Talk:Silesian

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See also" Talk:Silesian language and Talk:Silesian language/Delete for other discussions


Okay, I've based my creation of the two pages, Upper Silesian and Lower Silesian language on the Ethnologue report for both. I also looked at the UNESCO red book of languages and no Silesian language was listed, so it was little or no help.

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=SLI
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=PQL

I'm willing to discuss the possibility that Upper Silesian or whatever you want to call it is a separate Slavic language rather than a dialect of Polish, but for now, please leave the page here while we discuss it -- I think we can figure out the appropriate name for the English Wikipedia page along the way (bear in mind that the name may be different in English than it is locally in Poland, Germany, etc.). I have no credible neutral sources of information except for Ethnologue so that would be useful here. I'm tired of watching people from the general region go back and forth at each other about whether this or that is a language or a dialect, so it has to be a credible neutral source. Daniel Quinlan 00:00, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

Here a list of hints

Contents

[edit] 1. Silesian is a Polish dialect

At http://www.haus.pl/de/presse/presse38.html (house of German-Polish cooperation, in German) the interviewer says, that she does not know any linguist, who would say, Silesian is a language. Instead it is a dialect. The interviewed person, leader of the Silesian independece movement Kluczniok says it is, but he knows that linguists do not have found an agreement wheater it is a language or not. I doubt he is more independent than the interviewer. In the interview it is not definitely said, wheater Silesian is germanic or slavic, but I assume from the way Kluczniok argues, the Polish "dialect" is meant, because he argues wheater he speaks Polish or Silesian. Furthermore, I speak German and have been to Poland's Silesia and everbody for me spoke Polish.

[edit] 2. Silesian is a German dialect

At http://www.kmosler.de/Sprache/Woerterlisten/OS-Woerter.html a word list of "Oberschlesisch" can be found. It obviously consists of german words, just with a little change in orthography. "Oberschlesisch" literally means "Upper Silesian". At http://www.parlinkom.gv.at/pd/pad/kb/kb01304.html it is said, that Robert Preußler wrote poetry in "deutsch-schlesischer Mundart" (literally: "German-Silesian dialect"). I.e. at http://www.ullstein-realschule-fuerth.de/unterricht/lernzirkel_hauptmann/lehr-info3.html it is said, that Hauptmann wrote texts in "schlesische Mundart" (silesian dialect). In Germany everbody has to read the uneasy readable, but German dialect, written by Hauptmann.

--> At least in German the term "Silesian dialect" seems to stand both for the German and the Polish regional dialect. The German Silesian dialect definitely is not a language, because it is unterstandable as every other German dialects I know. In case of the Polish Silesian dialect I can't say so, since I don't speak Polish. But, the interview gave me the impression, that "Silesian Language" is used by the Silesian independent movement, but not by linguists.

I propose the following entries:

  1. Silesian Language: No WP-Entry, since it does not seem to exist.
  2. Silesian Dialect: Page that describes that there is a german-silesian and a polish-silesian dialect, which are linkes.
  3. Polish-Silesian Dialect: Page about the dialect spoken in Silesia today.
  4. German-Silesian Dialect: Page about the nearly died off german language formerly spoken in Silesia when it belonged to Germany.

Steven 82.82.117.221 03:09, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Steven, I completely disagree based on what I have read.

  1. Silesian language should redirect to Silesian (and it does)
  2. Silesian dialect could be a redirect to Silesian if it is necessary at all, I don't think it is necessary
  3. Polish-Silesian is a non-NPOV title and should just redirect to Silesian (and it does)
  4. German-Silesian seems the same as Lower Silesian which already exists as a page. Perhaps we should rename that article (I suspect more and more that Ethnologue is very confused about these two things) and just add to the content if we actually had more substantial material than the Ethnologue entry.

Daniel Quinlan 05:46, Nov 4, 2003 (UTC)

No, in german Schlesisch (literally Silesian) is the generic term of literally translated Upper and Lower Silesian. Since Lower Silesia was much bigger and sometimes was called just Schlesien (without Lower), the term sometimes was not Niederschlesisch but Schlesisch.

Okay, everyone seems to agree that Lower Silesian is a dialect rather than a language, so I switched the page around so it's located at Lower Silesian. Please check the page for any necessary corrections. Daniel Quinlan 16:23, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

Upper and Lower Silesia are historic areas in Poland. In both german was and polish is the used language. It is nonsense to call Upper Silesian a polish dialect and Lower Silesian a german dialect, since both terms stand both for a german and a polish dialect as I already posted. There are 4 (!) dialects, two german and two polish ones. I have Silesian relatives as I already told, and my father lived in Poland until about 1958. IF in english your distinction reallys is used by linguists, then both polish and german people would doubt it, because viewed from both perspectives, Lower and Upper Silesian are dialects of their languages and the distinction between a polish Upper Silesian and a german Lower Silesian has nothing in common with historical facts. Steven 82.82.117.221 12:39, 4 Nov 2003 (UTC)

To be consequent: "Silesian language" should be used instead of "Silesian", like "English language" or "French language".

Steven, you still have not explained what the second german dialect and the second polish dialect are nor have you provided any source that indicates the need for more than two pages. Daniel Quinlan 16:23, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] 4 Silesian ethnolects or tongues

In my opinion there are 4 ethnnolects or tongues that are called Silesian:

  • Silesian language, a Western Slavonic language spoken by the Silesian people, in half way between Polish and Czech languages, with some German influences;
  • Upper Silesian dialect of Polish language spoken by the Polish people living in Upper Silesia, in half way between Polish standard and the Silesian language;
  • Lower Silesian dialect of Polish language belonging to the so called new mixed dialects spoken by the Polish people in Lower Silesia;
  • Lower Silesian dialect of German language mostly extinct, but possibly spoken by the German minority in Polish Silesia

I don't know if there is/was also an Upper Silesian dialect of German. CC, 23:50, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

Questions:
  • Are the first three really entirely different? Do they belong in separate articles or is there a continuum between the three?
Answer: They are similar, all Slavonic languages are similar
  • Are there any neutral documents or web pages describing these dialects and languages? It would be nice to have sources that were more indendent than various Silesian movements.
Answer: Books on the Silesian language(s): http://www.herder.uni-marburg.de/cgi-bin/acwww25/regsrch.pl?wert=jezyk+slaski+*&recnums=52073:61422:73836:82391:83931:83937:88237:88539:91801:92090:93702&index=4&db=bibl_p
One of the books seem to be promising: Hentschel, Gerd, Das Schlesische - eine neue (oder auch nicht neue) slavische Sprache? (=The Silesian, a new (or not new) Slavonic language?)
  • Are upper and lower really different today?
Daniel Quinlan 00:03, Nov 7, 2003 (UTC)
Answer: Mixed dialects of Polish in western Poland (inc. Lower Silesia) are simply a mixture of all Polish dialects (because of the post-WWI mass migrations from all Polish provinces) and today they are nearly the same to the standard literary Polish. The speech of the people in Upper Silesia is a mixture of standard Polish, local Silesian dialects and German. Silesian people want to learn more Polish. And Polish people in Silesia want to lear more Silesian

It is possible that every person speaks another mixture of Silesian and Polish.

My friend from Silesia told me that he knows 3 languages: Silesian, Polish and German. Silesian was the basic language used at home so he learned Silesian from his parents and relatives. He learned Polish at school. And he also learned German, because his parents spoke in Silesian, but were quarelling in German, and they wanted to prevent their children from understanding what the quarell is about. CC

My suggestions are:
Silesian language about the Silesian language
Lower Silesian (of German language) about Lower Silesian of German
Lower Silesian (of Polish language) about Lower Silesian of Polish
Upper Silesian (of Polish language) about Upper Silesian of Polish

Silesian - disambiguation page
Lower Silesian - disambiguation page
Upper Silesian - disambiguation page

CC, 23:50, Nov 6, 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, but the article is a bunch of rubbish. I suppose that vast majority of Silesians could be extremally suprised that in Silesia are two different Siliesian languages. There are a few spoken versions of Silesian (for example from Opole, Katowice or Cieszyn) but creation of separate language from some of them is really ridiculous idea. I am really curious opinion of linguists about artificial creation of two versions of Silesian: a dialect and a separate language.

Even German authorities of Silesia (untill 1918) regarded Silesian as a Polish dialect. As told a Silesian linguist, prof. Miodek, "the only formal version of Silesian is... the standard Polish" and "Silesian is the most archaic and the most clear of the Polish dialects". Differences between Silesian and the standard version of Polish are not bigger than between standard Polish and any other of the Polish dialects.

This is not a matter of proof, but of classification. Some linguists classify Slovak, Belarussian and Ukrainian as dialects of the Polish language. Macedonian language is sometimes classsfied as a dialect of Bulgarian. Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian are sometimes classified as one language Serb-Croatian.
The roots of the Silesian language are in the 16th century, when the books in local offices were held in the Silesian dialect, that cannot be classified as Polish or Czech. -- CC, 12:35, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)
No, it's polish dialect. Silesia writers from XV, XVI and XVII century Szymon Pastorius, Olbrycht Strumienski, Walenty Rozdzieński wrote IN POLISH (in silesian dialect). Please read more. Though german nationalism and destroying polish humanity.

I can not agree with you. Not all classifications could be taken serious. Please, give me description of differences between Polish dialect - Upper Silesian and Silesian language. I suppose it would be difficult for you. The article is misleading and ridiculous. I dont mind if Silesian is described as a separate language. It is a problem of classification. But creation of a Silesian language separate form "Upper Silesian Poilsh dialect" has no point and no founds. If I am wrong give me bibliography or in other way support you controversial thesis. I think that the article should be reedited.


The thesis that Silesian is not inteligible with Polish is not strict: 1. In this case we talk about literary version of the language only. Polish has many dialects, which are more or less different from each other. 2. Average Polish speaker who is able to speak everyday language is able to understand Silesian without difficulties. For exmple for me more dificult to understand is dialect of Polish higlanders from Podhale, or Zywiec area. 3. The versions of the dialect can differetiate. For example, some persons tend to use more German words even if there are Silesian words which can be used instead. On the same basis some people from Warsaw or Poznan area could say anything making his statement extremally difficult to understant by someone who speak literary Polish only. 4. Huge majority of Silesian speakers consider Silesian a dialect of Polish. Yeti 21:23, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

Silesian language is only a dialect. Polish dilect. It has polish grammar and inflection. It has only another articulation and german-loan. But loans had too cestina, polish and kashubian. hungarius

Cieszyn Silesian is not Upper Silesian. You can say that language is evolving all the time, can't you? So what do you think, over 150 years of separate between Cieszyn Silesia and rest of (nowadays so called) Upper Silesia (btw. Cieszyn Silesian, so called "Cieszyniok" or "Cesarok" would never said that he lives in Upper Silesia !!!) had any influence on changes between Cieszyn Silesian and Upper Silesian? YES, so big that sometimes Cieszyn Silesian can't understand Upper Silesian... I don't have to underline again that Cieszyn Silesians feel distinct, unconnected to Upper Silesians, have I? D T G 21:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silesian Wikipedia proposal

The creation of a Wikipedia in the Silesian dialect/language/whatever has been proposed. See: meta:Requests for new languages if you want to vote for or against it. Ausir 16:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

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