has that got to do with an Encyclopaedia?
Personally I like funny-dressed politicians more than thieving and/or tiresome ones anyway. Marius 06:57, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Trials added

In the "Legal investigations" section I added data on trials completed and in progress. I think the legal terms are correct but I would like a confirmation by some english user law-aware :) Kormoran 22:09, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)


what about adding the latest senteces?
I mean the process for financial fraud which ended because that kind of fraud was no more a crime becouse of a law that the same B asked; and another prescription too...

Paskal007r 12:58, 8 oct 2005

Micro POV removal

I removed this

"in a public management style reminiscent of a private entrepreneur"

I tried rewriting it as

"in a style which XXXX described as being reminiscent of a private entrepreneur"

but I couldn't find any XXXX. Could someone please provide a link. I think several descriptions of his style of legislative action have been made.

Hi Azikala.
imo you did a great job as the article is now by far better and more NPOV than it was some time ago. I agree to remove NPOV warning, even if, here and there, the anti-B taste re-surfaces. I'm not interested in triggering flames or edit-wars between italians (we've enough on it.wiki!) as I'm not B.'s lawyer and furthermore I see the faults of the guy too. It's evident he pays the scot to be rich, influencial, conservative, and, above all, in office. By sure, when he'll be out, (I guess very soon) all this attention he's subjected to, will fade out. But that's it: it's democracy. A biography is very encyclopedic when the personage is much known, no matter about his real historical relevance. About the micro-POV: you could write:
in a style which his supporters described as being reminiscent of a private entrepreneur
By the way: B's opponents too agree he has a private entrepreneur style, but, ironically, they use this very argument to criticize him  :-) Bye. Marius @ 09:36, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Strange language

In the section Trials the word "prescripted" is used; it doesn't seem to mean what the person thought it meant. What is the meaning which is wanted here?

It is probably because of the similarity with the Italian prescrizione. The concept is reaching statutory time limits. This is a technical term which I don't really know how to translate exactly; if you have an Italian-English legalese dictionary at hand, the word is prescritto. AFAIK it might even be different between UK and US English, who knows. Berlusconi has long been accused (fairly, if you ask me) of pursuing delaying tactics and passing laws in order to get his trials ended this way, instead of proving his innocence.
Orzetto 14:03, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Good; that's what I thought. I've been changing it to "the statute of limitations expired" since that's more or less a clear english phrase. There's an english word prescribed, but that has a different meaning. I've also been changing other stuff in the case list. It would really help if people who were translating from Italian would ask about words they aren't sure of. Please could people who know this stuff (or is good at Google :-) help check each case in turn. For example:
  • "false in budget" sounds like it means "false accounting" but I can't be sure?
  • "with formulation of doubt" sounds like "not proven", does that verdict exist in the Italian legal system?
  • "paid offhand" sounds like "paid under the table" or "paid secretly"?
are these right?? Azikala 09:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Remaining POV

I am now going to remove the POV notice. There are still some minor issues but not, I think, sufficient to justify a POV notice.

  • reform - this word is inherently positive and many of Berlusconi's pension changes have been matters of dispute in Italy. Please aim to use either proper names Berlusconi's Sheep Trading Reform or attributed links or more neutral terms.

Freedom of the Press 2004 Global Survey

I don't think that Freedom of the Press can be quoted as authoritative on an Encyclopedia. Italy is a fully democratic country also in the press and media. If someone think different he has to give the evidence of his own Point Of View (=POV), just a quote of a minor survey institute is not factual enough. Re to Adhib's comment in the Page History: I'm not a Mussolini's fan: keep NPOV please. You wrote I'm lacking substantiation I say that Freedom of the Press is lacking substantiation. W

I'm removing the statement "It's should be noted, however, that Freedom of the Press 2004 Global Survey is a disputed source as well."; The reason I do this is that this simply states a view about this organisation without saying who disputes the survey. The statement that it covered was not POV, it was a referenced fact; Freedom House did state what they stated. Rather than simply stating that this is "disputed", we need a statement of who disputes Freedom Houses claim, or who makes a different claim and what that claim is. . More importantly, there is nothing on the Freedom house entry to suggest that it would be biased against Berlusconi. Rather, it seems to be a right wing CIA backed organisation rather likely to support Berlusconi (as an American ally). Before we criticise it's report, we should gather more evidence about the organisation on its own page.

My opinion is that the user who added the paragraph about Freedom of the Press 2004 Global Survey should provide more information about the reason of the downrating of Italy: newspapers owned, control of the TV networks, shares and so on. If one read the article about Berlusconi all these matters are already dealt with, without reaching to the same conclusions of this survey institute. If one believes that FP2004 is more authoritative than Wikipedia then we'd remove the whole section about Media ownership and just put a link to Freedom of Press website with the comment:
if you want to learn about the italian situation of media, please click here
Regards. Marius @ 04:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

P.S.=I suggest an arrangment: to remove from the article the reference to FP2004 and add it to the External links section. @ 04:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I personally feel that the meaning of the two suggestions is the opposite of what you seem to feel. When we put a link in the see also section then we are recommending it (here is a good thing to see). That would suggest we agree with Freedom House. If, on the other hand, we just put the plain statement that "Freedom House said XXX" then people can decide for themselves based on their view of freedom house. Finally, if we could put some specific reasons why someone in particular doubts freedom house that would be valuable. The main accusation against Freedom House seems to be that they are CIA backed. Also American/CIA allegiance is seen by many as a problem with Berlusconi. Normally it would seem Freedom House should support Berlusconi and their accusations against him become more striking.
taken overall; if we want to show other views than that of Freedom House then we need some examples of independent external sources which say that Italy's media is free and explanations of why they say so. Azikala 14:59, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi, thank-you for your reply. I don't care whether FP2004 is backed by CIA or KGB, just I don't see the need to quote it within the article as an authoritative source. My goal is to make the article more NPOV and also to defend the reputation of my Country, Italy. I'm not interested at all in making the article pro-Berlusconi or anti-B. In the article the situation of italian media is, imho, explained deeply enough, so I don't see the need to back the article with external opinions of some survey institute. If some contributor think that in Italy we've not freedom of press, then he, or she, should substantiate his opinion by quoting facts not opinions. You can back any kind of opinion by quoting some particular source, if you search for an appropriate source, the world is large enough, but this is not the wiki NPOV style. My suggestions are just compromise proposals in an attempt to prevent edit wars, given that the best solution, imho again, should be to remove the whole reference to FP2004.
As an end of my post: I find it very odd that you think that some evidence should be produced to demonstrate that in Italy there is freedom of press. Normally one is innocent until it's proven he's guilty, not the contrary! Did you read carefully the article about the control commissions on italian TV networks? Do you know that the two italian largest printed dailies (La Repubblica and Il Corriere della Sera) are more or less anti-B or anti-Government coalition biased? Why don't you look for the the same evidence for other countries? On which basis? On the base FP2004's ratings? Very singular indeed (imho for the third time). Sorry for my being too animate, bye. Marius @ 18:52, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Nothing to be sorry about; as long as we're happy to discuss on the talk page before making a mess of the article then we can probably do a pretty good job together. The most important policy here, it seems to me, is not WP:NPOV, but rather Wikipedia:No original research. As we try to improve this article we should attempt to provide sources for each section and covering different viewpoints. In this case, Freedom House is, even if we want to claim it's biased, the best source we have for the section so far. We shouldn't remove it; instead we should provide other different sources until we can achieve a reasonable balance. Now, your statement, that the daily newspapers are anti-B biased should be something for which we can easily find a source to supoport. However, newspapers are not so important in Italy compared to most other european countries[2] so I don't think that, in its self it's enough to completely discredit Freedom Houses claims.
The WP:NPOV does mean that we have to "write for the enemy". In this case, your "enemy" is Freedom House. Since they are a well known organisation which gives this opinion we should mention and say what they think. If we have a disagreement with them, then simply missing them out will only show that we are ignorant; showing a counter point will make it clear to people where they might be wrong and why they might have chosen to be wrong. In fact the person who put this in was doing a fairly good job of following the fundamental NPOV principle: Where we might want to state opinions, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. We can complete their job, not by deleting, but by also giving other views and sources.
My guess about what annoys you about this, though, is not the statement, but rather the fact that it's at the end of the paragraph as if it were a conclusion. I'd suggest that reordering might be needed. If this put in one of the first paragraphs of the section, it will probably make a better introduction and then followed by the facts as we can find them and/or other points of view.
I've just gone looking for an organisation which might be considered more neutral. A good example would be Reporters Without Borders. They have an Italy report here http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=10148&Valider=OK which seems to me to be a better source. What do you think of this?
Azikala 19:13, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'm now logged from a public access point with little time left to reply. Tnx again for the attention you give to the matter. I need more time to examine the sources you've quoted. In the meantime just a couple of considerations:

  1. For an italian who thinks independently and knows from inside the real situation of italian media and democracy is really frustrating and disturbing to be mentioned as a citizen of a country in which human rights are not granted.
  2. Also among B's hardest opponents there are many who shouldn't agree with FP2004 ratings (I hope that they will post some comments here)
  3. It's true that in Italy newspapers are less influent than elsewhere, but I think you underestimate the two dailies I mentioned, as they have a very strong tradition and a large diffusion and furthermore they're owned and backed by very influent and mighty subjects, who also control some TV networks.
  4. I believe that the FP2004 statements should be backed by the figures its rating is based on: channels, shares, controls and so on, otherwise it must be accepted as a kind of oracle, and this is not right, imho, even if this survey institute has a good reputation.

I'll post other comments when I'm back in Italy (hoping to receive other comments as well). Regards. Marius 16:46, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to have caused such a commotion with this Freedom House nugget (and apologies to W for my Mussolini jibe - I jumped to the conclusion after noticing that Il Duce's was the only other page his anon IP had edited). I think the compromise now reached works very well. The Freedom House survey - like all such evaluations - must take into account both quantitative and qualitative information to come to a sensible view. The qualitative aspect should not be enough to dismiss it (though it certainly opens up the potential for criticism). What would be required to substantiate W's desire to cast doubt on FH2004 would be (a) a quote or referenced article in which FH2004's evaluation of Italy is disputed, (b) proof (or plausible hearsay) that the Freedom House evaluation criteria have been applied in a prejudicial manner in the case of Italy, or (c) evidence that the Freedom House survey process is flawed, routinely causing nations with vibrant, free media sectors to be ranked as 2nd class. None of these substantiations was forthcoming. We are left with the impression that W is in fact the source of the alleged dispute, and that his objection is motivated primarily by faith in his country. I can respect that, but would encourage him to dig deeper. Adhib 17:09, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

External links

What was the point behind this link? The slashdot article barely mentions Berlusconi and there is no text about P2P in our text. It just doesn't seem relevant. I removed it.

Azikala

Disputed

I'm going to give this section on the Legal investigations of Berlusconi a month to be improved, then if no sources can be given I'm removing the disputed passages. - Ta bu shi da yu 01:51, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Many crimes

He has been accused for many crimes related to his firms (Mediaset, Fininvest): he was accused of many cases of false accounting, tax fraud, bribery and corruption but the conviction yielded no actual prison sentences, as the trials took so long that they were closed because of the statute of limitations. A number of trials are still running, however.

  • Who says this?
  • What is the source?
  • What trials are still running?

Berlusconi's character and past

Many suspects on his person are risen by his enduring refuse to explain his past: apparently, his empire was founded and developed with money (about 250 millions Euro) coming from nowhere and he never ever explained anything about where that money came from. More, he was part in the last 1970 decade and first '80 years of the freemason lodge "Propaganda 2", a large subversive association aiming to take control over the Italian government. More, in his very home of Arcore, Berlusconi had employed for two years, as stableman, the mafia boss Vittorio Mangano.

  • "Apparently" his empire was founded from money coming from "nowhere"? That doesn't make any sense! How can that money come from nowhere? Is this implying that he founded his empire on money that he never disclosed his source? If so, what's the big deal here? If I founded an empire, would I wouldn't necessarily disclose the source of my initial capital, and I'd never gather if from illegal sources. This could be quite innocent.
  • "More, he was part in the last 1970 decade and first '80 years of the freemason lodge "Propaganda 2", a large subversive association aiming to take control over the Italian government." Source? Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
He actually got convicted in 1990 by the Venice "Corte d'Appello", with the accuse of "False Witness" about this. He said to the judges that he was not involved in the P2, but it was proven otherwise. It's not a theory, it's history.
P2 is part of Italian history. You can find a lot about that in any history book about Italy, or in wikipedia itself. And it is sure Berlusconi was affiliated with P2 (you can also find a pictures of his card on www.berlusconisilvio.it ). Some politicians of Berlusconi's party were affiliated with P2 as well. Gala.martin 14:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
  • "More, in his very home of Arcore, Berlusconi had employed for two years, as stableman, the mafia boss Vittorio Mangano." - firstly, was this illegal? Secondly, where is the source for this information?
It is illegal as far as Berlusconi knew Mangano was affiliated with Mafia. I do not know the source of the author, but you can find a lot of material about that from "Procura di Caltanissetta". Gala.martin 14:55, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Italian history 1946-1990 is extremely complicated, the full truth on a number of events is not known yet, and the borders between historical facts and "conspiracy theories" are often very blurred. However, the existance of the P2 lodge and Berlusconi's affiliation to it are proven and undisputed facts, though judgement may vary on the degree of "eversiveness" of such an association. Overall I tried my best to clarify and reference this section.

Mani Pulite affair

During the Mani Pulite affair, many top level executive in Mediaset and Berlusconi's very brother, Paolo, were charged and condemned for tens and even hundreds of accusations of bribery, false accounting, tax fraud and so on: this could be seen as a shield to relieve him from any responsibility, since it would be very odd that a CEO really ignores anything about what is happening within his firms.

  • Sources please.
  • Why do we have speculation in here? This can only be added if provide a source of the speculation!

Offshore slush funds

Judicial and customs investigators claim to have uncovered large offshore slush funds controlled by Berlusconi and his companies which were expected to lead prosecutions for financial and tax evasion offences. So far he has avoided prosecution, in part as a result of legislation his government majority has introduced such as de-criminalising "false" accounting and making it more difficult to obtain legal documents from overseas. Documentation from the Swiss government which Italian judges required for a corruption trial were only handed over after Italy agreed not to use them to prosecute Berlusconi for the Tax evasion offences they were accused of.

  • Sources please!

Pls, NO edit wars

The latest edits demonstrate that in such a sensible article any substantial edit should be filtered through the present discussion page. Otherwise the usual game of:
seen from right side
vs
seen from left side
will start again, and the POV warning should be restored. Marius @ 09:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I (81.208.74.180 is me, I sometimes forget to log in) reverted the changes made by 62.101.126.224 because the vast majority of them were POV without a source given. It would be acceptable to write "Berlusconi claims that a vast majiority of the press is center left controlled" but not "It's true that a vast majority of the press is center left controlled". And so on for other similar statements. Regarding the claim that RAI is, even _now_, centre left controlled, I find it hilarious. However, a statement such as "Traditionally, however, in Italy the state television has always been more or less controlled or influenced by the parties who held the majority at a given time" would be acceptable and would be a mitigating circumstance of the influence now exerted by the centre-right over RAI.
I have no objection on the insertion of positive characteristics of Berlusconi as seen from his supporters. Infact I am going to more or less restore that part, which I at first did not notice when I reverted. Massimamanno
Do you think that a statement like:
A general disregard for democratic rules and a tendency towards authoritarianism.
is NPOV, without backing it with some real substantiation? That is acceptable for all italian voters, even if quoted as an opinion of some B's opponents? Pls note that one couldn't write:
some people think that B. is the worst criminal mind of either XX and XXI century
even if some B's political opponents, probably, believe that.
No question that in wiki edits are free, but, IMO, an article with such a long and complicated history should be dealt with by using some more discretion, to avoid useless disputations. I insist that some previous discussion here is highly appropriate. Edit wars are anti-wiki stuff. Marius @ 17:22, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
the original person who edited, wrote this sentence in place of what I wrote: "Being not much democratic and too much authoritative". Now, maybe I enforced the concept too much, however it is clearly stated that this is claimed by his opponents and critics. That part is meant to give the "2 sides" of how berlusconi is seen, in brief. I would not say that berlusconi has very innovative ideas at all, but that's what is stated in the positive comments made by his supporters. However, what would you propose in place of that sentence?
IMO B's administration, democratically elected, fully complies with democratic rules and with the Italian Constitution. On the other hand, the position of B as chief of his own party (Forza Italia) may be considered authoritarian. So the statement could be changed into:
An excessive centralization of Forza Italia, the party founded by Berlusconi
Marius @ 21:50, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This is undoubtedly one aspect. But it must be noted that at least some of his opponents argue that there is something of more profoundly undemocratic in berlusconi's attitude, notably, among others, the Italian poet laureate and lifelong senator Mario Luzi [3]. Would you accept a statement on the general lines that "the moderate side of his opponents note an excessive centralization in Forza Italia" while "some of the more radical ones go as far as suggesting that Berlusconi may lead Italy to some "soft" kind of regime"? The above statements are not very good as a matter of language in the first place, but would you accept the general idea? Massimamanno

This talk can't be a dialog between Massimamanno and me only, and, therefore, I hope that some other user will express his own opinion. I'd just like to fix once again, that wiki is not a forum to deploy political propaganda, not even in a soft style, as, imho, is the style of Massimamanno, whose ideas I respect 100%, but I invite him not to use wikipedia to promote them. We've had the same problem on it.wiki, where we're now editing a draft copy, and its relevant talk page, before validating edits to the article. If Massimamanno is an italian-speaking user, then I invite him to visit this page, and, preferably, to use here, if not the same method, at least the same approach. In the meantime I'll restore the POV warning. Marius @ 05:20, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Mh, I have started editing mostly because there was an 1 month alert to reference parts of the article that were basically correct and valuable for the most part, or they would have been deleted. I think I referenced them, or corrected them when false. Of course I have political views; I try my best to be neutral but it's clear that they may at times "sneak" into what I write. In such cases I'm happy to be corrected, and I think that's the way an article about politics should be written, as a dialectic process between supporters of both views, all of them trying their best to achieve neutrality. Otherwise the only persons who could write about politics are persons with no definite political views.
About the italian article, I've seen it, and seems to me very poor. Restricting access to a wiki page is, in my opinion, an inherent contraddiction and an admission to defeat.
About the POV alert you introduced: what specifically would you like to be changed? What are the POV points you see? I think it would be fair from your part to give a chance to ponder your objections, since you introduced the alert.

reorganization, refactoring

I have taken the liberty of reorganizing this article; I felt it was getting unwieldy. For one thing, I have tried to consolidate the information about his business undertakings in one section and that concerning his political career in another. (IMO, the business section is pretty anemic and could use some additional material).

Also, seeing that they were making the article overly long (>32Kb) and cumbersome, I have moved "Legal investigations of Berlusconi" and its subsections on Trials and so into a temporary sub-document:

/Berlusconi and the law

At the top of this section was an inline comment from someone:

This section contains controversial paragraphs which are not backed up with sources. The section needs to be updated with links and references or corrected before it can be seen to meet Wikipedia's standards.

I agree, and furthermore propose that if this information is to be reintroduced into the encyclopedia it be done so in a separate article, ie "Silvio Berlusconi and the law" or whatever.

Finally, I have taken the liberty of commenting out the NPOV tag, but if anyone feels strongly that the article is still biased, they are welcome to uncomment it. -- Viajero 17:17, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Too much liberty. Some of your proposals I am willing to discuss but take into account that 1) George W. Bush's page is, for example, 72Kb long and 2) discussion about berlusconi's reaction to legal issues, and legislative action connected or perceived as connected with them has dominated the political debate in Italy in the past 3 years, so something must be said about it in the main article.
I agree, however, that this article needs some reorganization and I am willing to discuss proposals
the "disputed" tag has been set by an admin (Ta bu Shi Da Yu) who should come back one of these days to say something about the issue. If he does not, the tag will possibly be removed.
the "POV" tag is currently being discussed.
Ok, I merged some of my edits back into the earlier version with the Legal section, but I would still suggest that it might be useful to spin this off into a separate article, with a course a brief overview of the issues in the main text. As it now stands, it is a very dense looking section and all of those warnings make it look worse. Couldn't we take that section offline for awhile and work on it in the Talk space? There is precedent for proceeding this way. Wikipedia articles are by definintion works in progress, but when too much of the scaffolding is visible that isn't good. -- Viajero 23:06, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)
If nothing is said about his trials and related issues in the main article people will flock and add something every other day. I would work on it while it is there. As for remoing the warnings, I mostly referenced the section and was waiting for the admin's approval but I think there should be no more factual accuracy disputes, maybe POV issues which I am not aware of, so the disputed label could be removed, I was just waiting some more.
While I do not completely agree with your reorganization, I will tentatively leave it in place since it appears to have some merit, especially in the division between business and political career
"Media ownership" is a big issue, it earned some pronunciations from the european council and debates in the european parliament and I am unsure if it fits in the general class of "berlusconi and controversy" which mostly was meant to deal with the gaffes and minor diplomatical incidents mostly caused (imo) by inexperience in international diplomacy, and contained some points of appreciation/criticism on berlusconi related to personality matters. If it is left there, should be moved to the first part of the paragraph since it is the major international source of controversy on Berlusconi, while the "strange remarks" he sometimes makes, however they may be fit for the media attention, are not generally seen as a so big issue.
in the last paragraph, controversy about Berlusconi's personality is understated. Overall, I still think that paragraph fits best in "berlusconi and controversy" but will take somet time to think about it before editing. -- Massimamanno

reply to Massimamanno

Massimamanno wrote:

If nothing is said about his trials and related issues in the main article people will flock and add something every other day. I would work on it while it is there. As for remoing the warnings, I mostly referenced the section and was waiting for the admin's approval but I think there should be no more factual accuracy disputes, maybe POV issues which I am not aware of, so the disputed label could be removed, I was just waiting some more.

If people see a link to a second article, even if it is a work-in-progress in the Talk space, they will be less likely to add information to the main article. As for "waiting for an admin", this isn't necessary; wikipedia doesn't work that way. I am also an admin, but neither I nor any other admin has any particular authority about article content (what we do have are certain tools to help resolve disputes). However, I do feel strongly that controversial material should either referenced or moved out of the article until such things are resolved. These warnings look very bad.

I am unsure if you understood what I said, or this article's history. The section on legal investigations needed to be referenced. Now it has been. Before removing the warning, though, I was waiting for the consensus of the person who added the warning. Who, also, happened to be an admin. But, first and foremost, it was a matter of courtesy and, sort of, democracy. Now I am removing the warning.
While I do not completely agree with your reorganization, I will tentatively leave it in place since it appears to have some merit, especially in the division between business and political career

Ok, but I want you to understand what I am trying to do. Over and over again on Wikipedia, these big, important articles to which many people contribute end up looking like ragged quilts, with bits and pieces of information ("factoids") inserted in an almost random way throughout the text. In addition to supplying various kinds of information, an encyclopedia article, IMO, should also have a well-organized narrative with a certain structural unity. One way to do this is to break into down into topical sections; another is to rewrite the material from scratch as an organic whole, but this takes consumate skill as a editor. What I found yesterday was an article that -- in one way or another -- needed extensive organization.

I disagree with your method of working, but, given the way wikipedia works, I have no choice but to accept, revert or edit what you write. Being a very controversial article, the one on Berlusconi must in my opinion reach an acceptable equilibrium state in content, before being tweaked in form and shape. This is the same way the articles on other controversal leaders are being worked, and suggestion to break the article are being rejected until there is consensus on what is to be written and what not in the first place, and what is to be kept in the main article and what not in the second place. G.W.Bush is 72 Kb, Bill Clinton is 49 Kb, Tony Blair is 46 Kb, etc. Berlusconi is a media mogul AND a twice prime minister of Italy, and the page is not too long. In the end, maybe, the list of his trials may have to be moved, but not, is my firm opinion, the disussion of them and related issues.

As for the legal section, it just seems rather dense and reader-unfriendly. An encylopedia article on a complicated issue should, IMO, first and foremost offer a good overview of the subject and not necessarily strive to be a comprehensive repository, ie, not offer "too much" information (although listings also have their place). IOW, we should distill the legal section to a couple of paragraphs, with salient examples, and move the rest, especially that list, to an ancilliary article for people who want more. This would be a "reader-friendly" approach.

I disagree
"Media ownership" is a big issue, it earned some pronunciations from the european council and debates in the european parliament and I am unsure if it fits in the general class of "berlusconi and controversy" which mostly was meant to deal with the gaffes and minor diplomatical incidents mostly caused (imo) by inexperience in international diplomacy, and contained some points of appreciation/criticism on berlusconi related to personality matters. If it is left there, should be moved to the first part of the paragraph since it is the major international source of controversy on Berlusconi, while the "strange remarks" he sometimes makes, however they may be fit for the media attention, are not generally seen as a so big issue.

I see your point. A separate section on Media ownership might also be appropriate.

in the last paragraph, controversy about Berlusconi's personality is understated. Overall, I still think that paragraph fits best in "berlusconi and controversy" but will take somet time to think about it before editing.

I am not sure what you mean by here "understated. Too little information? In any case, some of the material could go elsewhere, but factoids like his facelift need to given a suitable home or left out. -- Viajero 13:20, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It was mildly stated already (the part on controversy about him centralizing power, not his facelift and hair implant) looking for a difficult compromise. There was an ongoing discussion on that sentence and you further understated it without bothering to look at the discussion. That may be the way you work on all of your edits. Sure that way you can gather many edits to show on your personal page but do not expect them to last long, or have a positive effect.


Massimamanno: For someone who has made like twenty edits in the main article space, all of them in this article, you speak with impressive authority about "how things are done here"; I don't have your self-assurance about such matters even after contributing for more than a year. You may know a great deal about Berlusconi and you may be Italian, but neither of those factors makes you the final arbiter of what this article should look like. As I am sure you realize, this article needs work. It is missing information in some places; in other places, the existing material needs to be presented in a better way. If you don't fix these things, others will. Just because the GW Bush article has bloated to 72Kb does not mean clarity and concision should be sacrificed here. Wikipedia is not a dumpster.

You wrote above:

I disagree with your method of working, but, given the way wikipedia works, I have no choice but to accept, revert or edit what you write.

Yep, that the way things work here. Welcome to Wikipedia. -- Viajero 15:17, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Welcome to this article. If you wish so you can find basic information (in english) on what should be said on controversies about Berlusconi in the documentary movie "Citizen Berlusconi" aired in the USA by PBS and broadcast in all Europe, except Italy.
I never said (or thought) I'd be the final arbiter on anything. Actually, it's you who popped up and thought you'd change everything, while obviously knowing little about the subject, just relying on supposedly superior editing skills. Now, let me bring serious matters back on top in this discussion page.

POV issues

Since there is no real POV discussion, but still the article is disputed, I am going to change the short POV to long POV, the one saying "please help by report possibly non-neutral passages". Since the issue has been raised, however, I have a point on a possible right-side POV which I would like to be addressed:

  • In the meantime the competition between his own company Mediaset and RAI has become more intense with both groups trying hard to increase their own market share.

Source? I could not find any. It seems to me very hard to prove this statement, or for that matter its contrary, which would be

  • In the meantime the competition between his own company Mediaset and RAI has decreased and both groups seem to have agreed to some kind of division of their market shares.

My personal impression, which is of course worth nothing, is more inclined towards the second statement. However, in the absence of any sources, wouldn't it be safe to say nothing about the issue, and just assume that the level of competition between RAI and Mediaset hasn't increased or decreased? If someone feels that, even if no sources can be found, something must be said about the issue, what about a statement like

  • There are no signs of a decrease in competition for market shares between Mediaset and RAI (since Berlusconi went in charge).

Any thoughts or sources?


A source which could be used to support the view of a decrease in Mediaset-Rai competition is an Italian Antitrust report (in Italian, of course). It's actually an "indagine conoscitiva", but I really don't know how to translate it so I called it a "report". ;)
Anyway, currently I believe that the article's bias (or perceived bias) originates from the selection of "facts" rather than the way tehy're actually portrayed. A different selection of facts (and a different selection of omissions) could have a very different result. For example, the whole article revolves around his career as a politician and not around his career as a businessman (or, for what matters, a soccer team owner - I'm joking), and some traits of Berlusconi's personality are usually considered inappropriate for a politician but indifferent (or even appropriate) for a businessman.
By the way, Berlusconi did not found Italia 1 and Rete 4 as the article apparently implies (I think they were founded by Rusconi and Mondadori respectively, although I might be mistaken).

Audio file

What's the problem with including a pronunciation file? (though I prefer {{audio}} for this) David.Monniaux 12:14, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is there still any problem with this page?

I've just completed a thorough reading of this article after noticing its NPOV warning and discovered, rather to my delight, that I was unable to find examples of significant POV writing in either direction, for or against him (unless one would like to construe the length at which his legal troubles and criticisms are discussed POV, but I submit that he is a very controversial Prime Minister and he does have an arseload of legal issues, and the fact that so much information exists on these subjects is not our fault). Unless anyone within, say, the next week has an outstanding objection, I see no reason for the POV warning to remain. It is guilty of the reverse of its intention — rather than ensuring questioning and critique of a suspect article, it casts doubt upon a legitimate one. Wally 23:17, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm the user who put the notice, the reason being that, imho, B's grip on italian media is highly overestimated here. However I've no obiection to remove it, given that the NPOV is not, imho again, a black or white issue, and this article can be regarded as NPOV enough. As a final consideration: yes, B has a long judicial history, but here in Italy we've a lot of politicians with similar pedigrees, but B's one has been strongly enphasized by his opponents, for his being in office. Marius @ 06:37, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Ongoing event tag

Why does this article carry this tag? Evil Monkey∴Hello 08:14, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

I suppose that's because of the results of the recent administrative elections (April 3-4), which caused an upheaval of sorts in his party and alliance. This goes beyond the somewhat longish undeclared crisis which ended when he formed his new government; the whole "house of freedom" strategy for the upcoming 2006 elections is still being redefined, for example right now it's said that he might consider retirement or a reduced role, there are plans to merge the whole "house of freedoms" alliance in a single party, etc. Anyway, I think the tag might be removed.

Possible addition

I'm not sure this is encyclopedic, so I'm leaving it up to the editors of this article (you) whether it should be included:

A bar of soap made from Berlusconi's fat sold for 18,000 dollars last month. Here's the news article:[4]. Dave (talk) 04:32, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Dear Webmaster, I don't want to add anything about this man, but I've to protest against some prejudices you have about Italians. I rubbed out some offensive lines, but someone wrote them again. 1) I NEVER heard that "horns" are a common gesture amoung Italian pre-teens and I NEVER saw it by anyone! It's a very vulgar gesture possibly practiced in old times, when this man was young, but certainly no actual pre-teen or teen ever practice it (or know): boys and girls are too busy in front of PC or in gym or at dancing or in their other school and out-school activities. "Horns" are referred to a far past! 2) Italian youngmen are surely not machos in the way you mean, but only normally males. I read in history books about this kind of boys in the 1950s, but modern youngmen respect women and deal with them like every other European boy. There is NO macho imagine in Italy: maybe you are reffering to the time of emigrants or the times in which Berlusconi was a boy (which is, more or less, the same). I ask you to cancel these lines, offensive for all Italians, who are surely not represented by such a clown.

It is clear that you left Italy some time ago. I am Italian. 1) Horns are common use among teen and they are not vulgar anymore, much less than the middle finger. Horns in pictures are an evergreen, up to 30-years-old people. 2) It is oviously true that Italians are not all womanizers. However the degree of political corectness is much higher in scandinavian countries. The joke by Berlusconi, however, was considered unpolite also by the Italians and that's why it is reported here. Italians are represented by a "clown", given that they voted for him. --pippo2001 19:17, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


You may want to look here: [5],[6], [7]. ;) --pippo2001 19:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


Pippo, I'm Italian, too, and I live in Italy, but I don't have experience of these strange behaviours. Can I ask where are you from and how old are you? Probably, there is some local surviving, in lower ambients, of this vulgarity, but you can't surely refer this to all actual young peoples! I'd very wondered to see a boy (or an older man) to do that gesture: probably it was common when the guy was young, I don't know. In every case, I don't see the needing to write such a thing, slandering our whole country: do you feel the needing to defend that guy in some way? Italians are NOT so, and this kind of behaviours DON'T represent Italian people and Italian culture. I wrote to the webmaster thinking he was an American, and it's known that Americans usually have prejudices about Italians, based over their knowledge of ancient culture of our emigrants (and their issue), while usually don't know actual Italian culture. I wonder to read that an Italian likes to support the surviving of these prejudices. About Berlusconi's representativity (and apart from the fact I was referred to his culture and not to politics) I can say I'm a free citizen, I surely didn't vote for him, I don't feel myself represented by him in any way, and I've the right to say. I hope you don't think (like him, who has no idea of what democracy is) that democracy is only voting, after that gov. has the right to rule in a dictatorial way, because it was elected! Democracy has to be applied in every day and in every circumstance! I'm actually represented by my Deputies and my Senators at the Parliament, and, after last local elections, by the largest part of Italian public opinion, tired of stupid jokes, vulgar talks and empty words.


Wikipedia is not a place for political debate. The sentence you keep deleting is This is a common joke among Italian pre-teens, and many felt it was utterly out of place in an international meeting. referred to Berlusconi doing corna. People in the rest of the world don't even know what 'corna' are and this sentence is needed to give contest. You may want to ask to a pre-teen about the usage of these gestures, that are not vulgar anymore. Please, restrain any consideration on my social status. Prejudice is very bad, but 'slight' refinements of true are annoying. Take care --pippo2001 12:18, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

I feel it's funny (and sad, at the same time) that two anti-B italian wikipedians (btw, I'm italian as well) dispute about the meaning and the usage of corna (horns) gesture, instead of trying to deal in a NPOV style about politics, programs and so on. From the beginning this article has been often used as a propaganda panel-board by either anti-B (more) or pro-B (less). It's not wiki. --Marius 07:20, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

From what do you infer that I am anti-B (whatever this word means)? I did not edit the original text. The anonymous editor deleted parts necessary to understand what the article is talking about. If you want to add something about politics and programs, whatever yout B status is, please go on. --pippo2001 08:11, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
done (see history). Ciao. --Marius 08:22, 22 August 2005 (UTC) I'm glad you did. --pippo2001 08:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Latest edits

IMHO the latest edits about conflict of interest and control of media, done without any discussion in this page on a text which wasn't changed since a long time, in an anti-B and anti-executive Point Of View justifies the nNPOV advice to be restored. Marius 05:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I tried to NPOVize a bit. Again, it is difficult to make it sound neutral when he actually first says one thing and then publicly does the others... but that's the man. --Orzetto 00:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate (no joke) your sincerity in owning your mislike about the man. Marius 05:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

A very simple question: why do you want to be "neutral" towards peoples who are not? I think that saying things like they are would be simple justice. Why do you want to respect peoples like Berlusconi who doesn't respect anyone but himself and his own dirty interests, like all Italians, at the end, understood? Good and evil are not the same thing,I think... [anon]

I do think that there is a lot of propaganda on WP masquerading as 'NPOV'. The facts presented should be weighed by evidence, not by media control, budget, or popular vote. If there is overwhelming evidence that somebody is first and foremost a ruthless criminal, the aricle should state that, pure and simple. This goes for Berlusconi, it goes for Saddam Hussein, and it goes for George W. Bush. Since Wikipedia isn't funded by either Fox or RAI, it should be possible to avoid state-sponsored propaganda. Baad 15:32, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed Italian text

(I removed the following text from the article as it's not English. I don't really know Italian so I can't tell whether it's of value. If it's of use in the article, could someone translate? --A bit iffy 09:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC))

What Italian Courts says about Berlusconi:

1) Bugie sulla loggia P2 (falsa testimonianza) La corte d'appello di Venezia, nel 1990, dichiara Berlusconi colpevole di aver giurato il falso davanti al Tribunale di Verona a proposito della sua iscrizione alla P2 (reato coperto da amnistia nel 1989)

2) Tangenti alla Guardia di Finanza (corruzione) 1° grado: condanna a 2 anni e 9 mesi per tutte e 4 le tangenti contestate Appello: prescrizione per 3 tangenti (grazie alle attenuanti generiche), assoluzione con formula dubitativa per la quarta. nella motivazione si legge: "Il giudizio di colpevolezza dell'imputato (Berlusconi) poggia su molteplici elementi indiziari, certi, univoci, precisi e concordanti, per ciò dotati di rilevante forza persuasiva, tali da assumere valenza probatoria" Cassazone: assoluzione

3) All Iberian 1 (finanziamento illecito ai partiti) 1° grado. condanna a 2 anni e 4 mesi per i 21 MILIARDI versati estero su estero, tramite il conto All Iberian, a Bettino Craxi appello: prescrizione, tra le motivazioni della sentenza:"per nessuno degli imputati emerge daglia atti evidenza dell'innocenza" Cassazione: prescrizione confermata, tra le motivazioni della sentenza: "le operazioni societarie e finanziarie prodromiche ai finanziamenti estero sue estero dal conto intestato alla All Iberian al conto di transito nothern Holding (Craxi) furono realizzati in Italia dai vertici del gruppo Fininvest spa, con rilevante concorso di Berlusconi quale proprietario e presidente (...) Non emerge negli atti processuali l'estraneità dell'imputato".

4) All Iberian 2 (falso in bilancio) Processo sospeso in attesa che si conosca se le nuove norme in materia di reati societari approvate dal governo Berlusconi si siano legittime (deciderà l'Alta Corte di giustizia europea e la Corte costituzionale italiana. In pratica Berlusconi si è fatto la legge per scagionarsi, bisogna vedere però se gli alti organi saranno d'accordo...

5) Medusa Cinema (falso in bilancio) 1° grado: condanna a 1 anno e 4 mesi (10 MILIARDI di fondi neri che, grazie alla compravendita, vengono accantonati su una serie di libretti al portatore di Silvio Berlusconi) Appello: assoluzione con formula dubitativa. Secondo il collegio Berlusconi è così ricco che potrebbe anche non essersi reso conto di come, nel corso della compravendita, il suo collaboratore Carlo Bernasconi (condannato) gli abbia versato 10 MILIARDI di lire in nero. Cassazione: sentenza d'appello confermata

6)Terreni di Macherio (appropriazione indebita, frode fiscale, falso in bilancio) 1° grado: assoluzione dall'appropriazione indebita e dalla frode fiscale (4, 4 MILIARDI pagati in nero), prescrizione per i falsi in bilancio di due società ai quali "indubbiamente ha concorso Berlusconi" Appello: confermata l'assoluzione dalle prime due accuse. Assoluzione anche per uno dei due reati di falso in bilancio, per il secondo è intervenuta l'amnistia. Cassazone: in corso.

7) Caso Lentini (falso in bilancio) 1°grado: reato prescritto per la legge su falso in bilancio (10 MILIARDI versati in nero al Torino Calcio per l'acquisto del giocatore Luigi Lentini) Appello: in corso

8) Consolidato gruppo Fininvest (falso in bilancio) Il gip Fabio Paparella ha dichiarato prescritti, sulla base della nuova legge sul faso in bilancio, i 1500 MILIARDI (!) di presunti fondi neri accantonati dal gruppo Berlusconi su 64 società off-shore della galassia All Iberian (comparto B della Fininvest). Il pm Francesco Greco ha però presentato ricorso in Cassazione

9) Lodo Mondadori (corruzione giudiziaria) 1° grado: concessione delle attenuanti generiche ("Berlusconi è diventato Presidente del Consiglio"), ma condanna a Cesare Previti Appello e Cassazione: prescrizione

10) Sme-Ariosto (falso in bilancio) Reato stralciato in seguito all'entrata in vigore delle nuove norme sul diritto societario, (Berlusconi avrebbe versato denaro ad alcuni giudici...). Il processo è fermo in attesa che l'Alta Corte di giustizia europea si pronunci, dato che queste nuove norme in vigore potrebbero essere in contrasto con quelle comunitarie. Ma anche in caso di risposta positiva per i giudici, resterà bloccato per il lodo Schifani. Come del resto tutti gli altri procedimenti ancora in corso a carico di Silvio Berlusconi.

11) Diritti televisivi (falso in bilancio e frode fiscale) Indagini preliminari in corso alla Procura di Milano a carico di numerosi manager del gruppo, più il presidente di Mediaset Fedele Confalonieri e il titolare Silvio Berlusconi, il quale - secondo l'ipotesi accusatoria - avrebbe continuato anche dopo l'ingresso in politica nel '94 ad esercitare di fatto il ruolo di dominus dell'azienda. Oggetto dell'indagine: una serie di operazioni finanziarie di acquisto di diritti cinematografici e televisivi da major americone, con vorticosi passaggi fra una società estera e l'altra del gruppo Berlusconi, con il risultato di far lievitare artificiosamente il prezzo dei beni compravenduti e beneficiare di sconti fiscali previsti dalla legge Tremonti, approvata dal primo governo dello stesso Berlusconi. Il presunto falso in bilancio è valutato intorno ai 180 milioni di Euro (circa 350 MILIARDI)

12) Telecinco (violazione delle leggi antitrusti e frode fiscale in Spagna) Il giudice anticorruzione di Madrid Baltasàr Garzòn Real, dopo aver chiesto nel 2001 al governo italiano di processare Berlusconi o, in alternativa, di privarlo dell'immunità in modo di poterlo giudicare in Spagna, non ha ancora ricevuto risposta. berlusconi in Spagna è accusato - insieme a Marcello dell'Utri (pregiudicato) e altri dirigenti Fininvest - di aver posseduto, grazie a vari prestanomi e operazioni finanziarie illecite, il controllo pressoché totalitario dell'emittente Telecinco, in violazione dell'antitrust spagnola.

13) Mafia (concorso esterno in associazione mafiosa e riciclaggio di denaro sporco) Indagini archiviate a Palermo su richiesta della Procura per scadenza termini massimi concessi per indagare.

14) Bombe del 1992 e del 1993 (concorso in strage) Le inchieste delle procure di firenze e Caltanissetta sui presunti "mandanti a volto coperto" delle stragi 1992 (Falcone e Borsellino) e del 1993 (Milano, Firenze, Roma) sono state archiviate per scadenza dei termini d'indagine. A firenze, il 14 novembre 1998, il gip Giuseppe Soresina ha però rilevato come Berlusconi e Dell'Utri abbiano "intrattenuto rapporti non meramente episodici con i soggetti criminali cui è riferibile il programma stragista realizzato". Cioè con il clan corleonese che da 20 anni guida Cosa Nostra, con centinaia di omicidi e una mezza dozzina di stragi. Il gip aggiunge: "Esiste un'obbiettiva convergenza degli interessi pubblici di Cosa Nostra rispetto ad alcune qualificate linee programmatiche della nuova formazione (forza Italia): articolo 41 bis, legislazione sui collaboratori di giustizia, recupero del garantismo processuale..."



There follows the translation - User paraw April 2nd 2006

There is the translation. I'd like also to point out a detail of Italian judiciary laws: when one is acquitted of the charges due to the time that has passed from the alleged crime to the trial (prescrizione), even though one is not sent to jail or fined, one is still considered guilty of the alleged crime, and one's criminal record is accordingly updated. If, instead, a person is judged completely innocent, then the sentence doesn't mention the prescrizione at all (and, of course, the criminal record is untouched). That is why it seems from the proceedings that the defendant has, in some cases, been acquitted because guilty; the fact is that, in those cases, he's been found guilty, but too much time had passed, therefore allowing him to claim the prescrizione. This is not clearly stated in the article. Anyway, translation follows.

1) Lies on freemasonry society P2 (perjury). The appeal court of Venice, in 1990, declares Berlusconi guilty of having spoken false statements under oath (falsa testimonianza) before the Tribunal of Verona about his enrollment in the P2 (felony pardoned by amnisty in 1989)


2) Bribes to the Guardia di Finanza, Italian financial police (corruption). 1st degree: sentenced to 2 years and 9 months after conviction for all the 4 allegiations of corruption. Appeal: prescrizione for 3 of the 4 allegiations (thanks to generic attenuating reasons), acquittal with doubt benefit for the remaining. The judge's explanation was: "The judgement of guilt for the defendant (Berlusconi) is founded onto many indiciary elements which are sure, univocous, precise and concordant, therefore having a relevant persuading strength, such to give them proof validity." Cassazione (Italian supreme court): acquittal


3) All Iberian, 1st proceeding (illegal funding of political parties). 1st degree: sentenced to 2 years and 4 months after conviction about 21 billions deposited from a foreign bank account (owned by All Iberian) to a foreign bank account owned by Bettino Craxi. Appeal: prescrizione; the judge's explanation: "There doesn't come out, from the proceedings, any evidence of innocence for any of the defendants." Cassazione: confirmed prescrizione; judge's explanation: "The financial and corporate operations preparing the foreign-to-foreign funding from the account owned by All Iberian to the checking account owned by Northern Holding (controlled by Craxi) were done in Italy by the top managers of the Fininvest S.p.A., with a relevant cooperation of Berlusconi as owner and president [...] From the trial proceedings there doesn't come out the defendant's extraneity."


4) All Iberian, 2nd proceeding (false statement of account). The proceeding has been suspended, pending another proceeding before the High Court of Justice of the EU and the Italian Constitutional Court, ruling over the constitutionality of the new laws passed by the Berlusconi government, which redefine many of the financial crimes and associated trials.

The next sentence is, IMHO, not neutral; I translated it, but suggest not to include it. Practically, Berlusconi made a law to acquit himself, but we should wait and see whether or not the other institutions will agree...


5) Medusa Cinema (false statement of account). 1st degree: sentenced to 1 year and 4 months after conviction about 10 undeclared billions laundered on many checking accounts owned by Silvio Berlusconi. Appeal: acquittal with doubt benefit.

The next sentence was, IMHO, not neutral; I translated it, using what I think is a more appropriate language. According to the judges, since he has a huge number of bank transactions, Berlusconi didn't realize that his collaborator Carlo Bernasconi, who was convicted, deposited the money on his accounts without declaring it.

Cassazione: the court confirmed the sentence of the appeal court.


6) Macherio real estates (unlawful appropriation, tax fraud, false statement of account). 1st degree: acquitted from unlawful appropriation and tax fraud, prescrizione for the 2 allegiations of false statement of account, for which, according to the sentence, "Berlusconi is guilty, together with others, beyond any reasonable doubt". Appeal: the court confirmed the acquittal from the first 2 allegiations, and acquitted him for one of the 2 allegiations of false statement of account. For the remaining allegiation he obtained an amnesty. Cassazone: pending.


7) Lentini trial (false statement of account). 1st degree: prescrizione according to the new law, turning the false statement of account from felony to a misdemeanour; the allegiation was having deposited 10 undeclared billions to the Torino Calcio (football club) for the purchase of the soccer player Luigi Lentini. Appeal: pending.


8) Fininvest holding (false statement of account). The GIP (Giudice per le Indagini Preliminari - Judge for the Preliminary Investigations) has declared valid the prescrizione for the alleged 1500 undeclared billions deposited by the group owned by Berlusconi onto accounts belonging to 64 off-shore companies controlled by the All Iberian group, in its turn controlled by Fininvest. The prosecutor Francesco Greco has appealed to the Cassazione.


9) Lodo Mondadori (corruption of judges). 1st degree: prescrizione because of the attenuating reasons (being Prime Minister). The appeal court and the Cassazione have confirmed the prescrizione.


10) Sme-Ariosto (false statement of account). The proceeding has been suspended, pending another proceeding before the High Court of Justice of the EU and the Italian Constitutional Court, ruling over the constitutionality of the new laws passed by the Berlusconi government, which redefine many of the financial crimes and associated trials. Actually, even if the aforementioned law will be cancelled, the proceeding will be blocked by means of the lodo Schifani.

The next sentence is, IMHO, not neutral; I translated it, but suggest not to include it. As it happens to all the proceedins still pending against Silvio Berlusconi.


11) Television rights (false statement of account and tax fraud). The preliminary investigations are still going on. The allegiations against Silvio Berlusconi are: with the help of the president of Mediaset, Fedele Confalonieri, and many other managers of the group, he would have kept governing the company even after starting his political party in 1994; he would have started a series of financial operations involving purchase of cinema and TV rights from American majors, using complicated steps between foreign companies owned by his group, with the goal of making the price of the purchased goods increase, thus obtaining tax discounts by the means of the Tremonti law, approved by his own government. The alleged false statement of account is estimated around 180 millions.


12) Telecinco (violation of antitrust laws and tax fraud - pending in Spain).

The entire number 12 was, IMHO, not neutral; I translated and edited it, using what I think is a more appropriate language.

Berlusconi has been charged in Spain together with Marcello dell'Utri and other Fininvest managers with obtaining the total control of the TV channel Telecinco using figureheads and illegal financial operations, thus violating the Spanish antitrust law.


13) Mafia (external participation in mafious conspiracy and money laundering). The proceedings has been closed on request of the Attorney General, since the deadline to finish the investigations has passed.


14) 1992 and 1993 bombings (complicity in massacre). The proceeding has been closed on request of the Attorney General, since the deadline to finish the investigations has passed. The allegiations were made within the investigations concerning the massacres of 1992 (in which the judges Falcone and Borsellino were killed by two high potential explosive devices) and the terror bombing of 1993 (in the cities of Milan, Florence and Rome). The judge for the preliminary investigations, Giuseppe Soresina, declared on November 14th 1998 that Berlusconi and Dell'Utri had "kept long term relationships with the criminals responsible of the massacres", i.e. with the Corleone clan, leading Cosa Nostra since 20 years ago. The judge also declared: "There is an objective convergence of the public interests of Cosa Nostra with some of the qualified points of the program of the new political movement Forza Italia: the article 41 bis, the laws on justice collaborators, reform of the presumption of innocence..."

Suspect contribution

I found nothing about this on the internet:

section Racism

Silvio Berlusconi in 1998 accused the United Kingdom of having a poor economy and of having a foul mouthed population who did nothing but drink beer and swear.Because of this act of hatered Silvio was given a formal warning by members of the EU and Tony Blair himself.

by John Nathan, New York, USA

To the anonimus author:Please provide some source. --BMF81 22:40, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Further details about the Sources for Banca Rasini and money laundering

From the interview with Michele Sindona (bankrupted P2 member linked with Cosa Nostra and the laundering of Mafia money), made and published by NY Times journalist Nick Tosches: When asked which banks were used by the Mafia, he replied: "In Sicily sometimes the Banco di Sicilia. In Milan a little bank in Piazza Mercanti" that is, the Banca Rasini.

Furtermore (but not currently present in the article), according to the references L'odore dei soldi and multilanguage paper, "Well-known Mafia figures and Sicilian drug dealers held bank accounts at the Banca Rasini, including Antonio Virgilio, Salvatore Enea, and Luigi Monti, who is linked with Vittorio Mangano, the Mafia figure who worked as overseer in Berlusconi's villa".

In the cited interview ([8], [9]) of journalist Marco Travaglio, he says that "Banca Rasini [...] was among those banks that were cited by Palermo judges as those used for mafia money laundering" (originally in italian: "Banca Rasini [...] era una delle banche che è indicata dai giudici di Palermo come quelle utilizzate per il riciclaggio del denaro della mafia".
--BMF81 15:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

"Going Down into the Field", revision request

One important missing part of this section, is the long debated question about the reasons for Berlusconi entering in politics. Before adding it to the article, I ask for help on writing it in a proper english (some translation from italian is still missing) and making it neutral-POV.
--BMF81 15:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


the text:
One of the most debated matters about Berlusconi has been about which are the true reasons for Berlusconi entering in politics. Some critics argued that Berlusconi did it to take care of his own interest, being saving his own companies from bankrupt and himself from convictions. Berlusconi and his followers argued instead that he was so rich that he would had no interst in using politics to became even richer, and regarding his trials they argued that just after Berlusconi entering in politics, his opposers tried to get rid of him by a judicial persecution.

Investigating this questions some journalist cited some facts:
Mediobanca's annual report about the 10 biggest italian companies, showed that in 1992 Berlusconi's media and fincance group Fininvest had about 7140 bilion lire of debts, while its net worth amounted to 'just' 1053. Furthermore, the creditor banks started aksing money back and the advertising income stopped to grow after the big increases of the previous years.
Between 1992 and 1993, Fininvest encountered several judicial investigation by Milan, Turin and Rome prosecutors. They regarded: alleged bribes (to political parties and public officers in the aim of getting contracts), alleged fake invoices of Publitalia, political congress financing and television frequencies.

Missing information: money that Berlusconi made with politics

Here there is an article that summarizes all the available information about "Money that Berlusconi made with politics, before and after his campaigning". --BMF81 15:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV?

I'm new to Wikipedia, but I wonder why a so-called "Free Encyclopedia" allows people to write an article like this one. This is clearly not NPOV, but I don't see any lines about it. Reading it, you see only political comments written against Berlusconi (it's funny to read lines where writers describe "good laws" putting, in the end, that the idea comes from "previuos governments"). Do you really think that people can consider Wikipedia a good source of information if you keep articles like this one? It's a shame to keep up this work under an unequal point of view. --82.50.122.195 10:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

If you want to be constructive, you should be more precise than that: please cite the exact phrases/words that you consider not true, or not neutral.
Here is my opinion about the only remark you made: it was pretty soft argument for a NPOV dispute; the section you mentioned was not about "good laws" but about "Legislative actions"; I also think that It's important to see facts in an "historical perspective", citing possible relevant works/omissions of previous goverments.
--BMF81 12:44, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
My aim wasn't to be constructive, because a "constructive person" would cancel almost the whole text of the article and re-write it under a real NPOV. I just wanted to be sure that I was (and am, in my personal opinion) right: people like the ones who defend such an article are driven by a political ideal and not by the principles of a NPOV. That ideal could be summarized like "I don't like Berlusconi, so I want to let people see him under a bad aspect. If he did something good, it's better to say that doesn't come from him, but he took the idea from somebody who was in the government before him". I do not even like people like Berlusconi, but I would never say I'm neutral while describing him only starting from my own political thoughts. That's all. And you know that's right (even if you will never admit it publicly)..
--82.50.124.61 14:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
If you think it isn't NPOV, add other material telling what he did good. I can't think of anything good he did, but of course there must have been something ;-) On a serious note, the law against smoking was effective, but it has already been mentioned. In other cases... it is a fact that inheritance taxes were abolished by the left wing administration for all inheritances below 400.000 euro (or something like that), which includes almost all inheritances, except for a small percentage of the population, including Berlusconi. Berlusconi abolished it for these people. It is a fact that the driver licence reform was approved by the leftist administration. One day after it entered into effect, the Berlusconi government changed it a bit with a sort of executive order, overriding the parliament. Not just the idea, also the actualization of the idea belongs to the previous administration. He is the only prime minister ever in Italy to assume office with a prior conviction. And so on. A NPOV means you can't hide these facts. Just mention other facts about any good thing he did. --Lou Crazy 00:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Driving code

Lou what are you saying?

  • inheritance tax was effective for all people in Italy and in was at 4%
  • the riform of driving code is a very old idea, but leftist administration didn't actualized it at all: in fact it has been approved by Parliament only 3 years after Berlusconi's elections winning.

82.52.64.157 17:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Yes, inheritance tax was effective for everyone, then the leftist governmment exempted all inheritances below 400.000 euro or some figure like that. Which effectively meant almost no one had to pay it any more. One of the first laws of the right wing majority was to exempt those high incomes, too.
  • The first law which insituted a point system for driver licences was a "Legge delega" approved by the former left wing parliament. After this there have been a "decreto legislativo" and later a "decreto legge" about it by Berlusconi's majority. The first application of "patente a punti" was in July 2003. By that time Berlusconi had had slightly more than 2 years in power, not 3.
    Lou Crazy 23:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

The things you are saying are wrong for both points. To approve a "Legge delega" doesn't mean at all that are approved regulaments; au contraire it means that government gets the power to approve a law. But they didn't at all! So, I think that everyone can understand what is the difference between getting the power to do something and doing it. Isn't it?
82.54.143.134 14:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course a "Legge delega" only gives the government the power to issue a "Decreto Legislativo" following the guidelines in the Legge Delega. And it is true that this power was left in the hands of Berlusconi's government because in the meanwhile it had won the election. But their Decreto Legislativo was so bad that the very same government had to issue a Decreto Legge do change it from top to bottom. So, on june 30 in Italy we had the old driving code. In July 1st the Decreto Legislativo came into effect, and a new driving code took the place of the older one. On July 2nd the Decreto Legge came into effect, and we had another different driving code. Three different driving codes in three consecutive days. That's a record! --Lou Crazy 01:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Mangano NPOV

I agree with the anonymous who says the article is NPOV. In particular ther paragraph talking about mr.Mangano: it says clearly that Berlusconi is part of mafia. It is absolutely false: a lot of court sentences said he didn't know that Mangano was a member of the Mafia! If Berlusconi will read this article I think that Wikipedia will get a cause for slander 82.52.64.157 17:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I note that none answered me about Mangano. I read both English and Italian Wikipedia and I note down that Italian version is absolutely better! Many English articles are really approssimative, poor and less careful to contents. 82.54.143.134 14:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I wrote most of the paragraph about Mangano, so I'm the one to blame if you don't like it :) On a more serious note, I think that you have some problems with language, if you argue that “it says clearly that Berlusconi is part of mafia”. Please read it again and cite its exact phrases.
If you know any court sentence that states that “Berlusconi didn't know that Mangano was a member of the Mafia”, you are more than welcome, as anybody, to add an accurate reference to the article.--BMF81 19:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Three times Prime Minister

Please note that Berlusconi has been Prime Minister three times, but the article states twice (on April 28th 2005 a new Government went on power, and S.B. was and is its Prime Minister). I did not want to edit the article by myself, since it is a delicate issue and I did not follow all the discussions related to it. Anyway, I think this is an important mistake to fix, and it is easy to be NPOV about that (just change the dates in the box etc). Gala.martin 00:28, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's true. Take a look here. Hill (from it.wiki)

This article is obviously Left-Oriented

Someone must rewrite this article, from a neutral POV if possible. Because the way it is now, is obviously not high enough for the Wikipedia standard. In some passages it sounds more like a political-attack text, rather than an encyclopedia article.

Many statement need sources.

Private life

This article says nothing about Mr. Berlusconi's private life, past marriages and family. XanaX 14:44, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

guilty verdicts

I move here this sentence from the Member of Propaganda Due masonry lodge section, since it is not true:
So far, this is the only guilty verdict he suffered. This is not true, since he got others verdicts that proved him guilty:

None of them sentenced him to jail, because of prescriptive period, but all of them declared him guilty.
--BMF81 10:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


This is what happens when one tries to express concepts from one judicial system in another language. In Italian I would have said "Questa e` l'unica condanna ricevuta finora da S.B.". In all other trials he was either absolved due to statute of limitations ("prescrizione" in Italian), sometimes because the action in question is not illegal (e.g. if his company doesn't pay taxes, he knows it but didn't specifically tell his employees to avoid paying them it is not a crime) or in some rare cases because the the court found there wasn't enough proof that he had committed the alleged crime. But the P2 trial is the only one which left a criminal record for him. How should we say that in english? --Lou Crazy 02:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

(User BMF81, please note that) S.B. was decleared guilty in some senteces, not in all sentences. (User Luo Crazy, please note that) According to Italian law, "prescrizione" is different from absolution. Absolution is a sentence declaring absence of guiltiness. "Prescrizione" is a declaration of gultiness about an extinct crime. So, S.B was decleared guilty more than once. Gala.martin 15:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't mean all the sentecences he received in his life, I meant all those I cited. I forgot to cite my souces: [10], just question 4. It's of several months ago, 2005, so there may be some more definitive guilty sentences. --BMF81 17:26, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


Gala, actually "prescrizione" means that the time expired for getting a sentence on a crime. The court won't waste time saying if someone is guilty or not guilty. They move on to other business. A "prescrizione" is not a guilty verdict (even though sometimes the motivation for prescrizione will mention enough evidence to support a conviction...)
Anyway, how would you translate "Questa e` l'unica condanna ricevuta finora da S.B." in proper legal terms? --Lou Crazy 03:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Your description of the italian "prescrizione" (which is equivalent to the prescriptive period not to the statute of limitations) is not correct. Sometimes verdicts with prescrizione state completely that the respondent is guilty for a crime (not just give enough evidence to argue that he is). This is the case of the sentences I cited, and (for istance) also of the verdict that found Giulio Andreotti totally guilt of mafia untill Spring 1980; this happens when the trial lasts enough to come to a full verdict, even if the computation of the prescriptive period states that it is too late for a conviction.
In other cases, like the ones you were talking about, the prescriptive period imposes to end the trial too early to come to a full guilty verdict; the evidences found so far are provided in the verdict, and in some cases they are enough to support a conviction; but again, this is not the case of the trials I cited. --BMF81 09:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I do not know English proper legal terms (and think the whole article should be checked by a native English speaking reviewer). You both are right, "prescrizione" is not a declearation of guiltiness, I just meant that it could be (a declaration of guiltiness) in some cases. Gala.martin 20:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Typos + Grammar

I can not even figure out what this sentence is meant to say. Can someone fix it up?

Even if the opposition and some allied parties recognized Berlusconi could not achieve what he promised in the contract, most of his allies agree in finding the reasons of this failure in the unfavourable economical condition Italy is living.

This article is full of typos and bad grammar that need fixing --222.153.59.189 04:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


I tried to fix it. But still I am not satisfied with that sentence. Please, check it! Gala.martin 21:51, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

i protest

I'm italian, and i think this article isn't neutral at all..i officially protest!

i really don't like the italian way of justice, because the italian magistrature is ruled by CMS whose members had been chosen mostly among those judges who support the left-wing of the national parliament...nowadays the ones, who started investigating on Berlusconi some time ago,are leaders or members of some parties of the left-wing of the Parliament (for example,the most famous one of them is Antonio di Pietro who leads a party called: "Italia dei valori")

Recently many magistrates have used the magistrature to fight their political enemies : for example the old Italian Socialist Party (PSI) and the old Demochristian one (DC) were annihilated some time ago by the magistrature because those parties had taken illicit money by some italian businessmen;but the old Italian Cominist Party had taken illicit money by the Soviet Republic that was the enemy of the entire West....if someone wanna know something more about that, he has to read something about the: "Mithrokin documents"..Mithrokin had been workin for the KGB for a long time during the soviet regime and he decided to tell everybody the truth about that event...the point is that no italian magistrates started investigating on the comunist party because most of them were as neutral as the one who posted this article

Wikipedia ought to be an encyclopedia not a polical forum, but i'd love to read neutral articles only on here...by the way sorry for my awful english, i'll try to improve it soon:)

P.S. my nick on wikipedia is : LEGATVSLEGIONIS;i'm a noob that's why i really don't know how to put some links in on this site :)


Greetings LEGATVSLEGIONIS 06:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


Maybe this article suffers some POV troubles. If you think so, please point out where. If you think you can improve it, do it. On the other hand, whatever you think about CMS, it is considered neutral by intenational analysts. According to international associations, as like UN or Amnesty, italian democracy has suffered two main attacks since WW2:

  • The so called stragismo, that, together with hidden associations as like P2 and Gladio, tried to drive italian votes away from the the communist party
  • The behaviour of italian police and army in Genova, during the so called G8.

According to UN and Amnesty Int., elections in Italy have always been regular. Moreover, as far as I know, the international analysts never said that biased judges where attacking any italian government for political reasons (after WW2). So, it is obvious that wikipedia should consider this official point of view as faithful, whatever you or Berlusconi think. From my point of view, for instance, Berlusconi has always been quite lucky with justice, and he was often able to receive sentence from friendly judges. Anyway, this is just what I think, and of course it is not something I can write on the article. I repeat, please point out where the article is not NPOV and try to improve it. Anyway, I think that an article about Berlusconi should deal with his problems with justice. If some documentation is provided, one can add some words about the fact that Berlusconi himself says that italian judges are biased et cetera. But I think it is clear from the article that he always claimed his innocence (but for the P2 affiliation). Gala.martin 21:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


“whatever you think about CMS, it is considered neutral by intenational analysts" CSM (Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura=High Council of the Magistrature) is something like a small parliament of the Italian justice; there are several different political parties in there, and those parties are strongly related to the ones of the National Parliament…most of the members of that council support those parties related to the left-wing ones of the Parliament so I really don’t think CSM is neutral

“The so called stragismo, that, together with hidden associations as like P2 and Gladio, tried to drive italian votes away from the the communist party” The old Italian communist party had taked illicit money by the Sovietic Comunist Party for a long time according to the “mithrokin documents”; their aim wasn’t so lovely and nice: they were planning to begin a communist revolution in italy, and the communism was the enemy of the Freedom

“The behaviour of italian police and army in Genova, during the so called G8.” and what about the behaviour of some demonstrators? I joined the Italian army at the end of 2000, and I had been working in a special regiment of the army (the 11th Regiment of Bersaglieri) for a year only..well I was one of those soldiers in Genoa and I can tell u some demonstrators usually put a mask on before burning everything…if u’d like to know more about that event, drop me a line in “my talk”

“I think that an article about Berlusconi should deal with his problems with justice….But I think it is clear from the article that he always claimed his innocence (but for the P2 affiliation)”yea, of course that’s true..by the way u should also wtite in ur article that most of those legal investigations were so ridicolus that they had been stopped immedialety

“I repeat, please point out where the article is not NPOV” : 1) “The debate about the motives” I can find just some personal opinions and fascinating theories in there 2) “There have been harsh criticisms on Berlusconi's choices: the ministry of Health, previously occupied by Girolamo Sirchia, a famous doctor, has been given to Francesco Storace, who, only a few weeks earlier, lost the regional elections in Latium. Another controversial move was the nomination of Giulio Tremonti as Vice-Prime Minister. Tremonti had been the Minister of Economy just few years earlier, but was forced to resign. He is strongly supported by the Northern League, but opposed by UDC and AN.” Not a very neutral point of view…maybe u don’t agree with those Berlusconi’s choises, and u’re free to think what u wanna, but that’s absolutely not an objective fact 3) “Legislative actions” This part ought to be the most important one of your article, because people around the world have known him since he became a politician..but you forgot to extend it (nothing about two of important reforms----the reforms of labour and school systems) 4) “Berlusconi's influence over RAI became evident when in Sofia, Bulgaria he expressed his views on the journalists Enzo Biagi, Michele Santoro [13], and comedian Daniele Luttazzi after his satiric behaviour and his interview with journalist Marco Travaglio.” You forgot to say what Michele Santoro and Enzo Biagi did just a little before that election day….i’d love to talk a lot about that, but I could definitely annoy the ones who are reading my reply right now 5) “Conflicts of interests” well, I agree with u…by the way u forgot to say that this problem isn’t recent; in your opinion, how come the Left-wing didn’t resolve it (and the Left-wing had ruled over italy for several years ‘till 5 years ago)? 6) “Sense of Humour” irrelevant part..sense of humour is one of the most personal and not objective things on the Earth..and then I remember a lot of funnier jokes than the ones that u’ve put in the article….and I think u’ve chosen those ones to try to show everyone how unliberal Berlusconi is 7) “Legal investigations of Berlusconi” you should talk a bit about the Italian justice and especially how exactly it works (I’ve already reminded you something about CSM) 8) “Personality” another irrelevant and not neutral part

At the end i think your article isn’t neutral at all…but I won’t modify it because i absolutely detest the ones who like vandalizing some articles on wikipedia LEGATVSLEGIONIS 03:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I am glad you pointed out parts of the article that you think are POV. I think this article needs several improvements, and that it does NOT satisfies wikipedia NPOV standards. Anyway, it is quite hard to deal with a so delicate issue (in these days in particular); anyway, if you feel able to improve it, please do.
About stragismo and G8, I was not writing about my ideas. I was just reporting what Amnesty Int. decleared. Moreover, if you trust some judges, you can read what they stated about this facts (for instance, about what policemen did during Geneva's G8; it has been proved that they injuried people while sleeping, and hide weapons and drugs in their bags in order to imprison them).
About italian judges, I repeat: if you think it is relevant, you can add some sentence in the paper about the fact that Berlusconi said the judges to be politically driven. Anyway, I think it is a personal statement. I want to be clear about that. When one writes an article about a politician on wikipedia, he has to be really careful. Many politician have been sued/condemned for many reasons. You can always guess that the judges were biased. But sometimes you should write it on wikipedia, sometimes it is just a guess. When soviet judges condemned Stalin's opposers, they were likely biased. Simply, Stalin wanted his enemies dead and provided some judges to do the work. History tells us they were biased. The same in Chile during Pinochet's dictatorship, and, alas, many other times. If you want to state that italian judges are biased, you need some evidence. Since all the international analysts, as far as I know, never said anything about italian judges, you cannot say that as a truth. If you think there are enough indications to write, as a guess, that they are biased, you can start a discussion about that in this page.
Please, don't be afraid about editing articles. Any genuine effort to improve an article, is not vandalizing. No one can blame you if you edit an article, as long as you are honest and faithful.

Gala.martin 19:22, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


About G8, i’ve never denied what u said; but if you have talked about the behaviour of some policemen only,u should drop a line about the behaviour of some demonstrators also in my opinion; dozens of shop-windows were shattered, some policemen who had to defend the Red-Zone, were attacked several times by some demostrators who used lots of different weapons: sticks, fire-extinguishers (for example do u remember what Carlo Giuliani was trying to do just a little before his death?), stones and bricks…hundreds of international cameramen shooted everything

“About italian judges, I repeat: if you think it is relevant, you can add some sentence in the paper about the fact that Berlusconi said the judges to be politically driver” you talked a lot about some irrelevant jokes in ur article, how come didn’t u tell anything about that important matter???

“Anyway, I think it is a personal statement. I want to be clear about that. When one writes an article about a politician on wikipedia, he has to be really careful.”..yea, he has to be careful, especially if he starts talking about several legal investigations and he doesn’t say a word about the end of those investigations….for example if some investigations were stopped because they were based on false prooves, u shouldn’t talk about them at all on a neutral enciclopedya; the one who writes something about a politician should talk about certain things, not about fascinating theories

“Many politician have been sued/condemned for many reasons. You can always guess that the judges were biased. But sometimes you should write it on wikipedia, sometimes it is just a guess. When soviet judges condemned Stalin's opposers, they were likely biased. Simply, Stalin wanted his enemies dead and provided some judges to do the work. History tells us they were biased. The same in Chile during Pinochet's dictatorship, and, alas, many other times” ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Stalin???? Pinochet???? So Berlusconi is quite related to Stalin or Pinochet in your opinion…..Berlusconi was elected by the Italian people 5 years ago, he’s absolutely democratic and i’d be really surprised if u don’t agree with me…

“If you want to state that italian judges are biased, you need some evidence. Since all the international analysts, as far as I know, never said anything about italian judges, you cannot say that as a truth.” Yeah, u’re right, I don’t have any evidence, that’s just my personal idea, so i won’t write anything about that on Wikipedia….but maybe those “international analysts” don’t know much about Italy, because half of Italians usually think some judges use their power to attack their political enemy; I could do dozens of different examples, but of course I don’t know if that’s the truth, but it seems the truth….just a question: if an international analyst says that Berlusconi’s daddy was born on Jupiter, can u really think that’s the truth? I believe in the certain prooves, in the facts, and sometimes I’m doubtful about those “international alalysts”

However I’ve never edited an article before, and honestly I wouldn’t edit your article even if i was quite good at doing it, because I know I’d not be neutral enough and because my English is too bad; I’d love to cooperate with you to make your article a little bit better by the way; maybe 2 not-neutral minds can write a neutral article, who knows? LEGATVSLEGIONIS 12:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


  • Please, do not take apart some of my words to give them a different meaning. I never said that Berlusconi is equal to Stalin or Pinochet. I just said that italian judges are recognized to be different from what the soviet judges were (during Stalin's dictatorship). I do not know how you could read any attack against Berlusconi in that.
  • I like proves and fact as well. And, from my point of view, there is no reason to believe italian judges are biased. Anyway, I repeat it once again, if you think you can add some information to this article, please do it.
  • This is not my article, I just made a few edits. I think there are some problems with this article. You see, NPOV is not a completely meaningful word. Everybody has his point of view, and his contribution is welcome as far as he writes what he really believes, and is not factious. An article satisfies the NPOV standard if many people contribute to it, with different points of view. I think that people who wrote this article made a good job, but unfortunately almost all of them had similar points of view. So, that's good you have different ideas, and your contribution would be really valuable. If you feel uncomfortable with your english, just write your contribution down on this discussion page, and ask to some english native people to check it.
  • Your partecipation should be active. You cannot say this article is bad and that's it. You should improve it! Remember: don't be dense Gala.martin 16:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


Hi LEGATVSLEGIONIS, I think you should check your facts. A few hints...
  1. Both at the time of Tangentopoli and later, even left wing politicians have been tried and sometimes condemned; they had no impunity
  2. Gerardo d'Ambrosio, one of the Tangentopoli judges, has always been regarded as right wing, especially after his inquiry into the death of Pinelli in 1972
  3. Antonio di Pietro was offered a place in the first Berlusconi cabinet. Maybe Berlusconi regarded him as right wing, at the time? It is possible, since he's always been on friendly terms with Tremaglia and Alemanno. Why was Antonio di Pietro never really accepted in the center-left alliance? Because he's essentially a right wing person, like Montanelli was.
--Lou Crazy 04:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Lou Crazy

“Both at the time of Tangentopoli and later, even left wing politicians have been tried and sometimes condemned; they had no impunity” that’s quite correct; by the way those judges, who began tangentopoli, usually investigated on PSI (a socialist party and, so, left oriented) and on DC but not on PCI (the communist party); PCI had taken much illicit money not by some Italian businessmen (DC and PSI did it), but by the enemy of the entire West (the soviet communist party)…but there were no serious investigations on PCI and so PSI and DC only were annihilated…now the prooves about that event are known, but a left-oriented government deleted that crime from the list of the Italian crimes (an “ad personam” law :) ) just some years ago In the Italian code of laws, there’s an important principle called: “l’obbligatorietà dell’azione penale dei pubblici ministeri”; I don’t know how to say it in proper English; by the way thanks to that principle, the judges are obliged to investigate as soon as someone starts accusing someone else, but they AREN’T obliged to investigate on someone IMMEDIATELY; sometimes they start investigating on something (or on someone) after several years, sometimes immediately…those judjes, who have political purposes, could use that principle to hit their political enemy and sometimes it's happened in my opinion

“[[Gerardo d'Ambrosio, one of the Tangentopoli judges, has always been regarded as right wing, especially after his inquiry into the death of Pinelli in 1972...Antonio di Pietro was offered a place in the first Berlusconi cabinet. Maybe Berlusconi regarded him as right wing, at the time? It is possible, since he's always been on friendly terms with Tremaglia and Alemanno. Why was Antonio di Pietro never really accepted in the center-left alliance? Because he's essentially a right wing person, like Montanelli was.]]” That’s a really good point; but in my opinion that’s not quite true: Di Pietro isn’t a right-wing person..but I couldn’t call him a left wing person either…if he was a politician some time ago, maybe he had joined DC. By the way his party is in the Left, that's a fact..and some years ago he investigated on Berlusconi...i really don't like that strong connection between politics and magistrature

However honestly I wouldn’t like to begin a political debat; I’d love to read just a neutral article on Berlusconi ( and not a left or a right-oriented one); that’s why I’ve decided to start writing a new article on him; I’m going to search for some neutral sources only, and I’d love to write just the facts, not the theories if u know what I mean….so I’d be glad to be helped by everyone who’d love doing it, because I wanna be sure of the high neutrality of that article Regards LEGATVSLEGIONIS 06:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


Judges biased? When Berlusconi gets caught he claims judges are biased, then changes the law so that he can get away with his crimes... Who's biased?

NPOV dispute

I hereby join the movement which claims that the neutrality of the articles is to be disputed. There are severe assertations which are disputable, as legatvslegionis said. I believe, that the article should be rewritten. Another problem is that the article is longer than desirable accortding to the Wikipedia Policies.

I believe, the article should be written by an Italian, who has complete knowledge of the political arena in Italy, and has the capability to mantain a neutral pov. With the help of other users, potential problems especially with regards to language may be resolved. Maltesedog 10:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

In order to reach consensus and neutrality, when adding an NPOV tag you must cite precises words and sentences that you find not neutral, so everybody can work on it. --BMF81 12:33, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

see the above talk pages Maltesedog 13:12, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Maltesedog: a rearrangment of the article is needed. If the article is too long, we could divide it: a main article about B.'s life and ideas, and two sub-articles about his business and political career (or even a third sub-article about his troubles with justice). I also agree with the POV tags. For re-writing: any native english available for revisioning? We should also be sure that the re-writers are not in the staff of any italian party, in order to avoid troubles. I can be also available to be one of the re-writers. Gala.martin 15:00, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV sections

Ok, according to User:LEGATVSLEGIONIS criticism, I added NPOV tags to the sections he cited. For the sake of clarity, I summarize here the criticism for each section, so we can work on them separately:

The debate about the motives

I can find just some personal opinions and fascinating theories in there. --LEGATVSLEGIONIS

I wrote most of that section. I suppose you refer to the first paragraph, where common point of views of Berlusconi's supporters and opposers are shown:
opposers:

Some critics argued that Berlusconi did it to take care of his own interests, being saving his own companies from bankruptcy and himself from convictions.

supporters:

Instead, Berlusconi's supporters hailed him as the "new man" that was to bring the public bureaucracy to new efficiency and to reform the state from top to bottom; they argued that he was so rich that he would have no interest in using politics to become even richer, and regarding his trials they also argued that just after Berlusconi entered into politics, his opponents tried to get rid of him by a judicial persecution.

It seem to me that those two are very common opinions in Italy, and any italian heard about all of them; I think is necessary to present them, as they are the most spread opinions about Berlusconi. Anyway after these opinions well cited facts are presented: Mediobaca annual report and all investigations of 1992 and 1993.
--BMF81 15:05, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I made a research and just added a source in the "debate about the motives". So should the NPOV dispute on this section be considered fixed?--BMF81 07:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The Berlusconi III Cabinet

About this sentence:

“There have been harsh criticisms on Berlusconi's choices: the ministry of Health, previously occupied by Girolamo Sirchia, a famous doctor, has been given to Francesco Storace, who, only a few weeks earlier, lost the regional elections in Latium. Another controversial move was the nomination of Giulio Tremonti as Vice-Prime Minister. Tremonti had been the Minister of Economy just few years earlier, but was forced to resign. He is strongly supported by the Northern League, but opposed by UDC and AN.”

Not a very neutral point of view…maybe u don’t agree with those Berlusconi’s choises, and u’re free to think what u wanna, but that’s absolutely not an objective fact.--LEGATVSLEGIONIS

I agree with you, this has to be reworded.--BMF81 15:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

In this case, the "fact" is that he was harshly criticised. And this fact is interesting enough to be mentioned. But I agree with BMF81 that it should be reworded. --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Legislative actions

This part have to be expanded to include two of important reforms: the reforms of labour and school systems. --LEGATVSLEGIONIS

Would you write a few words on them? Do it in Italian, I can translate. I would also mention the "testi unici"; while the ordinary citizen doesn't usually see their usefulness, they usually help the affected sector by streamlining the law. --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I have put a request for expansion tag instead of an npov one.--BMF81 21:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Influence on the Media

This sentence it's not neutral:

“Berlusconi's influence over RAI became evident when in Sofia, Bulgaria he expressed his views on the journalists Enzo Biagi, Michele Santoro [13], and comedian Daniele Luttazzi after his satiric behaviour and his interview with journalist Marco Travaglio”.

It's not neutral beacuse it doesn't mention what Michele Santoro and Enzo Biagi did just a little before that election day.--LEGATVSLEGIONIS

It should be mentioned, so the reader can judge if these acts deserved an exile from public television. It should also be mentioned that Marco Travaglio was suffering from a sort of censorship, an no one on TV had the courage to mention his book before Luttazzi did. --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)


I agree that there are some points that can be improved in the article, and its structure, to get more closer both to a NPOV and for a more complete information. But i don't understand the official protest by LEGATVSLEGIONIS, expecially some of the motivations, like at the point: “Berlusconi's influence over RAI became evident when in Sofia, Bulgaria he expressed his views on the journalists Enzo Biagi, Michele Santoro [13], and comedian Daniele Luttazzi after his satiric behaviour and his interview with journalist Marco Travaglio.” LEGATVSLEGIONIS says: “You forgot to say what Michele Santoro and Enzo Biagi did just a little before that election day….i’d love to talk a lot about that, but I could definitely annoy the ones who are reading my reply right now ”.
As we can see, in the disputed piece, of which someone may not like the style, there are no personal judgments by the author, except maybe the sentence “Berlusconi's influence .. become evident.” The main topic of the piece of writing is about personal influence on media; the official protest by LEGATVSLEGIONIS instead, is focused on what the journalists did in their job, meaning that that the Prime Miniester's decison could be right in some way. But the article was about political influence itself, not about the content (right or wrong?) of the action.

A Guest (still non expert about editing in Wikipedia) 0:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Conflicts of interests

It should be said that this problem isn’t recent, and also talk about the reasons why the Left-wing didn’t resolve it, despite they had ruled over italy for several years ‘till 5 years ago. --LEGATVSLEGIONIS

I agree this as to be extended to discuss Left-wing not solving it. There is a excellent book about these faults of the Left: Inciucio, by Marco Travaglio and Peter Gomez.

Whoever wrote the last comment, would you like to write a BRIEF summary of the point made in Inciucio ? --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry I forgot to sign in, It was me :) Unfortunly I don't have the book in these days, so I can't give a exaustive summary; here is what I remember:
In the early 90s, Berlusconi Media group was close to bankroupcy, also because of the competition with the public broadcaster RAI. Berlusconi said to his fellows that the only way out was to make a deal with RAI to end competition (that is to make a cartel), lower costs and quality of programs, and fix audience share to about 45% for both. In 2002, Luciano Violante, a prominent member of the Left, said in a speech in Parliament:
«Onorevole Anedda, la invito a consultare l’onorevole Berlusconi perché lui sa per certo che gli è stata data la garanzia piena, non adesso, nel 1994, quando ci fu il cambio di governo - che non sarebbero state toccate le televisioni. Lo sa lui e lo sa l’onorevole Letta».
Authors of book Inciucio claim that sentence to be an evidence that the Left make a deal with Berlusconi in 1994, promising to not respect a sentence of the Constitutional Court of Italy that required to assign to someone else one of the three tv frequencies used by Belusconi media group, in order to enforce pluralism and competition; this would be an explanation of why the Left, despite of having won the 1996 elections, did't approve a law to solve the conflicts of interests between media ownership and potical career.
--BMF81 08:26, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I added this paragraph to the section and removed the NPOV tag.--BMF81 20:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Sense of Humour

Irrelevant part..sense of humour is one of the most personal and not objective things on the Earth..and then I remember a lot of funnier jokes than the ones cited in the article. I also think that the jokes cited have been chosen to try to show everyone how unliberal Berlusconi is. --LEGATVSLEGIONIS

I agree. This is not a paragraph on his sense of humour (which is very personal), but about his ability to insult almost everyone, even when he doesn't want to. It should be renamed appropriately. --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that the paragraph is as good as possible: unfortunately Berlusconi really said those phrases, and they need to be written somewhere in the article, not to show everyone how unliberal he is, but to show everyone his personality, and what makes many Italian hate him. Maybe we should rename it! Emc² (Contact me ) 16:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Nobody is saying that he has a bad sense of humour, merely a controversial one. I don't see how this isn't NPOV. It clearly is humour, and even if you find it funny, you'd surely have to admit it's controversial? There are probably people out there who'd think Berlusconi is their dream leader for saying things like that. The section should stay, but perhaps renaming is right. How does 'Controversial Jokes' sound? Doesn't imply that all his jokes/humour are controversial, just the ones listed. And I'm a bit new to wikipedia editing - what would be the right way to start the process of removing the NPOV flag on this section? Imran1985 13:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Legal investigations of Berlusconi

This section should also talk a bit about the Italian justice and especially how exactly it works (see also what I said about CSM).--LEGATVSLEGIONIS

About italian judges, if you think it is relevant, you can add some sentence in the paper about the fact that Berlusconi said the judges to be politically driven. Anyway, I think it is a personal statement. If you want to state that italian judges are biased, you need some evidence. Since all the international analysts, as far as I know, never said anything about italian judges, you cannot say that as a truth. If you think there are enough indications to write, as a guess, that they are biased, you can start a discussion about that in this page. --Gala.martin

Yeah, u’re right, I don’t have any evidence, that’s just my personal idea, so i won’t write anything about that on Wikipedia….but maybe those “international analysts” don’t know much about Italy, because half of Italians usually think some judges use their power to attack their political enemy; I could do dozens of different examples, but of course I don’t know if that’s the truth, but it seems the truth….just a question: if an international analyst says that Berlusconi’s daddy was born on Jupiter, can u really think that’s the truth? I believe in the certain prooves, in the facts, and sometimes I’m doubtful about those “international alalysts”--LEGATVSLEGIONIS

  • Personally I'm more willing to trust international analysts than gossip that you say "seems the truth." Oldkinderhook 18:38, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I like proves and fact as well. And, from my point of view, there is no reason to believe italian judges are biased. Anyway, I repeat it once again, if you think you can add some information to this article, please do it.--Gala.martin

As far as I know no international analyst ever said Berlusconi's father is a Jovian... but it certainly would be a claim LESS outlandish than saying that ALL italian judges are biased against Berlusconi. For example, some judges were condemned for having been bribed by Berlusconi's cronies, so we know that at least these judges were biased in his favour ;-) --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Personality

Another irrelevant and not neutral part.--LEGATVSLEGIONIS

Indeed. However, some of the facts mentioned there ought to be moved elsewhere, because they are very interesting. --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Fascism

"On one occasion, Berlusconi claimed that Benito Mussolini had been the greatest statesman in Italian history. On another occasion, Berlusconi stated that "Benito Mussolini's regime hadn't killed a single person" and that Mussolini "just used to send opposers on holiday", thus apparently denying or dismissing a long series of fascist crimes, from the murder of Giacomo Matteotti to the infamous fascist concentration camps (Rab, Gonars, etc) (1). Berlusconi later claimed that he did not mean to white-wash Mussolini, that he only reacted to a comparison, which he felt unfair, between the fascist dictator and Saddam Hussein. Among the members of parliament elected with him is Alessandra Mussolini, grand daughter of Benito. Even when she left his coalition, he tryed (2) in all ways to keep her in it.(3)""

Is (1) an example of bias in action? Is (2) incorrect english? Is (3) a fact? Heard that she had resigned.

kindIn view of the above discussion, consistent throughout the talk page, I would consider revision of the whole article.

As a Maltese, with English being an official Language of Malta, I'm ready to contribute and I am committed to amending English on wikipedia

While (1) is indeed an example of bias, it means that whoever wrote those words is biased in favour of democracy and against fascism. It could be balanced by saying something like "Die-hard supporters of fascism (of whom there are still many in Italy) appreciated these statements by Berlusconi"
(2) is horrible english. I'll fix it.
(3) it is not a proven fact. Berlusconi said he was trying to keep her in, and it seems he succeded. It should be mentioned as something Berlusconi said, and not a proven fact. --Lou Crazy 04:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

In view of the above discussion, consistent throughout the talk page, I would consider revision of the whole article. I totally agree;--LEGATVSLEGIONIS

There is a very important mistake, as far as I know, in this section. The first statement "On one occasion, Berlusconi claimed that Benito Mussolini had been the greatest statesman in Italian history" is not true. The sentence is correct but, as i remember (i'm Italian), was actually proununced in 1994 by Gianfranco Fini , who is the leader of the main allied party in Berlusconi's coalition.
A Guest 00:23, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

O F W H O M T H E R E A R E S T I L L M A N Y I N I T A L Y????????? hey man u must be kidding... there are much more communists than fascists over here and communists have killed millions of people in the recent world history.By the way i'm liberal, not fascist and i wish fascist parties were banned by the Parliament; but the comunist parties (Rifondazione Comunista and Comunisti Italiani) should be banned too but they are in the Left-wing of the parliament...isn't it scandalous?? RC is one of the strongest and biggest communist parties in the entire West and if Prodi will win the next political election they'll be in the next italian government...so how can you be scandalized if Berlusconi tried to create a larger coalition? P.S. some time ago Armando Cossutta (the ex leader of Comunisti Italiani) said that Stalin was one of the best political leaders in the history....no comment LEGATVSLEGIONIS 06:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Rifondazione Comunista and Comunisti Italiani = Eurocommunism, not Communism. --82.56.145.33 15:11, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Vittorio Mangano

i've found other not neutral parts (at least in my opinion) beside the ones i've already mentioned...for example: Vittorio Mangano; if someone, who doesn't know much about italy, reads that part of the article, he can really think berlusconi is a mafioso!! has Berlusconi ever been arrested because of that? how can the first editor of that article seriously write so much about a stable keeper who had been working for berlusconi for some years long time ago???? if his stable keeper was a mafioso, shall i assume that berlusconi is one of the leaders of mafia or what else? and should we write, on this encliclopedya,something about all his employees?? --User:LEGATVSLEGIONIS|LEGATVSLEGIONIS

I disagree definitly with you in this point. There are millions of people in Italy who are disturbed by the fact that a prime minister has mafious friends. The Mangano affair was great scandal in Italy and held the opening page on newspapers for days in year 2001, as i remember. Mangano was not a simple mafouis, he was called by judges "a Boss" and the main contact of Cosa Nostra in Northern Italy. Btw this was not the only case of mafiosi related to Berlusconi: the closest friend of Berlusconi Marcello dell'Utri , that many consider the man who contributed in creating his fortune (by obtaining founds in the early years of Berlusconi's building activities), has in fact been convicted for mafia crimes. (A Guest)

Sources and opinions on Wikipedia

now i'd like talking about another important fact; BMF81 said: I wrote most of that section. I suppose you refer to the first paragraph, where common point of views of Berlusconi's supporters and opposers are shown: opposers: Some critics argued that Berlusconi did it to take care of his own interests, being saving his own companies from bankruptcy and himself from convictions. supporters: Instead, Berlusconi's supporters hailed him as the "new man" that was to bring the public bureaucracy to new efficiency and to reform the state from top to bottom; they argued that he was so rich that he would have no interest in using politics to become even richer, and regarding his trials they also argued that just after Berlusconi entered into politics, his opponents tried to get rid of him by a judicial persecution. It seem to me that those two are very common opinions in Italy, and any italian heard about all of them; I think is necessary to present them, as they are the most spread opinions about Berlusconi. Anyway after these opinions well cited facts are presented: Mediobaca annual report and all investigations of 1992 and 1993.

well i've always thought opinions didn't have to be mentioned in an enciclopedya; i'd like to mention just the facts, not the opinions; but if you like the opinions so much, how come didn't you say a word about what the berlusconi's supporters think about the italian Justice? Legal investigations of Berlusconi is a long part in the article; u should have written another LONG section about the italian Justice with the point of view of berlusconi's supporters. I think we don't have to mention any opinions, just the facts; and if you all don't agree with me, then we ought to write ALL the opinions LEGATVSLEGIONIS 22:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I respect your opinion of totally excluding any opinion from the encyclopedia, most wikipedians don't agree with it. I believe that the important thing is to clearly distinguish opinions from facts, so every reader can make his own judgement with a complete vision of the matter. Take a look at President Bush' article, at the sections Political ideology and Administration: there you can find some supporters and critics opinions. The most relevant opinions have to be included in order to give a complete coverege of a issue, the important thing is to say that they are opinions and (again) clearly distinguish them from facts.--BMF81 00:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

oh, well, so opinions have to be included...but where to find the sources for those opinions?and how can i be sure of them? maybe some opinions are just the editor's opinions, not general ones if you know what i mean; by the way i don't know much about that debat of the included or not included opinions: it's my fault...nevertheless if opinions have to be included, i'd like to write a long section on the Italian Justice with the point of view of Berlusconi's supporters even if i'd like to talk with you all on irc or msn first. By the way i'm not a member of Forza Italia or House of Freedom, don't be worry about that :) of course i'm a berlusconi's supporter but i'll feel free to vote for someone else if i won't trust him anymore LEGATVSLEGIONIS 06:56, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

You addressed the central problem of course: "maybe some opinions are just the editor's opinions", in other words is necessary to cite sources. For what I saw so far in the english wikipedia, sometimes happens that one of the editors adds an opinion without citing sources, because he thinks that is well know (in other words, that is "common knowledge"). This is ok as long there is no other editor that disagrees with it being common knowledge, and ask to provide a source.
Now, speaking about the section "the debate about the motives", I tried to summarize the most relevant opinions that I know about that matter: I've been a Berlusconi' supporter from 1997 to 2003 (I even had a Forza Italia subscription for one year), and than I read many books and articles of indipendent right-wing journalist Marco Travaglio, so I know about the main arguments of that debate. But, if you think some of the opinions I wrote there are kind of "made up", you are more than welcome to ask for a source to be cited. (If you want to see something negative I wrote about the Left, take a look at this)--BMF81 09:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


By the way when i've said: i don't know much about that debat of the included or not included opinions i meant that debate between the ones who'd love to exclude any opinions from wikipedia and the ones who don't agree; of course i've heard of those opinions that u've mentioned in the debate about the motives; nevertheless what is a good source in your opinion? can everything on the net be used as a source? if someone is a lier and he starts inventing and writting something on the net, is it a good source??? and talking about the opinions, they usually had been created by the political parties themselves in my opinion and through the media, they became the opinions of some political parties' supporters; so maybe if we wanna mention the most relevant opinions, we ought to mention what several political leaders had said ( the sources would be the official sites of some political parties) LEGATVSLEGIONIS 09:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that we can't "use everything on the net as a source". We can take as a sources printed materials (books, newspapers, etc.), and some of the most notable sites (like the sites of political parties, political insitutions, BBC, CNN, etc.). Of course is always important to say who say what, so every reader can also judge on the basis of the source. We can't rely only on poiltical parties declarations, since also the opinion of independent commentators (journalist, scholars, etc.) its very important. PS. I made a research and just added a source in the "debate about the motives".--BMF81 11:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
In Italian Wikipedia I'm making it and I'm following two books very well documented (see talk pages). --Ilario 13:43, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Concensus on NPOV

Now that many agree that the article should be rewritten in a NPOV, we should outline how shall we proceed with this, without leaving anything out and using reputable sources, and citing the sources. Maltesedog 11:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think that the article needn't be rewritten from scratch, but the disputed sections should be amended. I don't see such a big consensus as you said... --Lou Crazy 23:44, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

i think that the article should absolutely be rewritten: in my opinion its structure's not balanced at all if you know what i mean;it should be divided into 3 large sections:

1) proven things only: a short biography, political career, legislative actions and so on 2) POV of the ones who don't trust Berlusconi: Controversial facts ( for example Mangano), legal investigations---->many investigations have been achieved, other ones are still in progress and so its not proven that Berlusconi is a criminal ---> that's why we should create this section 3) POV of the Berlusconi's supporters ---> strong connection between politics and some judges plus a short history of that connection

By the way if you all are honest with yourselves, you'd have to admit that the article should be rewritten; but if you don't agree with me, no problem, although everyone, who's searching for something on Berlusconi on Wikipedia, can't consider that article as a good source in my opinion LEGATVSLEGIONIS 06:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Lou, instead of rewriting it from scratch, I'd rather make step by spep changes; I think this approch helps in reaching consensus. After each section is neutral, we could consider moving some of them. --BMF81 07:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree - in my opinion, a step-by-step process would be the best route to follow. I would also point at the BBC as a reliable source of information: no links unless necessary, of course, but their BBC News online service maintains good coverage on the subject of Berlusconi, his profile as a Prime Minister/VIP, and excerpts of his speeches. Might be worth checking here and there, since it's already featured in the Italian version of his profile. --Dark Schneider 11:50, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I rewritten the intro trying to reach NPOV. I know it's long but hopefully some parts of the controversy issues will eventually be moved to separate articles so in the end the whole article will be shorter... possibly... however the article about Tony Blair is 80kb long, it's not that this article is so terribly long, it's just very poor and biased, and unfortunately it has become much worse since the last time I read it months ago. Massimamanno 6:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have done minor edits to this version of the intro (as I previously did to other sections) but only to improve the English. It still does not seem very encyclopedic and the assertions about the left and right POVs are vague and general rather than well supported. And, even in Italy, the issues are not L<>R. The summary surely needs to attempt to flag later more detailed explanations about why he is such a controversial personaility? A fuller breakdown later about his politics, properly referenced so that the perspectives of all sides are explored (as opposed to characterised almost stereotypically) is still needed to make this article - or articles - more balanced and accurately-informative--farsee50 10:42, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

LEGATVSLEGIONIS

I move that LEGATVSLEGIONIS stop posting on this discussion board, because his contributions are all absurdly biased and unsubstantiated opinions. Oldkinderhook 18:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I feel you want to bring to silence LEGATVSLEGIONIS because you don't like his comments because he is not anti-B! Freedom of speech is never allowed either to Mr.B or his supporters. Thier words are always too long or off topic. DWDP 5 April 2006

Berlusconi lol

http://www.wimp.com/minister/

News tidbit

Just read this at EUbusiness—should probably be included in the article, but I'm not sure where exactly...? Help appreciated. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 06:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Glossy brochere

I'm a bit surprised that the ~150 page glossy brochure he/his party produced advertising him which was criticised by Bono for misusing his image doesn't appear to have been mentioned Nil Einne 22:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


Term of office

In the frame at the top right it stands: 27 April 1994 —22 December 1994

And in the bottom frame it stands: Prime Minister of Italy 1994–1995 Dl 10:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Please NPOV

I've deleted the term "infamous" for the concentration camps en:Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid. All concentration camps were infamous not only those of fascists. --Ilario 17:56, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Imbalance in article lenghts: Berlie and Prodi

It is strange that the article on R. Prodi is very short and Berlusconi is this long. The "Professor" is 100x more intelligent and professional than this oligarch and should deserve a better write-up! Hopefully S.B. will be out by late monday, he is a shame of the EU, just like the Austrian neo-nazi government was a shame of the EU. 195.70.32.136 08:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you post this request on Talk:Romano Prodi? --Army1987 16:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

The important thing now is that Prodi is Premier and Berlusoni is OUT!!!!!!!!!!! YeAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!! Buona notte, scellerato landruncolo!!--Lacatosias 14:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Please remember that the purpose of the discussion page is to discuss the article, not politics. If you think that the article on Berlusconi is too long, shorten it or subdivide it, or suggest modifications here. If you think the article on Prodi is to short, expand it, or find a knowledgeable person to do that. Aleph4 18:09, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


Al;so, Prodi is internationally respected, and has done a lot for Italy (its best period EVER in modern history was when Prodi was Prime Minister) Berlusconi is an international embarrassment for Italy- a clown.

Ides of April:

Ceasar: "The Ides of April have come for Silvio old man."

Old man: "Aye, but not gone!". --Lacatosias 09:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


Silvio's Current Status

He may/may not be the Prime Minister of Italy for much longer but he will remain in his post at least until the election of a new President in mid-May 2006. Can we retain the use of "current" and not "former" PM in the first paragraph of the article until(or if) there is a change of government?? In the interests of fact and not supposition. --Kingsbury 18:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. User:Merlov 11:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

nNPOV section

In the "Influence on the media" iI've changed the position of template because the first sentences are neutral how you can see in the statistics. It isn't our task to judge them. --Ilario 15:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


It is known that Silvio Berlusconi has a very high opinion of himself, at times comparing himself to Napoleon [21], Churchill [22] and Jesus Christ [23][24].

Please do not feed the TrollsPer favore, non date da mangiare ai troll
Please do not feed the Trolls
Per favore, non date da mangiare ai troll

I dont think its objective to write,he never comapred himself to Jesus Christ.Dzoni 08:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

He did. (He said something like "I'm the Jesus Christ of Italian politics, I'm a patient victim like him".)--Army1987 10:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well,that is the truth,you can see for yourself how dirty communistas stole the elections abroad.IF they were as honest as Berlu,they would never win,so he is a patient victimDzoni 00:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If you really believe that, you need treatment; what you have is called paranoia. Italy's communists are far more mainstream in politics than the neo-fascists in Berlusconi's coalition, and besides, if anyone had the opportunity to cheat, it would have been the party to which the interior minister belonged. ;) Face it: Berlusconi lost, barely, but he lost. —Nightstallion (?) Seen this already? 10:51, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
If they were as honest as Berlu they would have been jailed.--Pokipsy76 11:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Lol "neo-fascistas",we are not "Neo" nothing,we are true Fascistas,true Patriots,but you have to be honest,neo-communists would rather steal the election then Fascists.Because,no normal man can imagine Alessandra Mussolini cheating on the election,because Alternativa Sociale is the most honourable party in Italia and wider.Comunistas stole the election and as Berlu said:"Im still a prime minister,and Im planning to stay,me ne frego what they think".Dzoni 11:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Really? No one can imagine Alessandra "Better to be a fascist than a faggot" Mussolini trying to run off with an election?
Who are you and how is it that you are allowed to vote? Wally 23:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Where's the evidence that the Italian Communist Party rigged the election? Provide it, or withdraw that accusation. We are here to provide information, not unsubstanciated defamation!

The Independent has different conclusions regarding the election: That "The Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's hopes that a recount of disputed ballot papers would overturn his narrow loss in the recent general election were dashed yesterday when his government was forced to admit there were too few contested votes cast to change the outcome.

The Italian interior ministry's acknowledgement that the number of ballots in question for the lower house of parliament was not near enough to overturn his rival Romano Prodi's 24,000-vote majority discredited Mr Berlusconi's claim that he lost to Mr Prodi through "cheating"."(1) no mention of the ICP cheating, only discredited allegations by the PM.

(1)http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article357786.ece User:Merlov 10:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


E meglio essere un fascista che un frocio,thats 100 precento true.As for Prodis dirty little games,just look on how they took Diaspora votes,that should belonged to us.

Prodi is a communista and there is no place for a man like that in todays Europe,he would fit well in Stalins Russia or Maos China(that hes so protective of).If he likes communismo so much,he may go to Cuba,because its clear people of Italia dont want him.

He should have accepted great coalition proposal that Berlu made,because now he will just have to stay in opposition for another 5 years.Dumb communistaDzoni 16:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


You're one of those the world would be much better without. I'll tell you. much better be gay than fascist- at leat my conscience is clear- you're just horribl;e bigots, ignoramuses and want to impose your way of life on others. The whoe civilised world is pleased Berlusconi is out of the way. In the UK the BBC saluted Berlusconi's election with these words,' In the uk, he would be in prison, in Italy, he's the Prime Minister'. By the way- your views go are discriminatory, therefore I would just like to know who you are to sue you and get you your deserved fine/community service/8 months in prison, whichever, only you're a coward and won't stand up for your own bigoted ideas. Lots of gay people paid (were even murdered by people like you!!!) for who they happened to be,and in bigoted places like most of Italy, they still are, you won't even want to pay for who you choose to ba and wht you choose to believe in- thatnks god Berlusconi's out of the way- MUCH BETTER BE GAY THAN FASCIST!!!!!!!!!!!!

Berlusconi got to power through huge and technically illegal advertising (still tried this way round), therefore cheating, through making impossible promises (1 million jobs- yes lost!!!! Get the frigging numbers right!!! Italy's had NO GROWTH AT ALL during Berlusconi's government- its best period of growth under Prodi), by colluding with tax evasors (never mentioned evading tax- Italy's biggest problem, but hey, he evades himself!!!!) and convincing people with low IQs and low education.

In 5 years time, Berlusconi won't be running for PM, he'll be in prison very likely- or run a way as his friend Craxi did (using Berlusconi' jet, by the way- that's another crime of his- helping criminals escape justice).

he's so pthetic he can't even admit he's clown till the end!!!!!!


Libro e moschetto - fascista perfetto,and Im not talking to faggots,so faggot just be queit or Ima do what Paolo DI Canio would done to you.Duxxx haha.

AS for the other ragazzo that saqid that Berlu is a criminal,well tell me this:ISNT A PRODI A GREATER CRIMINAL BY FAR???HES THE ONE WHO STOL THE DIASPRA VOTES FOR GODS SAKE!!!!


And tell me this,but please be 100 precent honest:Can you even imagine Alessandra Mussolini doing anything that is illegal.Because no party is so strong supportiv of laws as ALTERNATIVA S.Dzoni 01:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[Slight OT] It's quite astonishing that a sentence such as "better a fascist than a faggot" sounds like a ridiculization of someone else's arguments for straw man purpose but is a real argument and most times I've heard it pronounced it was by someone who agrees with it and says they voted for La Casa Delle Libertà. (BTW, I'm not adfirming that a gay is necessarily better than a fascist, IMO such comparisons between groups of people are quite meaningless. But, as far as politics is concerned, we should vote for people according to their political ideas, rather than to their sexual preferences.) I've also had a conversation like this: —I voted I Verdi, what about you? — I voted Forza Italia, but how could you vote for a party in a coalition with a party with a transgender such as Luxuria as a candidate? —Are you saying it's better to vote for a party full of mafiosi? —Better a mafioso than a faggot, for sure. And the "I'm not talking to faggots" argument IMO is BS, I'm not personally offended by it as I'm an heterosexual, but I think offending homosexual this way is unjust. Anyway, this is not the place for discussing wheter Prodi stole the elections, not wheter a fascist is better than a homosexual...--Army1987 15:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


I could never ever vote for communists,and one thing you can not deny:FASCISTAS WERE NEVER THIEFS,YOU KNOW ALESSANDRA SHOWED TO BE HONEST PERSON MANY MANY TIMES.

Really? [11] Do you remember? --Army1987 17:28, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The fascists were murderers and liberticides. Ci mancava soltanto che fossero anche ladri.
That said, Berlusconi, whatever faults he may have, is not a fascist, so I don't see the relevance of this discussion. --Trovatore 17:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Apparently this discussion started about wheter the fascists in Alternativa Sociale are better than faggots in L'Unione. (Luckily we're not seriously discussing about the latter yet.) I guess we'd better stop feeding the troll. --Army1987 17:39, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I KNOW,Berlu is not perfect,but still,hes way better then those frocios and communistas that are about to come to power(if we dont stop them)Dzoni 04:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


Actually, Mussoline sneaked what were at the time 20Milllion Lirae (billions now) of Italian gold to Switzerland- we never got it back. I call this thieving...


it's just ridiculous and outrageous that gay people can be discriminated against on Wikipedia- Apologiia di Fascismo is a crime in Italy, being Gay is not, for a start. So if someone should noty speak, those are the fascists. Can these insults be edited and the discriminator be banned? That's the least Wikipedia can do for Equal opportunities.
I think we should allow everybody to express their opinion, at least on talk pages. But I do agree the latter 17:34 comment is a personal attack. --Army1987 18:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


There's quite a clear difference between expressing opinions and threatening gay people with castaration (this is what XCazzoni or whatever his Fascist nam,e is is suggesting with reference to what Fascists used to do). Does freedom of opinion include harrassment? Threat? Psychological torture? Freemdom of speech - yes I do believe in it, unlike Cazzoni, but there is a clear distinction between freedom of opinion and freedom of insult, threat and harrassment- until we understand that, Cazzoni and others like him will 'abuse' the democratic rights that anti-Fascism has created to promote Fascism against those very rights. Not much freedom of Opinion in Berlusconi's Italy it seems... How many journalists did he sack? Thanks god Berlusconi e' fuori dai ...., a pathetic loser as well, not even a grain of dignity. Maybe now democracy will go back to Italy. Mr Cazzoni should find an island where all intolerant Cazzonis like him could live together (well for a short time,. as they would soon start killing each others off, as they are intilerant...)

You dont actualy believe that bullshit that you are saying......Alessandra is not a rich woman,shes a HONEST,HARD WORKIN FASCISTA,so please dont trust that communistas propaganda tricksDzoni 17:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


p.s.Frocio,you better shut up and stop raising your voice for faggot rights,or Im going to look for you and Im going to bring Di Canio with me:)))Dzoni 17:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC) Read WP:NPA please.--Army1987 18:19, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


I red it,thank you very much Army,but I just cant stand frocios,I hate them,hate themDzoni 02:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

SO what? Sorry for you- you lose here as well- gay people have a right to speak. You have no right to deny that right- full stop.

lameduck

I added the notation that Berlusconi is currently the lameduck pm. But actually I'm not so sure; how does it work? Certainly Prodi is not yet pm. But is Berlusconi still pm, or is there just not one at the moment? --Trovatore 08:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Berlusconi is still a prime minister,Prodi is still a oposition communista politicianDzoni 08:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Berlusconi is still formally the prime minister, Prodi is to be nominated pm in late May by the person who will succeed Carlo Azelio Ciampi as President of the Italian Republic. Anyway, only the executive is retained, the legislature is already in the newly elected parliament's hands, AFAIK.--Army1987 15:11, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
The argument that Berlusconi is a lame duck is still somewhat premature. May is a long time away, and he's not ready to call it quits. He may be able to pull off some unlikely coup (metaphorical or otherwise) and secure control after all, however unlikely that may be. In any event until this is a settled question there can be no lame duck. Wally 23:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
He probably shouldn't be called a lame duck until he concedes. john k 00:51, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Y'all have a point. Do what you think is best. --Trovatore 02:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

He can't make any new decisions while the post-election outcome, of the government, must be resolved. He's in 'caretaker' mode, as it's called in Parliamentary govt. systems, not allowed to change govt. policy, etc. We could probably instert 'caretaker' until the outcome is decided. User:Merlov 10:46 19 April 2006 (UTC)

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