Talk:Silesia

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Earlier discussion:

Contents

[edit] Proposal for neutral article version

I placed a new version of this article on User:Baldhur/Silesia. I tried to find a middle course for every major conflict here, although that is not always easy. Please tell me what you think about this revision and if you could imagine to replace the current article with that version. -- Baldhur 15:31, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Looking mostly at the intro, the first two paragraphs are fine. The third paragraph is pretty useless, and in pretty poorly written English in parts. I'd also say that at least some brief discussion of the history of Silesia ought to be included in the introduction. I also don't like the timeline in the history section. john 20:39, 2 Jan 2004 (UTC)
That third paragraph is copied from the article in its current revision. But I would agree with deleting it. I took the history out of the introduction because every proposal was rejected by someone. The timeline was introduced by me to give a brief overview, because the history sections became so long. I thought it would be a good idea to take the most important dates out of the following paragraphs.
As for "poorly written English": please feel free to edit and improve that page. -- Baldhur 00:04, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I know of course that the version is not perfect. So let me reword my question: What do you think about unprotecting the Silesia article, taking the version from User:Baldhur/Silesia as a provisional version, and then editing it in order to make a good article. If you oppose this proceeding, then I would be interested to hear how to go on in your opinion. Should this article remain protected forever? The discussion on this page has died away, our moderator disappeared, and the interest in this page has faded. So is my proposal a possible way to proceed or not? -- Baldhur 11:35, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I like your version, except those language issues which John points out, but I'm sure he will help with that. Nico 02:51, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I buy it. Space Cadet 03:18, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

But: I agree with John that an outline of the history maybe should be mentioned and that the third paragraph is useless. How about this? Nico 03:33, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Silesia (Polish Śląsk, German Schlesien, Czech Slezsko) is an historic region in east-central Europe, located along the upper and middle Oder (Odra) River and along the Sudeten mountains. It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, but with a small part in the Czech Republic, and another small region, which only became part of Silesia in 1815, in Germany. It was originally a Polish province that became a possession of the Bohemian crown and passed with that crown to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526. In 1742 most of Silesia was seized by Frederick the Great of Prussia in the War of the Austrian Succession. This part of Silesia composed the Prussian provinces Upper- and Lower Silesia until 1945, when most of Silesia was annexed by Poland. In a local Silesian language or dialect Silesia is also called S´lonsk.

The Polish portion of Silesia, which forms the bulk of the historic region, is now divided into the voivodships of Lower Silesian Voivodship, Opole Voivodship and Silesian Voivodship. The small portion in the Czech Republic is joined with Moravia to form the Moravian-Silesian Region of that country, while the Görlitz area now is a part of the German state of Saxony. The largest city of Silesia is Wroclaw (German Breslau).

In a local, not the local language or dialect because only a quite small minority of the Polish Silesians actually use this dialect.

And why is it so important to have the history in the introduction? I left any historical event deliberately out. Taking it back inside will only lead to new trouble.
As for the Silesian language or dialect or whatever, I don't have enough knowledge about this subject. Britannica calls it a dialect of Polish language. But I don't think that it is ambiguous, because the former German-Silesian dialect is now (almost) extinct.
Probably we should take it out of the first paragraph and mention it somewhere else, if necessary. -- Baldhur 15:53, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
It's important to have history in the introduction because the history of the region is very complex, and some basic understanding of it ought to be present before you get to the table of contents. john 18:51, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I object to "annexed" phrase. Kpjas
How about "became part of Poland"? john 21:05, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Fine. Kpjas

Baldhur's version looks better than the "protected" version. Even if it's not perfect, and even if it raises new objections from some contributors, I think we should use it. Should we vote on this? Should we even vote on "un-protecting" the article? --Uncle Ed 19:35, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I would support unprotection. The most intractable user involved in this discussion seems to have left Wikipedia. I think the rest of us can probably work it out without too much acrimony...but who knows? john 19:55, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)
You know my opinion. It is time for unprotection. I am a little bit concerned about the users who did not participate in this discussion because they were the major problem in the past. Please don't let pass too much time after unprotection and quickly start to replace the current version with my or another better version. I fear the reversion warriors lie in wait for the moment of unprotection. -- Baldhur 21:00, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Count me in Szopen

Well, what if we (a) unprotect the Silesia article and (b) replace it with Baldhur's version? Then, if anyone has problems with one or more specific sections, we can delete those sections from the new article, move them to talk, and pick up the debate again.

If enough of us agree to the process, we can leave the article unprotected from now on, and work together in the talk page to iron out the differences.

I daresay most of the differences will be over how to describe the conflict between German and Polish ways of looking at the history of borders and place names. But in any case, the solution we can all agree on is to say that Group X largely regards it this way, while Group Y sees it that way... --Uncle Ed 21:43, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree with replacing the current version with Baldhur's. But I would like to emphasize that the nature of the past problems was never "the conflict between German and Polish ways of looking at the history of borders and place names". Let's not simplify complex things and let's avoid labeling. No contributors are required to state their nationality, and even if they declare it, it should not be a factor of their reliability. Besides, I don't recall anybody openly labeling himself as German in this discussion since User:H.J. So Ed, do not place this thing in a drawer "Polish-German antagonism", because I would never contribute to something like that. --Space Cadet 22:22, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree with every sentence. I don't see myself involved in a conflict Germans vs. Poles here. -- Baldhur 09:07, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Sorry about the over-simplification. It's partly because of my inability to really grasp the issues here, that I'm not contributing to the article. I hope that despite this "drawer incident" I can still be of some help mediating the article creation process; if not, my resignation is ready... :-( --Uncle Ed 16:28, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
There is no need for you to apologise, and noone of us felt offended. Of course you can be helpful.
I think everybody here has now agreed with unprotection and replacement, so let's do it, okay? -- Baldhur 18:13, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Unprotected. --Uncle Ed 21:15, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Thank you Ed. I just replaced the article with my version. Please, everyone should feel encouraged to improve it. -- Baldhur 21:23, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Great! Are we doing "Gdansk" next?Space Cadet 21:59, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've changed about Baldhur's version to add in history and remove the third paragraph, which was weak. Still could use some work. As for Gdansk, as I recall there's still a great deal of disagreement. But surely we can all agree that Danzig should be bolded somewhere near the top of the article? (I'll continue discussion at Talk:Gdansk). john 22:07, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I suggest we remove all the regional capital cities from the second paragraph. That is described elsewhere, and is unnecessary in this short summary.
And I wonder if "but with a small part in the Czech Republic, and another small region, which only became part of Silesia in 1815, in Germany" is better English than repeating part of Germany? -- Nico 15:28, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I also suggest we move the name in "Silesian" dialect to "Demographics", "Name of the region" or something. According to the last Polish census (2002), 70,000 people speak this dialect. Silesia has 10 Million inhabitants. A name in a dialect spoken by 0,7 % of the present-day (not included the exiled) inhabitants of the region, is hardly worth to mention in the first paragraph. -- Nico 19:14, 10 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Zero made a suggestion on the mailing list, which (I hope) is irrelevant to this article (but just in case... ;-)

We could have an official version and a draft version. As I understand it, rather than say this article's neutrality or facts are disputed we could have an undisputed version at Silesia and draft version at Silesia (draft).

We would all agree that some trustworthy soul would copy undisputed text from the draft version to the main version.

This is the, um, "reverse" of my earlier proposal to have an alternate version at Silesia (moderated).

Don't worry, I'm not going to jump ahead and start doing anything. My role as Mediator is merely to lubricate the gears. I don't want to turn the crank. --Uncle Ed 16:51, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I just read that suggestion, as well as your answer referring to the "nice folks at the Silesia talk page" ;-) I don't think that the article is irrelevant. The reason why we managed finding a consensus is obviously that the most contentious editors left Wikipedia. They may come back and start it all again, or a "new set of contestants" (Zero's words) may appear.
Even now Nico is making some tiny changes, one edit here, one edit there, to turn the pretty neutral article back into a version that may become a basis for new edit wars.
In my opinion the version as of 9 Jan 2004, 23:11 (including Wik's edit) is definitely an undisputed version. I am in favour of protecting it and making all subsequent changes part of the draft version. -- Baldhur 00:16, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I find your statement very unfair. -- Nico 01:34, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with the changes that Nico has been making, but I think all of us should be running by any suggested changes at the talk page before making them, given the level of dispute which this article has caused. john 00:29, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I actually did. There was no response at the talk page. And, I have not moved the name in "Silesian" dialect yet, although I have proposed it, since I considered it more controversial than the other changes. Nico 01:37, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Indeed you did. I have no particular opinion on that subject. Let us wait and see if anyone else says anything. john 01:41, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] European names for the region

The so called "Silesian" name should not be mentioned before the Polish and German name. Only 0,7 % (Sic!) of the inhabitants of Silesia speak this dialect, and there does not exist any other encycklopedia which mention that name at all, so I would rather have deleted it or moved it to the demographics section. -- Nico 21:40, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Okay, or how about mentioning the 4 non-English variants in alphabetical order? Like Czech, German, Polish, Silesian? --Ed
I think the name "Silesian" is misleading, so it shouldn't be mentioned in that way. "Silesian" could also refer to German as well as Polish. And according to the Britannica is that "language" only a Polish dialect. The issue could be described in the demograpics section. That would be far more simple. In any event, the Polish name should be mentioned first, not the Czech. -- Nico 21:50, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Why don't we just keep it as it was before, with the alternate name mentioned at the end of the first paragraph? As far as order of the names within parentheses, I think it should be Polish, German, Czech. Certainly Polish ought to be first. john 00:45, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And Silesian should definitely stay. The question whether it's a separate language or a dialect of Polish hasn't been solved since 19th century. For the Silesians themselves the case is very similar to the status of Catalonian before 1975 or even after that. The Kashubian language shares the same fate. Halibutt 12:41, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Is it really the same as Catalan? That seems questionable to me - the Catalans have always been around. Certainly Catalan national questions were important during the Second Republic in the 30s, and probably before that. It seems to me that it's probably a lot more like the langue d'oc or like the various German dialects. Especially since so much of Silesia is now inhabited by Poles who had no connection at all to the region before 1945.john 17:19, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't know if the Bavarian nationalists insisted that their language be called Bavarian instead of German. However, the resemblance to Catalunya seems valid since the authonomy of Polish Silesia has been an issue ever since Poland regained independence in 1918. AAMoF the Silesian voivodship even gained some authonomy following the WWI and present-day Silesian nationalists propose the same.
I know that those issues are really tricky since most of the times they are resolved by politicians rather than linguists. Catalan was declared a dialect of Spanish by Franco, and even foreign publications often shared this view. Yet, today less people are willing to admit that the Catalan language does not exist. The same happened to Kashubian language: it was declared a dialect of Polish long ago in order to promote national unity. This attitude was strenghtened by German Kulturkampf and later the policies towards non-Germans during the occupation. Communist regime shared this view since it promoted a strange version of communist nationalism (Some sort of One Poland, One Nation, One Language, although expressed with different words). And now finally the language studies in Poland reached the times, when noone is finally banning the scientists from expressing other views on the language/dialect issue. That's why nowadays increasingly less people state that Kashubian, although practically impossible to understand for most of Poles, is a dialect of Polish.
The same, although to a lesser degree and on a much slower rate, happens in the case of Silesian. That's why I think that wikipedia should not take sides in this dispute that is still raging on in Poland and should not promote any views. Both concepts should be explained at the Silesian language page. However, since there are people, who call their language a Silesian language, we should accept their views here. After all it's them who live there.
P.S. I was obviously referring to the "Slavic Silesian", not to the various dialects of Czech, German or Polish spoken in the area at different periods in history. Halibutt 19:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Silesia after 1740

I've just found interesting page, where it is written, that in 1764 Landowners were forbidden for hiring people not knowing German, in 1765 it was forbidden to hire Polish teachers (but that decret had to be translated into Polish, because nobody had understood it), that he (Fryderyk The Great) even forbidden marriage between people not knowing German.. is it ubran legend or true? He also settled there 61.000 German settlers. Should we enter it into article or it would be onlu cause of revert wars? Szopen 10:00, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

No, it's probably not only urban legends. It reflects ideas of that time. Sweden-Finns had their own experience of similarly enforced assimilation, although the state of Sweden for all of the 17th and 18th centuries was a relatively modern country. ...but unless your source is either water-proofly credible, or available in English and highly credible (that is not quite as much as water-proofly ;-))) then I think you should be very careful to make too much out of it in Wikipedia, as it might act as a stimulus for people less interested in the authority of Truth and more of the Gloire Nationale of their favorite régime. /Tuomas 10:08, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

There was no "peace treaty" among the Soviet Union, Britain and the U.S. in 1945 giving the Oder-Neisse line definitive legal status. The Potsdam Declaration of Aug. 2, 1945, placed under Polish “administration,” but not sovereignty, Silesia east of the Oder-Neisse Line, but said “final limitation of the western frontier of Poland should await the peace settlement,’’ which never occurred. The two western members of the Big Three did not formally accept the Soviet formulation of the border until decades later. West Germany agreed to it in principle in 1971 and Germany formally ratified it in 1990.

User:sca 10dec04

SCA, one question relating to "The Germans numbered 4 millions before 1939". Are you referring to total of Silesia population or to ethnic Germans? As you know, about million of German citizens declared themselves autochtones (almost all in Warmia, Mazury and Silesia) and stayed. Before 1939 different estimates were showing similar number of Polish minority. If your 4 million refers to citizens, I will remove it since it would be incorrect. Szopen 17:22, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Szopen, the prewar population of Silesia within the 1937 borders of Germany was 4.7 million. My reference to "about 4 million Silesian Germans" is an estimate, based in part on the impression from readings that most of the Polish Silesians were in eastern Upper Silesia, which had been part of Poland since 1921.

I don't know the details about the "autochthones" but again, based on readings, my impression is that most of them were in Upper Silesia, had to some extent been bilingual before the war, and declared themselves "autochthones" in order not to have to leave their homes, i.e. suffer expropriation and expulsion (not to mention violence).

The only sizeable German minority in Poland today, as you know, is in Upper Silesia. These people have surfaced (and been allowed to speak German in public) only since the collapse of Communism. As a Pole who is interested in these topics, you may perhaps remember their appearance during Kohl's visit in 1990 with a sign that read, "Helmut, du bist auch unser Kanzler" ("Helmut, you are our chancellor, too"). My impression is that these people are the descendents of the "autocthones" mentioned above who remain ethnic/cultural Germans.

User:sca 12dec04

[edit] Attention tag... spiffing things up a bit

I noticed there was a fired up discussion about this page, but that noone has worked on it for some time, so I went ahead and formatted the text a bit. Hope it works OK for everyone. Oh, I also took down the attention tag - if someone thinks it's still neede, just put it right back! (although I think the page looks OK now, aside from section stubs...) Karol 22:53, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] FACTS ABOUT SILESIA

I had to wrote that. I come from Hungary and that's the reason why I'm objectiv. I'm a historian. I know a lot about Poland because I'm studying slavistic. You know, knowledge about slav people.


1)Lusatia aren't on SIlesia. Luzatia people are individual slowian people. They belong to Silesia only during german ocupation. It was from XVIII century to 1945 year. That's why I'm asking to remove that Silesia is now on the german side. It's situated in Poland and Czech Republic. Silesia is ending on the Kwisa and Bobr river.


2)For me, Nico, you are a tipical german nazist. Sorry, but you want to incline history to be comfortable to you. I think, that you didn'r read any book about Silesia, and if you did that, it was the book from Joseph Goebbels century.


3)You are and idiot, sca. You think that people at Silesia know german language? They don't know this language, don't betray people. I was many times at Upper Silesia and I saw that in schools teachers are learning their language - polish, and to choose english, spanish, french or russian. If you are so smart, come here (at silesia) and try to speak german. They will laugh at you.


4)On Silesia (10 mln people) according to nationality registration there is 96% polish people. The rest is the german less or people declaring silesia nationality (which doesn't exist).


5)FACTS :

-Generic people here are slav. Name silesia is also slowian and it became grom Sleza mountain and Sleza river. They are the latest probate analysis. They are the facts.

-first polish setntense were told exactly at silesia (day ac ya pobrusza a ty pocziway)

-Silesia writers from XV, XVI and XVII century Szymon Pastorius, Olbrycht Strumienski, Walenty Rozdzieński wrote IN POLISH. Though german nationalism and destroying polish humanity

-polish scientist dr Alina Kowalska demonstrated that city and vilage people at silesia in XVI and XVII century know how to speak only in polish.

-Silesia was german only for 200 years.

And it's all facts. People, please, read a bit before you will write that piece of shit and so many lies. This article must be corrected. hungarius 19:17, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Fascinating, I'm sure. john k 20:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
of course, you know better. hungarius 23:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Dear anon, please be civil. Starting your work on wiki from accusing others of being nazis and idiots doesn't lend credibility to your case. Btw, I am a Pole, and I think you are going overboard in the 'other' direction - Silesia has a complicated history, with a mixture of Czech, German and Polish history. You got at least one fact wrong: being born and having lived in Silesia (Katowice) most of my life, I can assure you that knowledge of German language is fairly large. In most of the schools, German is one of the foreign language chosen by students in addition to English. Usually, the choice is German or French and at least in the schools I attended 3/4 of studends chose German. In addition, some students know the Silesian language, which uses quite a few German words. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
OK, sorry, but I think so. Nico will want to all be in Germany. It's true. hungarius 12:23, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
and you are wrong. Silesian language is only a dialect. It has polish grammar and inflection. It has only another articulation and german-loan. But loans had too cestina, polish and kashubian.
I am no specialist, but wiki article sais: Opinions are divided between speakers and linguists as to whether Silesian is a distinct language or another dialect of Polish. Personally, I'd say it is a dialect, since I can't undesrstand German at all, but I can understand my friends speaking Silesian quite well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
Silesian people call it even "Slaski jezyk" or "Sloonski jezyk" (Silesian language), but it´s only a polish dialect. But there is also a german silesian dialect, the word "Ritsche" (stool) as an example. "polish, and to choose english, spanish, french or russian. If you are so smart, come here (at silesia) and try to speak german. They will laugh at you." Hello? German is the most learned language in Poland. Russian? Nobody youth wants to learn it, russian is now a very unimportant language in Poland. And I do not believe that there exists many possibilities to learn spanish. Maybe you wasn´t in Silesia? Or I was somewhere else. But than I was in Gliwice there were many people in shops who spoke german. In Silesia are also many german-contests and sometimes the participants win a trip to Germany. Only 200 years german? The Habsburg-dynasty was also a german dynasty. And another fact: Many people outside the towns have no Cable-TV, that´s why many people have Satellite-TV, which they get many german tv-channels. Jonny84 01:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Medieval Silesia might have ended at the Kwisa and Bobr rivers, but Silesia since the 19th century does include parts of Lusatia. This article is not just about medieval Silesia, but about the history of a region called Silesia whose boundaries have changed numerous times. Other encyclopedias directly state that part of Silesia is in Germany.

  • Britannica[1]: "It now lies mainly in southwestern Poland, with parts in Germany and the Czech Republic".
  • Columbia[2]: "a small section of Lower Silesia W of the Neisse was incorporated with the East German state of Saxony".
  • Encarta[3]: "Silesia also included sections of present-day north central Czech Republic and of the states of Brandenburg and Saxony in eastern Germany". Olessi 21:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
but Silesia with end at Bobr and Kwisa was for 700 years and with end on Lusatia for 200 years

Olessi:"but about the history of a region called Silesia". OK, I understand. Therefore in article IS sentence: "– Silesia became a province of Prussia. In 1815, the area around Görlitz was incorporated as a part of the province in an administrative reform." And you wrote [...] Columbia [...]. Look, Columbia write: "Politically, almost all of Silesia is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic." This is first sentence in introducion! I can't read more in Encarta, only "Silesia (Polish Ślask; German Schlesien; Czech Slezsko), historic region of Central Europe, mostly in what is now southwestern Poland, comprising the..." --Hungarius 22:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Transylvania originally did not include cities such as Arad or Oradea, but now it does. Likewise, centuries ago Silesia did not include Lusatian lands, but now it does. You are correct, originally the Lusatian lands were not Silesian. The Prussians then added Lusatian lands to Silesia administratively. However, for almost two hundred years now the inhabitants there have considered themselves both Lusatian and Silesian, and in that time period the boundaries of Silesia have changed.
Silesia does not exist as a medieval entity anymore, so the article's introduction should not be constrained to only include the lands currently within the medieval borders. I fully support including the Kwisa/Bobr boundary being mentioned within the History/Middle Ages section, but those boundaries are not relevant for the beginning of the article- what was Silesia in the Middle Ages is not Silesia today.
You focus on how the vast majority of Silesia is in Poland and Czechia. That is absolutely true, but it is also true that part of current Germany has been considered Silesian in the past two centuries. Regardless of whether or not southern Sorbs considered themselves to be Silesian, part of Germany is administratively known as Silesian and has been for a long time. You point out "almost all of Silesia is divided between Poland and the Czech Republic"- why should the remainder not be mentioned in the introduction as well? The article's intro states that Silesia is a historical region of Central Europe. Parts of Lusatia historically were and administratively continue to be part of Silesia. Olessi 22:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

(Just to note, but User:Nico has not been contributing to wikipedia for more than a year now). On the substantive issue, I agree with Olessi - there is no reason not to mention the originally Lusatian part of Silesia that is now in Germany. Geographical names change their reference points, and it is not for wikipedia to decide what the "correct" meaning of a term is. john k 22:57, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I´m Silesian. It´s wrong that Silesia ends at Bobr and Kwisa. It´s true that some parts of Silesia are also a part of Lusatia. But that´s only a small part. The information of Encarta that a part of Silesia is in Brandenburg is wrong. The german Silesia is only a part of Saxony. In today Germany we call often only this parts Lusatia, there the shields are in german and sorbian. Görlitz and it´s inhabitants are very proud to be part of (Lower-)Silesia and they call themselves mostly (Lower-)Silesian. A county near Görlitz is also called "Niederschlesischer Oberlausitzkreis". A bank is also called "Niederschlesische Sparkasse". It´s defintely wrong to say Silesia ends at Bobr and Kwisa. Jonny84 13:35, 27. August 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're wrong there, Johnny: I used to live in the south of Brandenburg, just north of the old Silesian border. It only affects a handful of villages and one town - but a few square miles in the extreme south of Brandenburg were part of Silesia.

On the wider issue, since there is a "Lower Lusatian District of Upper Lusatia" in Saxony, the article should mention that about one tenth of Silesia is situated in today's Germany. (Alright, it's Lusatia first and Silesia second - but that's not for me to resolve ;) ) Lasse Mar 31st, 06.

[edit] Major cities

I have added Görlitz and Opava to the Major Cities section. Opava was the capital of Austrian Silesia, while Görlitz is part of the small section of Silesia in Saxony. It is arguable that Ostrava should be included as well, because part of the current city was once known as Silesian/Polish Ostrava. However, the more important part of the city, Moravian Ostrava, was part of Moravia. Olessi 01:37, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A map isn't good

Where is Cieszyn Silesia? This is a part of historic Silesia! And a Lusatia isn't part of Silesia!! It was part of Silesia only 50 years - in Provinz Schlesien! --83.29.246.133 13:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC) wir

Zielona Gora in Dolny Slask? Maybe 50 years ago, but today it's called Ziemia Lubuska, especially by most inhabitants.. I came from Swiebodzin which formally was part of Silesia, but I always called this area "Lubuska land" and never felt any ties to Silesia.. Szopen 08:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The map is just fine

The boundaries shown on it match the ones in the external link, and also jibe with the text in the article. Kelisi 02:35, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The external map depicts the borders of the Prussian province of Silesia as of 1871. It does not take into consideration "Teschen", Hlučín, or Opava (the later Moravian-Silesian Region), all of which were in medieval Silesia. I'm not positive, but Ostrava could also be possibly included. The first Wiki map depicts Silesia within Germany in 1871, while the second Wiki map presents the medieval boundaries of Silesia (but without the later addition of parts of Lusatia). That is why I had changed the caption from Historic to Medieval. A proper "Historic Silesia" map would depict all of the territories that have been considered "Silesian". Olessi 08:21, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you know a source for that? I'd like to do it properly. Kelisi 19:51, 6 November 2005 (UTC).........Never mind. I've found one. Gimme a while and I'll change the map...........There you go. The new version still hasn't appeared, but I gather it will within a few minutes. There are now two Silesias outlined. Kelisi 04:04, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I was gathering these links while you were preparing that new map (which hasn't appeared yet). Shepherd's historical atlas has a few maps depicting Silesia: 1378 (notice Silesia extending into the Schwiebus area north of the Oder), 1477, 1547, 1648 (notice the enclave of Schwiebus in the north), 1786 (divided between Prussia/Austria). This 1378 map from the external link seems to depict Silesia at its furthest extant: the "middle" yellow color depicts the medieval Silesian duchies including Schwiebus/Świebodzin, the red depicts the Principality of Glatz/Kłodzko, and the light yellow within the red border to the left depicts the Upper Lusatian area added during the 19th century. I think it best to inquire with a Czech speaker whether or not Ostrava was ever Silesian. The town really only started to develop in the 19th century, and thus wasn't important enough to include on historical maps relating to medieval times. However, part of the town is "Silesian Ostrava". Olessi 04:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I have been able to get the thumbnail of the new map to work, but not the full image. It looks good to me so far, with the exception of the Schwiebus region presented on the 1378 maps. Olessi 04:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
This detailed 18th century map shows Ostrava (Ostrau) on the border between Moravia and the Duchy of Teschen. Olessi 05:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Having looked at the 18th-century map, I see that Silesia's borders as defined thereon match the cyan border already on the map in the article, except for the Schwiebus exclave. I have therefore added that, and I would further suggest that we desist from adding any further lines to the map lest it become an indecipherable tangle of borders. The caption is already a bit tangled. I really only meant the map to be used as a locator so that readers could see just which part of Europe the article was going on about. Showing Silesia's limits at various times in history isn't a bad idea, but I would suggest separate maps for that. Kelisi 18:33, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Sounds good. Thanks for working on the maps. Olessi 18:43, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Did someone delete the map? It seems to be missing today. Lusanaherandraton 04:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I was looking on Wikipedia to see if there were any pages written in Silesian vernacular, instead I found this. I have to say it's a disaster, Wikipedia will never work on subjects apparently so controversial as this one. I did not read everything in detail (emotionally destructive waste of time), but it seems to me that everybody has to say something on the subject except for Silesians themselves. A Silesian would never call himself either a German or a Pole. He would call himself a Silesian (Ślonzok), and he would call somebody like Nico (the Gentlemen of clearly German point of view) a "Dojcz", and somebody like... I forgot his name (the person with the Polish view) as "Gorol" - meaning a non-Silesian Pole (don't confuse with "Góral"). An ethinic Silesian is referred to by Germans as "a Pole" (unless of course he's a German speaker), and by Poles as a Silesian. He will plea his allegiance to either Poland, or to Germany depending on Political circumstances, but he will not and cannot reject neither. To use a term "German Piasts" is simply historical manipulation in the extreme akin to saying "Polish Hohenzollerns" when talking about the rulers of Ducal Prussia, because they paid tribute to a Polish King for a while. At the same time claiming exclussive Polishness of the region is ridiculous, even the Silesians themselves don't believe in it. I think the problem lies in this: who do you call a Silesian. It looks like according to Nico, only a German speaking inhabitant of Silesia, or a descendant of such has the right to call himself a Silesian. At the same time, any sign of Silesian ambiguity about it's relationship with Germany is seen by Poles as treason, and their language ridiculed. I think the best example of the problem is the person of Lukas Podolski, the recent hope of German soccer national team. Born in Gliwice/Gleiwitz, he is seen by (many) Poles as turncoat, and by Germans as a Pole who had a fortune of being granted German citizenship. I'll bet your house Nico, that the lad feels a part German and a part Pole. He is simply Silesian. With regards, Faustus.

You mean a part of Upper Silesians. The majority of Lower Silesians run away or were expelled 1945. Later totally new Polish community was created, with a number of Polish immigrants from France, Bosnia, Romania. Xx236 14:55, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eckersdorf in Silesia

An Indonesian public figure Franz Magnis-Suseno (born Franz Graf von Magnis) is said to have been born in Eckersdorf, Silesia. Someone told me once that this village is/was located in Glatz/Kłodzko but he was not sure. So can anybody please tell me where it is? Thanks. Meursault2004 09:42, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

There were several places named Eckersdorf. If you mean Grafschaft Glatz/Kotlina Kłodzka: the Polish name is Bożków (See Polish Wikipedia: Bożków) http://www.grafschaft-glatz.de/bilder/neurode/eckers.htm http://www.zlb.de/digitalesammlungen/SammlungDuncker/14/828%20Eckersdorf.pdf

Do you think this person comes from Bożków? Because I see some mentions about Ekkehardisdorf and von Magnis. Many thanks man! Meursault2004 21:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

The original entry Franz Magnis-Suseno contains the name Eckersdorf (Neurode), which is Bożków now. Xx236 08:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I did that :-) But I also wrote as a footnote that the present name is Bożków, Dolnoslaskie, Poland. Meursault2004 09:11, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/2868/Rodokmeny/Magnis.txt The comments are unfortunately in Czech.

 1.1.3.1.6.6.4.1.3.2.7.1.   MAGNIS, VON Maria Franz Anton Valerian Benedictus Ferdinand, (son of MAGNIS, VON Maria Ferdinand 
Constantin Stanislaus Anton Valerian Johannes and LÖWENSTEIN-WERTHEIM-ROSENBERG, ZU 
Maria-Anna Josepha Sophia Katharina Walburga Aloisia Antonia) born 26 May 1936 in Bozków 
(=Eckersdorf). 

knìz Societas Jesu - Pater Franz von Magnis

Xx236 09:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes that's him! Once again thanks! Meursault2004 10:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

BTW what kind of website is this? He has lists of many families. Meursault2004 11:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It's genealogy of the author. Xx236 13:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] about Name of the region

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Al%C4%85sk_nazwa

"Poglądy na temat nazwy "Śląsk": 1. Bradtkie w pocz. XIX w., nazwę Śląsk wywiódł od nazwy rzeki Ślęży, od której swoją nazwę mieli przyjąć Ślężanie (o których pisał Geograf Bawarski w poł. IX w.). Od lat 30 –ych XX wieku prowadzone były lingwistyczne badania Semkowicza i Rudnickiego, którzy uznali że nie jest prawdopodobne by rdzeń Sil- (jakoby pochodzący od Silingów) mógł się zmienić w: a) „Sleenzane” u Geografa Bawarskiego czy b) w „Zlasane” w dokumencie praskim z 1086 czy c) „Selenza”, w nazwie rzeki Ślęzy, w bulli papieża Hadriana IV z 1155 r. 2. Samo słowo Śląsk pochodzi od „ślęg” co oznacza wilgoć, słotę a to znajduje uzasadnienie w dużej aż po 500 m, wilgotności góry Ślęzy i rzeki Ślęzy płynącej przez rozległe mokradła. 3. Historiografia zna wiele przypadków określenia plemion nazwami rzeki. W odwrotnym kierunku odbywało się to raczej rzadko. Wskazywałoby to na nazwanie Ślężan od rzeki Ślęzy. 4. S. Rospond zbadał najdawniejsze dokumenty z XII i XIII wieku i zauważył że nazwy z tego okresu zapisywano w formie: Slesia, Slezia, Zlesensis. Forma „Silesia” zaczęła pojawiać się znacznie później – już w czasach nowożytnych, prawdopodobnie „za sprawą lektury Thietmara, który jako pierwszy słowiańskiej nazwie Śląsk nadał dostosowaną do grafiki i fonetyki niemieckiej formę Silensia”. 5. Wg wskazówek Ptolemeusza, Silingowie (od których wg niektórych naukowców niemieckich pochodzi nazwa Śląsk) zamieszkiwali tereny Łużyc. W związku z tym związek Silingów ze Śląskiem byłby niewielki. 6. Czeska nazwa Śląska brzmi Slesko czyli zaczyna się od Sle- a nie Sil-....(np. "Silesia" jak brzmi nazwa łacińska). 7. Nowe badania J. Udolpha przychylają się do twierdzenia że nazwa Śląsk pochodzi od nazwy Ślęży i wskazał przy tym na wiele plemion słowiańskiech, których nazwy pochodzą od rzek. Jego zdaniem nawet ewentualny rdzeń sil- nie wskazywałaby na germańskość nazwy, ponieważ rdzeń sil- spotyka się w nazwach wielu rzek np. Sile w Wenecji, Silla w Asturii, Silinka w Rosji. Swoje badania opisał w „Der Name Schlesien, [w:] Studia Onomastica et Indogermanica” – Graz 1995 i w „Der Name Schlesien [w] Opuscula Silesiaca” – Stuttgart 1998."

please translate... --Hungarius 13:49, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

This is the English language Wikipedia. 81.131.16.68 16:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In 1905, a census showed that 75% of the population was German and 25% Polish.

Population of German Silesia. Xx236 13:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Cite your sources please.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
If it is true it deffinitely regards only to Prussian Silesia, not Austrian Silesia (Opava and Cieszyn Silesia) with Czech population... D_T_G (PL) 22:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
I think he is talking about the whole Silesia - 25% Poles in whole Silesia seems totally correct, since most of them were in Upper Silesia and Opole region, while elsewhere were almost absent..Szopen 12:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
What a dazy :O So I live at the part of Silesia where had never lived Czech, and what is ever more pert here didn't lived Poles cause inherently it's not Upper Silesia in my point of view :P So maybe I'll repeat: what about Czechs, Jews and others? This article is about whole Silesia - not only Prussian/German... D_T_G (PL) 15:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

"Census" - probably a German one, so only in Prussian Silesia. Xx236 10:14, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] League of Nations plebiscite

The plebiscite, organised by the League of Nations, was held in 1921. The outcome was 706,000 votes for Germany and 479,000 for Poland, according to Polish estimates. German sources, and those of the League of Nations, give a wholly other impression.

If it was organised by the League of Nations, why aren't the League of Nations figures listed first? Whose Polish estimates? Wladyslaw Gomulka's? 136.186.1.117 04:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the League of Nations figures are the internationally accepted correct figures. Neither Germany nor Poland had any input. The Plebiscites were carefully monitored and published by the Allies. 81.131.16.68 16:27, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In accord with the Munich Agreement that surrendered Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany.

The Munich Agreement didn't "surrender Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany". Xx236 10:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Correct, it did not.81.131.16.68 16:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lower Silesia vs. Upper Silesia

I don't know, but i think it's somehow misleading *not* to differ between Lower and Upper Silesia especially in the history section of the article. Although both a part of the same historical entity they vary greatly in the way they developed. The Piasts of Lower Silesia for example founded their monasteries with monks from Germany and Bohemia, whereas the Piasts of Upper Silesia called them from Poland. This had a HUGE impact on the developement of the country, since the monasteries were the centers of the colonisation and somehow illustrate the affiliation to a certain culture area. We can see the problems that arise when we not differ between Upper and Lower Silesia in the talk pages too. Nationalists from both sides (Poles and Germans) use either the upper or lower part of Silesia to push their agenda. It's confusing to find out which part some users mean when they talk about polish or german majorities in the late middle ages or something. For example, a user on this talk page points out that "polish scientist dr Alina Kowalska demonstrated that city and vilage people at silesia in XVI and XVII century know how to speak only in polish". Question is: in every part of Silesia? Which is somehow difficult to believe given the fact that many lower silesian towns or villages were founded by germans or switched to a german name in the middle ages because of the majority of germans there. A good source for it is this book, a collection of documents mainly of Lower Silesia and Upper Lusatia: http://www.literature.at/webinterface/library/ALO-BOOK_V01?objid=19012

I think at least a part of the history section should be splitted in Upper and Lower Silesia to better illustrate the different direction these two regions took. 84.181.107.43 09:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you! Lower Silesia didn't have any relevant Polish-speaking minority. In Upper Silesia, some German people spoke a certain "Polish dialect" but this didn`t bother that people to avow that they are Germans.

Actually, after WWII, many of that "Polish-speaking" Germans had to leave Upper Silesia, too. Some remained for doing forced labor.

Wikiferdi 21:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Silesians?

According to the 2002 Polish census, 170,000 people considered themselves to be 'Silesian' rather than Polish. That would make them Poland's largest minority. So, are the Silesians simply ethnic Poles "insufficiently aware of their Polishness" or do they constitute a separate West Slavic ethnicity? It seems even the Polish government doesn't have a concise policy towards the 'Silesians'. According to Warsaw, the Silesians are not a nation, and, therefore, cannot be considered as a "minority", even though they constitute an "ethnic group".

Moreover, does anybody know if Prussia/Germany recognized a distinct Silesian ethnicity? Or were the pre-WWII Slavic inhabitants of Silesia simply considered to be Polish?

They were considered to be Polish (and mostly _were_ Polish). the distinct SIlesian identity seems to become phenomemenon post-war, as result of misguided policies (though there were example so fSilesian national activists even before WWI).

[edit] Arms and flag

Firstly it must be said that Silesia as a historical region hasn't an official coat of arms or a flag. Neither Image:Flagge Preußen - Provinz Oberschlesien.svg (reversed flag of Upper Silesia; it should be yellow-blue), nor Image:Flaga slaskie.gif (arms of the Voivodeship) are the right flags of this region. The flag of Silesia was white-yellow, Upper Silesia introduced the yellow-blue flag, as it became a province in 1919. The coat of arms used in the article was copied from the Czech coat of arms, but as it shows the right picture I think this isn't a problem, as long as there isn't a better version. --PetrusSilesius 19:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Better to remove with article the flag and coat of arms. OK. I deleted. LUCPOL 11:41, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groß-Rosen concentration camp

The article about the camp is Gross.... So eventually that article should be moved to Groß.... Xx236 13:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the article should be moved to Groß. Ameise -- chat 19:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German names

German names of places are generally (very) old. There are however many names imposed in Germany since 1936 and in Poland since 1939. A reader should be informed if a name is 500 years old or was imposed by a Nazi administrator during WWII. Xx236 13:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a standard in most articles where cities had two names (German and Polish). The fact that the German name is in parenthesis should insinuate that they are no longer used -- I wouldn't say that most of them are 500 years old... Germany lost Silesia in WW2 (though they lost Upper Silesia in WW1). Ameise -- chat 15:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
...and gained Silesia in 1871. Space Cadet 06:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
How did Germany "gain" Silesia in 1871, other than "gaining" its own existence as a country? Silesia had officially been part of Prussia since the end of the 7-Years War (1763) and de facto since 1742 or so.RogerLustig 22:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, Germany lost a tiny bit of Silesia (Hlučin) directly after WW I and a more substantial portion a few years later. But most of O/S (as it was abbreviated then) remained German until 1945.RogerLustig 05:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
The longest historical period of Silesia was under Polish and Bohemian kingdoms. Thus conversation is over, but according wiki policies other names should be included in the parenthesis alphabetically. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 11:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Tulko, I am glad the conversation is over. But, before you unilaterally conclude for all, can you please tell us where you source your "longest historical period..." information from? Thanks--Agrofe 02:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Government" site

Instead of citing "government" sites can you cite some historical sites? But anyway, even this site says that the lands inhabited by Polish tribes were united. Archeology says that they were reunited after over 100 years of separation. Space Cadet 06:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peace conference

This Wikipedia article about Silesia states:

"Under the terms of the agreements at the Yalta Conference of 1944 and the Potsdam Agreement of 1945, German Silesia east of the rivers Oder and Lusatian Neisse Rivers was transferred to Poland (see Oder-Neisse line)."

In my opinion is this wrong. - Both (!) conferences (Yalta and Potsdam) demanded that the demarcation between Poland and Germany should be implemented by a forthcoming peace conference. You can read this clearly in the documents of that conferences.

Also James L. Gormly writes regarding the establishment of the Oder-Neisse Line: "The president (Truman) complained that there were now five occupation zones because the Soviets had turned over the area extending along the Oder and western Neisse to the Poles. This was in violation of the Yalta agreement. The president did not see how economic controls or reparations could operate if Germany was thus broken up." (p. 49)

James L. Gormly: From Potsdam to the COLD WAR. Big Three Diplomacy 1945-1947. Scholarly Resources Inc. Delaware, 1990 (ISBN 0-8420-2334-8)

James L. Gormly was educated at the University of Arizona and the University of Conneticut, from which he received a Ph.D. in history. The author of numerous articles on U.S. foreign relations, in 1987 he completed The Collapse of the Grand Alliance, 1945-1948.

He is currently a professor of history at “Washington & Jefferson College” in Washington, Pennsylvania.

Wikiferdi 21:22, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, that peace conference never took place, so the demarcation lines decided at Potsdam became de facto borders. The peace conference could have overturned them, but there was no peace conference so they were never overturned. What is exactly the point you are trying to make?. Balcer 21:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
The sticking point is, that the Allies didn't decide a border between Poland and Germany neither in Yalta nor in Potsdam. In Yalta Churchill opposed vehemently the Soviet proposal of a frontier at the Oder-Neisse Line. The U. S. in Yalta supported only a separation of East Prussia from Germany in favor of Poland. This is well-documented at the FRUS (Foreign Relations of the United States) [4]. And in Potsdam they couldn't imagine more territory given to Poland than to the eastern Neisse river (Glatzer Neisse / Kłodzko)[5]. The demarcation line drawn in Potsdam should have been just a temporarily one because the Soviets and their Polish Allie had already pegged out this line before the Potsdam conference. Potsdam decided that the border between Germany and Poland should be decided on a forthcoming peace conference (cf. Article IX). Potsdam acted clearly on the background of Germany in her borders of 31 December 1937. Silesia etc. were de facto annexed by the Soviets/Poland in violation of international law and not even "under the terms of Yalta and Potsdam".
This is what I am maintaining when I am criticizing the formulation as aforementioned.
Wikiferdi 00:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
There was wide concensus among all the Allies that Poland had to be compensated for the territory it lost to the Soviet Union, and this was to be achieved by giving it German territory, not only a portion of East Prussia, but considerable areas in the west as well. There were some arguments over where precisely the new border would run (i.e. which Neisse river would the border etc.), but the general idea of extending Poland to the line of the Oder River was pretty much universally accepted (drawing a border along that major river was considred essential, to give Poland defensible borders with Germany). Restoring Germany within the 1937 border was not an option seriously considered. I think that your attempts to expand minor disputes over the detailed location of the border line into a full-blown claim that the Western Allies did not want to give Poland any German territory (except East Prussia) are totally unreasonable. Balcer 02:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
"The U. S. in Yalta" - this is what I have written. Please read exactly. Well, during those other conferences they changed their mind in a certain way - just because Stalin (and his Polish cronies) leaned on them. - I didn't say that the Allies wanted to keep Germany in her borders of 1937. But in Potsdam they didn't decide any border. In "Article VI - CITY 0F KOENIGSBERG AND THE ADJACENT AREA" (cf. Potsdam Agreement) they declared:
"The Conference has agreed in principle to the proposal of the Soviet Government concerning the ultimate transfer to the Soviet Union of the City of Koenigsberg and the area adjacent to it as described above subject to expert examination of the actual frontier.
The President of the United States and the British Prime Minister have declared that they will support the proposal of the Conference at the forthcoming peace settlement."
Something similar they hadn't declared concerning the Oder-Neisse. In admitting that there were two Neisse rivers in consideration you shouldn't ignore that by "choosing" the eastern Neisse a large territory would have remained in Germany. And this was supported clearly by the western Allies - maybe just of economical reasons, because they didn't want to provide so many expected expellees with food... At least this was what Churchill said. - Wikiferdi 17:50, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

The sound file for German pronunciation is good, but it would be nice to have an English pronunciation provided in IPA symbols. Lusanaherandraton 04:22, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish merchants in the cities

Although part of the Holy Roman Empire, Silesia continued to have strong economic ties, especially through the Jewish merchants in the cities, with the neighbouring Kingdom of Poland during the Renaissance period and beyond.

This is a little misleading. By ca. 1500, Jews had been expelled from most of Silesia; the imperial expulsion of 1582 allowed them to reside only in two cities: Glogau in Lower Silesia, Zülz in Upper Silesia. Brilling estimates the total Jewish population of Silesia in 1600 at 120 people. (Die jüdischen Gemeinden Mittelschlesiens, p. 4.) Not until the end of the 17thC did Breslau start to have a Jewish community again.

To be sure, the Jews of Glogau and Zülz were important for trade, and the Zülz Jews served as "local Jewish merchants" for Breslau, Oppeln and elsewhere. But most of the Jewish merchants who kept the economic ties strong were from the Polish cities.RogerLustig 22:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

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