Talk:Silent Spring

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 This article is part of the History of Science WikiProject, an attempt to improve and organize the history of science content on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. You can also help with the History of Science Collaboration of the Month.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale.
Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

Contents

[edit] Removed section

An anon removed this text:

==The Book's Claims Examined==
The book attracted hostile attention from scientists, commentators and the chemical industry. Opposition began even before Houghton Mifflin published the book. One of Carson's controversial claims was that DDT is a carcinogen. Studies have failed to demonstrate a link between DDT and cancer. On the contrary:

  • In one study, primates were fed 33,000 times more DDT than the estimated exposure of adult humans in 1969. No conclusive link with cancer was detected.
  • A study of 692 women, half of them control subjects, over a period of twenty years, established no correlation between serum DDE and breast cancer. DDE is a matabolite of DDT, and correlates with DDT exposure.
  • A study examined 35 workers exposed to 600 times the average DDT exposure levels over a period of 9 to 19 years. No elevated cancer risk was observed.
  • In another study, humans voluntarily ingested 35 mg of DDT daily for about two years, and were then tracked for several years afterward. No elevated risk was observed.

    I agree that this information should be referenced, it appears to have been stuck in here by someone with a DDT is ok POV, does anyone know where these figures came from? --nixie 23:15, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC) This information comes straight from theJunk Science DDT FAQ. Each one of the claims in the FAQ are sourced. If these points aren't restored, I think that a link to the FAQ should at least be in this section of the article. Lokifer 22:09, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    The JunkScience.com web page appears to be produced by a former lobbyist for ExxonMobil and Monsanto (just google it), it's hardly independent or NPOV. This text should be removed from the page immediately. —This unsigned comment was added by 62.255.32.14 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 8 May 2005 (UTC).

    While the former lobbyist may be partial, the scientific studies are not. So long as those scientific studies are sourced to independant parties, I don't think it makes any difference if someone else wants to use it as proof in an arguement. If DDT doesn't cause cancer, this should be stated here, even if someone else is using this information for their own ends. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. —This unsigned comment was added by 144.89.180.230 (talk • contribs) 02:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC).

    It's true that there was no world ban on DDT. However, the countries that decide to use DDT forfeit their claims to foreign aid. It's no wonder that African countries, who are looking for all the aid they can get, decide not to use a pesticide that they can substitute for other (albiet more toxic) alternatives. —This unsigned comment was added by 12.76.174.1 (talk • contribs) 21:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC).

    "...the countries that decide to use DDT forfeit their claims to foreign aid." Source, please.Cronos1 00:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] NPOV and factual accuracy

    This article appears to have several NPOV problems and likely factual accuracy issues such as:

    • The statement "Many blame the banning of DDT throughout the world for a resurgence in malari..." is not NPOV. It needs to state who makes these claims. Many is simply a weasel term. Also it would probebly be good if the evidence used by these people to support the numbers cited be referenced.
    • The statement "The book attracted hostile attention from scientists, commentators and the chemical industry." needs to clarify whether a majority of scientists and commentators where hostile to the book or a small numbers. If one is going to claim a majority then it should be backed up. Also giving examples of hostile scientists and commentators outside of the chemicle industries would help in terms of NPOV.
    • The counter claims regarding DDT's possible carcinogenic effects need to be backed by a better source. As others have already noted, the site currently referenced appears to a propaganda website for chemical industry interests. Surely their must be a more neutral source to supports this view. If not then I would suggest the info be either removed or at least make it clear who behind the website presenting this aurgument.

    --Cab88 10:14, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

    Rem text: What else. Surprised it has survived so many edits, not a suitable paragraph for an encyclopedia article, even in a war zone like this one. Andrewa 21:17, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Resurgence in malaria

    I see that

    'The statement "Many blame the banning of DDT throughout the world for a resurgence in malari..." is not NPOV. It needs to state who makes these claims. Many is simply a weasel term. Also it would probebly be good if the evidence used by these people to support the numbers cited be referenced.'

    Has been marked done. I can find no such claim from The Malaria Foundation International - I may not have looked in the right place. Secondly, I would like to see a citation for the claim that DDT has been banned throughout the entire world. To the best of my knowledge, it has not. Specifically, it is not banned for public health use in most areas of the world where malaria is endemic. If my understanding is incorrect, I would like to see the documentation. Thank You! --Cronos1 02:30, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

    How could Carson's work have possibly led to a world ban on DDT? A world ban? Passed into law by the legislature of the world and signed into law by the emperor of the world? International law being the spotty, inconsistent, and feeble thing that it is, we can confidentlly assume that any world ban--if there is such a thing--is less than enforceable.

    If DDT were consistantly effective in stopping malaria, there would be no compelling reason why African nations--even if they had previously banned the substance--could not reintroduce the product in the battle against malaria. It's not as if the chemical formula is a secret. DDT, if used responsibly, may be a terrific tool in fighting malaria, but it's not foolproof. In fact, the pesticide's effectiveness will probably never again match what it was during World War II. This is because DDT's widespread use, especially its overuse, served to promote the survival of mosquitos resistant to the poison.

    Detractors of Carson rush to misrepresent her position on DDT and other pesticides. She did not call for a ban of pesticide spraying. What alarmed her was the indiscriminate use, misuse, and overuse of substances that had not, in her time, been proven safe. (Many had been shown by wildlife biologists to be at least mildly hazardous and most have, in the years since Carson's death, been shown to be far less benign than the chemical industry--which has for decades heaped mud upon Carson and her book--would like everyone to believe.)

    Carson never advocated letting insects destroy crops and spread disease unhampered. She was a pioneer in calling for intelligent, sustainable strategies for controlling insect populations.

    The Hayes study, cited above and on the Junkscience.com site (which is an extremely biased source), was very poorly conducted. Most of the voluntary participants quit very early on, leaving behind a statistically insignificant sample. Further, the researcher did not follow up on subjects to check for long-term effects.

    Tt should be noted that Carson had staunch supporters among the scientific community. They included Nobel Prize-winning geneticist Hermann Muller. The anti-Carson forces (and they really do stoop awfully low) claim that she "lied" or at least misrepresented the work of wildlife biologist James DeWitt. This cannnot be so, because DeWitt actually participated in the preparation of Silent Spring. William Shawn, editor of The New Yorker hired DeWitt to help check Carson's copy before a condensed version of the book appeared in serial form in the magazine. If DeWitt's research had been misused, isn't it likely that he would have corrected Carson at that point?

    ---dph--- —This unsigned comment was added by 216.165.154.149 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC).

      • It should also be noted that Hermann Müller was the scientist who patented DDT in Switzerland (1940) the United States (1942) and Australia (1943)

    http://nobelprize.org/medicine/laureates/1948/muller-bio.html

    -Anon —This unsigned comment was added by 142.177.153.0 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC).


    Use of the $5 "sustainable." Want a gold star sticker? Jamesg 10:30, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Neutrality tag

    I have removed tag. All criticism/vindication are cited. Therefore, from Wikipedia POV, there is no question of neutrality. Just because someone criticise or advocate Carson does not make sections "biased" in term of wikipedia. FWBOarticle

    The problem is not that the criticisms are not cited; the problem is balancing the overall weight of opinions correctly; the criticisms were real, but in the beginning came from VERY self-interested chemical industry scientists. Later criticisms have varied widely, but I believe the majority view is actually that most of Silent Spring was/is legitimate, and the harshest critics are still often considered cranks.--ragesoss 17:18, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
    Firstly, the title of the section is "Criticism". So the idea that criticims is not being balanced for being criticims is absurd. Plus, it is obvious that pro Carson would consider Carson's critics as "VERY self-interested chemical industry scientists". But I could easily describe Carson's supporter as "VERY agenda-oriented green lobby ideologue" but that would not be NPOV. More importantly, what type of "majority" view are we talking here? Is it majority view of general book reading public (which include Time) or majority view of agricultural or medical or biological science journals. Can anyone cite a single positive review of the book from any of scientific journals? Plus, listed experiment showing lack of link between DDT and cancers are direct testing of DDT while research indicating possible link between DDT and cancers are anecdotal. Moreover, all these annecdotal evidences are produced "after" the publication of the book. What kind of evidences did Carson used to claim that DDT is a carcinogen. Did she even bother about evidence? Another thing is that she only has bachelor degree in marine biology and master degree in zoology. Usually, this field of sience does not concern itself with hard science such as bio-chemistry. So she got it right in regard to food chain and bird eggs, but did she get it right or did she even had qualification to voice scientific opinion in regard to DDT's medical effect on human? FWBOarticle
    I don't have time to dig up much about it now, but as I understand it the vast majority of the book was based on a synthesis of scientific publications (you can get an idea by browsing through the 55 pages of the "List of Principle Sources" in the back of the book). The fact that she didn't have a PhD is not particularly relevant, since the book wasn't based on her original research; she was employed as a science writer who distilled the essence of other people's research for a living. I'm moderately certain that there were favorable reviews from science journals shortly after publication. Of course, I won't make any changes until I have the time to actually track down the evidence. But DDT as a carcinogen is only a very small part of the book and its argument, and she specifically notes who it was classifying as a "chemical carniogen" (Dr. Hueper in Occupational Tumors, which, at least according to Carson, was a respected scientific monograph on the subject). Throughout the book, she carefully notes the scientific publications on which she bases her claims: ". Much of the immediate criticism was outright lies and character assassination (though I don't doubt that some of the later criticism is legitimate). She provided the source for pretty much every scientific claim she made, and was very clear about where she was being speculative; the degree to which the criticisms are valid is more-or-less the degree to which the accepted science has changed.--ragesoss 06:35, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Support/Criticims Split

    It is clear from criticims section that at lease, "some" claims by Carson is not backed by science. Plus, to say that her criticims came from chemical industry and scentist would be NPOV. However, if one try to imply that critcism of carson come "only" from "self serving" chemical industry and scentist paid by the industry, that is POV and it should be placed in "Support" section. IMO, this book looks like a reverse of the Skeptical Environmentalist. FWBOarticle

    Ronald Bailey is an adjunct fellow of the Competitive Enterprise Institute. This makes him an industry advocate. A review of his writings in his journal will reveal that they are, in general, highly supportive of industrial interests over those of public health. See http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute/Personnel Cronos1 22:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

    That's not true at all. He's a free market advocate, true, but that's not the same thing. Just because someone argues for fewer government regulations doesn't mean a corporation is paying them to say it. If you find a source stating that Bailey is an industry advocate, then fine, but otherwise that claim doesn't belong here. Korny O'Near 23:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
    "He's a free market advocate, true, but that's not the same thing." Technically, yes, you could be free market and not an advocate for industry, but that is clearly not the case here. "CEI advocates for the elimination of regulations It postures as an advocate of "sound science" in the development of public policy. However, CEI projects dispute the overwhelimng scientific evidence that human induced greenhouse gas emissions are driving climate change. They have a program for "challenging government regulations", push property rights as a solution to environment problems, opposed US vehicle fuel efficiency standards and been a booster for the drug industry." 'doesn't mean a corporation is paying them to say it'...CEI and the American Enterprise Institute "have two of the highest levels of corporate support, with both getting roughly 40 percent of their 1996 revenues from corporations" http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute Cronos1 23:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
    That's just guilt-by-association. It's no surprise that corporations would give a lot of financial support to think tanks that argue their side of the issues. That doesn't mean that the people at those think tanks don't actually believe what they're saying, or that they're somehow being told what to say by their benefactors. This is Wikipedia; for a controversial statement like what you're claiming, you really need to have a source. And no, I don't think SourceWatch counts: it's a wiki by and for left-wing activists. Not that that article itself even says that Bailey or CEI are industry shills; it just lays out some damning-sounding facts and expects the reader to draw conclusions. Korny O'Near 01:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    'That's just guilt-by-association.' Nonsense, sources have been cited saying that Ronald Bailey is a fellow of CEI, CEI advocates for deregulation to benefit business/industry, moreover, CEI takes money from corporations (circumstantial evidence of quid pro quo). Provide sources disproving one of those three statements or leave the issue alone. You are the one arguing a controversial statement and backing it up not with sources but with broad platitudes of a supposed 'free-market advocacy' that is not somehow pro-industry when it argues for deregulation which benefits industry.

    I have read several articles in scientific journals, encyclopedias, and dictionaries from respected and reputable scientific institutions & publishers published in the last 5 years, not a single one has ever contained any hint that there is any substance to Ron Bailey's charge that Rachel Carson was 'ignorant of the facts' (which facts, Bailey doesn't identify or source, is this so he doesn't have to prove it?). The sole reason Bailey's article remains in this entry is to demonstrate that industry continues to try to undermine the public's support for environmental regulation, which began, argueably with Silent Springs' publication.Cronos1 02:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

    No, the reason Bailey's quote is in here is because he's a journalist who had something to say about "Silent Spring". It's not the job of Wikipedia to confirm or refute his statements. As to the circumstantial evidence you cite, is he now "guilty until proven innocent"? That's now how it works in Wikipedia. The burden is on you to prove anything beyond the bare facts stated, which are "Journalist A made criticism B". Korny O'Near 14:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    You are mistaken. I cited sources (according to you, It's not the job of Wikipedia to confirm or refute the sources cited) which established Ronald Bailey is a fellow of CEI, CEI advocates for deregulation to benefit business/industry. Disprove one of the two or leave the description as is, it's that simple. The only thing circumstantial in the above is that there is a quid pro quo relationship between industry and CEI which is not necessarily relevant to Silent Spring, but is a proof against your rather fanciful idea of what constitutes a advocacy group..."Just because someone argues for fewer government regulations doesn't mean a corporation is paying them to say it" ...the corporations are paying them for something. Cronos1 23:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
    I think you have an incomplete understanding of Wikipedia's neutrality policy. The idea that Bailey is a corporate advocate is SourceWatch's opinion, but you want to present it as fact. The correct way to write it might be "Ronald Bailey, who, according to SourceWatch, is a corporate advocate (link), wrote:..." Then again, their page doesn't even say he's a corporate advocate - they just lay out some facts that suggest that that's what they're getting at. The only person or source directly calling him a corporate advocate seems to be you. Find someone else who says it and then you can stick the assertion in (but still, it would need an "according to"). Korny O'Near 19:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
    Again, you are mistaken, I have not yet given my understanding of Wikipedia's neutrality policy. I have quoted your representation of Wikipedia's neutrality policy back to you to see if you apply the interpretation equitably to your own claims and, apparently you do not; choosing to apply on a selective basis as you perceive an advantage to your own position. For the 3rd & final time, I cited sources which established Ronald Bailey is a fellow of CEI, CEI advocates for deregulation to benefit business/industry (and yes, if you check in SW, you will find a place that lists industry-friendly experts, documented, mind you-unlike Bailey's smear-you can also easily find other sites that give this view of Bailey). Disprove one of the two or leave the description as is, it's that simple. Cronos1 21:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
    Okay, first of all your pointless ultimatums just sound silly. Second of all, I am applying Wikipedia's policy equitably. A controversial statement like "Bailey is a corporate advocate" should be neither confirmed nor refuted by Wikipedia, but by presenting it as fact, you essentially want Wikipedia to confirm it. I, on the other hand, think it's fine for it to be included, as long as find you a source to state it. Do I have the same approach to Bailey's statements? Yes, I do - they're not presented as facts, they're presented as one man's opinions. Note the quotation marks around them. Now do you see the issue? Korny O'Near 22:39, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Food chain and DDT

    Cut from intro:

    Research has shown that the pesticide DDT is persistent in the environment, ingested by members of the bottom of the food chain, and becomes more concentrated in higher members of the food chain (birds and humans).

    Is this part of her argument for banning DDT, or what? If so, could someone fill in the gaps?

    Was Carson arguing that because of the concentration, birds and humans actually did ingested harmful amounts of DDT?

    If so, let's do two things:

    1. Clarify that this was her argument
    2. Present any readily available evidence which bolsters or counters her argument.

    It would be good to present some numbers with this evidence. For instance, how much DDT per day can a human (or bird) eat without any significant health or reproductive problems?

    Also, has there been deception in some studies? I read today that one researcher fed birds a diet which contained 80% less calcium than normal as well as a bit more DDT than normal. How can we tell whether the thinner egg shells were because of more DDT or MUCH LESS calcium? --Uncle Ed 20:08, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Consolidated references

    I consolidated most references into the notes section, using the <ref>, </ref> system, in the process moving the inline external links there as well. Some of the references formerly in the external links section also now appear in the notes. The only external link that was removed was to a pay-only school notes site. Some of the references had dead links, and these were repaired. --Blainster 20:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Unverified and citecheck tags

    I have added warning tags; the way the studies are represented on JunkScience and similar sites is often not "clean". E.g. studies of limited scope are presented as general fact, and claims are habitually overblown or even false to start with (like the supposed "global ban" - there is none. What is considered bad practice is indiscriminate, large-scale, long-term use of the stuff.). For example, chickens are for some reason very unsusceptible to adverse effects of DDT (which, as with any substance, exist; it is the dosage that matters), which renders most controlled-condition research on DDT environmental toxicity ultimately meaningless. It is highly advised that someone who takes no strong stand on the issue reviews the papers. Dysmorodrepanis 22:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

    I've removed the citecheck flag. Perhaps {{unreliable}} would be better? It seems that the sources here were cited appropriately, but the value of the sources themselves is in doubt. Citecheck is for out-of-context quotes and other misrepresentations of a source. Durova 23:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] "Industry and agribusiness advocates continue to criticize Silent Spring"

    Alright, this is essentially the same discussion as above. This sentence appears in the article, even though there has not been a single source found to state that either of the critics quoted, Dick Taverne or Ronald Bailey, are industry or agribusiness advocates. They've certainly never called themseves that. This is instead the opinion of one Wikipedia user, and thus does not belong in this article; it should be removed. Korny O'Near 03:36, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

    No, it has one element in common with the discussion above, but the situation has changed; before you complained because you said the sentence made it seem like Ronald Bailey, fellow of CEI & anti-regulatory 'journalist' was a industry advocate, the section was rearranged so that Bailey's screed did not follow the sentence and can no longer be considered the subject of the sentence. Am I now to assume you require a source for Taverne's industry advocacy and when it is provided, the sentence may remain? Cronos1 04:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
    Yes, that's a safe assumption. Korny O'Near 05:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
    Here is a profile of the lobbying group chaired by Lord Taverne:

    http://www.lobbywatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=151

    and another profile specifically mentioning his 'support of biotechnology':

    http://www.gmwatch.org/profile1.asp?PrId=127&page=T

    Cronos1 23:34, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

    Okay, this is more of the same circumstantial evidence you brought up for Bailey. I don't think there's been a think tank or lobbying group in history that's never gotten corporate funding. By your standard, then, everyone who's ever worked at a think tank or lobbying group is thus an "industry advocate" for some industry or another. This is innuendo, and it's not nearly evidence enough to state, as fact, that Taverne is essentially a paid shill. Korny O'Near 17:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
    I don't think that saying someone is an industry advocate equates to calling them 'essentially a paid shill' but it does communicate a POV of a cited source that is relevant & critical in this case. Out of curiousity, what is your definition of an advocate? A 'paid shill'? Cronos1 19:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
    Yeah, sure - someone who says certain things only because one or more companies are paying him/her to say it. What does it mean to you? Korny O'Near 22:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
    In the strict sence of usage above, from the OED:

    3. One who defends, maintains, publicly recommends, or raises his voice in behalf of a proposal or tenet. Const. of (for ? obs.).

    This would, of course, include shills. Cronos1 01:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

    Oh, sorry, I thought you were asking about "industry advocate". Yes, "advocate" is a fairly neutral term, but "industry advocate" is not - it indicates that money is changinc hands. I'm sure you agree, since otherwise you wouldn't be fighting so hard to keep the term. Am I right? Korny O'Near 04:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
    Actually, no. Industry and Agribusiness advocate means what it says, someone who is a proponent of industry & agribusiness interests. As far as I know the only advocacy that by definition implies financial compensation is the legal variety. I fight hard to keep the term in because it is both accurate, relevant, and not a POV term like 'corporate shill'.Cronos1 18:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

    Wait, have we been arguing all this time because of a semantic issue? I think that "industry advocate" implies payment, and you don't? Because if so, this argument should be much easier to resolve. Then again, I don't know if that's the case, since earlier in our discussions you talked about "circumstantial evidence of quid pro quo". So which is it? Korny O'Near 19:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

    Financial support would be evidence of 'quid pro quo' which is what I was using to establish to you that there was and is advocacy, which is what your original edit denied the existence of...so yeah, I think it would depend upon the reader's understanding of the word. If you can find a definition which says that the condition of advocacy is dependent on financial consideration, please let me know.Cronos1 00:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    I don't know about a definiton, but there are certainly examples of that connection being established; here's one. I'm just curious as to what exactly you think an industry advocate is. Anyone who's spoken out in favor of an industry? By that definion, anyone who writes something against "Silent Spring" is an industry advocate, since they're presumably writing in favor of less regulations on industry. Korny O'Near 18:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    Regarding your example 'paid consultant' would be an advocate, and may be what some would call a shill. 'Shills' being a subset of advocates.

    No, you could have a non-industry advocate articulate an arguement against 'Silent Spring'. I have yet to see one.Cronos1 18:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

    So again, just to be clear, what's your definition of an industry advocate? Korny O'Near 19:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    One who defends, maintains, publicly recommends, or raises his voice in behalf of industryCronos1 22:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    So if I wrote an editorial saying that agribusinesses have done a lot of good and that we should reduce regulations on them, would that make me an industry advocate? Korny O'Near 22:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
    I think I've been pretty clear about how defined above.Cronos1 16:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
    It would be helpful if you spelled it out. As we've seen, the term can mean different things to different people. Come to think it, that in itself might be reason enough to keep it out of the article. Korny O'Near 18:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
    "the term can mean different things to different people" - but this is constrained by what people can find in a dictionary. So, one could not maintain that it means a only a compensated person who defends, maintains, publicly recommends, or raises his voice in behalf of a proposal or tenet without producing a dictionary entry to that effect, regardless of how imprecise that person's understanding of the word might be.Cronos1 20:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

    But... there is no dictionary definition of "industry advocate". At least, we haven't found any. Look, if the term just means to you something like "someone who takes the side of industry in an argument", then by definition anyone who criticizes "Silent Spring" is going to be an industry advocate; the term is redundant. Korny O'Near

    So, ‘Industry Advocate’ is not in the dictionary; this shouldn’t come as too big of a surprise since they are two separate words, each of which is, however, in the dictionary. Questions arising from their usage should be derived from dictionary definitions or a specific usage. What is your concern? Earlier you positioned your objections on the premise that advocacy implied payment. Are you still confused? You also seem to be implying that opposition to Rachel Carson’s book and regulations derived thereof determine that one is an industry advocate, you further imply that, if this is the case, that determination is somehow not legitimate. You will need to demonstrate how and why you think this applies to the specific issue at hand before I can make any comment beyond what I have already stated.Cronos1 17:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
    News flash: there's plenty of two-word terms in the dictionary. See brain drain, for example, which isn't literally a drain of brains. So yes, "industry advocate" could have been in the dictionary, since it has specific, non-literal meanings; unfortunately it isn't. In any case, let me spell out simply, so you understand: some people, like me but not just me, think the phrase implies payment: if that's true it shouldn't be in the article because it's an unsourced allegation. Others, like you, think it just means someone who's sympathetic to industry: if that's true it shouldn't be in the article because it's redundant. In either case, it doesn't belong. In addition, the mere fact that there's different interpretations of the term means that it should probably be phrased differently, to avoid confusion. Now do you see the issue? Korny O'Near 20:07, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
    Thanks for the News Flash. I would not characterize the number of two word dictionary entries as ‘plenty’ but understand that yes, there are some. If one were to estimate the percentage of noun and modifier entries out of possible combinations, surely you would agree that this number is less than 10% of the possible entries, and therefore not a ‘big surprise’ that one of those possible entries does not, in fact, appear. I made that observation, not to hurt your feelings but to affirm that the absence of an entry does not imply some sort of linguistic trickery on my part. There are similar two word phrases that one could think of…Cat Fancier & Cigar Aficionado are the names of two magazines that come to mind, without looking I would say that the absence of an dictionary entry ‘shouldn’t come as too big of a surprise since they are two separate words’. What is more, I would think that looking at the definitions of each word, reasonable people could agree on what a combined definition would be. The strength of your argument that industry advocates must be of the compensated variety is only as strong as the authority you cite to prove the argument. Clearly, based upon the evidence I have seen and upon the evidence you have provided, the people who think that Industry Advocate implies payment misunderstand the term advocate and cannot provide either a dictionary or published article duplicating this misuse of the term. If I were to insist that the term ‘Journalist’ means someone who works for the major networks, local affiliates, metro-newspapers, or Time and Newsweek only, and I insisted that ‘Journalist’ be removed from the description of Ron Bailey based upon my understanding of the word, surely you would agree that the burden of proof is on me (& "people like me")? Ralph Nader is frequently referred to as a Consumer Advocate (also Consumer Activist)…does this imply that he is paid by consumers? When you buy a Corvair, do you pay a service charge to fund Ralph Nader? Of course not! Advocates advocate, payment is optional. In my mind, the most common usage of the description ‘advocate’ is used with ‘not-for-profit’ causes, ending world hunger, stopping drunk driving, etc., so if anything, the connotation should be non-payment! This other notion, that Industry Advocates are understood to be the only people who criticize Carson, is begging the question a bit much. If Industry thought that transparency was good, there would be no CEI or Reason Foundation (funded by Exxon that is); Exxon would simply issue press releases stamped ‘Exxon Corporation Public Relations’ and be done with it. If that were the case, I would agree that it would be redundant to note that Exxon is an Industry. On the other hand, I am not some sort of Rachel Carson personality cultist; while I do not know of any peer-reviewed scientific criticism of her work, I would not want the presumption to be that any such criticism is merely the machinations of industry. You asked why I was determined to keep the sentence in the entry, at this point your argumentation is so improbable, I would like to know why you are so desperate to take a very mild pejorative (only in the emotional/psychologically associative sense at that! & only for a few select people!) removed from the article?Cronos1 17:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
    Okay, you know what? You win. I've lost my patience for this argument. I think you gave yourself away at the end there with your statement that these "industry advocates" are in fact paid shills, and I'm sure we could have many more back-and-forths about that, but in any case, this argument has already gone on for far too long; we both have better things to do, even just on Wikipedia. Take care. Korny O'Near 14:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
    Interesting, since you have given up this arguement, you won't reply, but a quick review of the above discussion will in fact reveal that I never made a 'statement that "industry advocates" are in fact paid shills'. Nice try though.Cronos1 22:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
    Arr.... dammit, I can't resist responding to that. Note the one word you dropped out in your re-quoting of me. Korny O'Near 03:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
    What, 'these'?? If so, I suppose you mean Bailey & Taverne? I still didn't say it! So don't know what your going on about.Cronos1 19:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Style of book

    The big problem with Silent Spring (in my opinion) is that the book gives the impression that DDT is poisonous to to an extent that is not supported by a close attention to the exact text. When you read closely you notice that she mentions DDT, PCB, Dioxin, Lindan and other substances together but most of the time when she specifically mentions the documented poison DDT or PCB is not mentioned.

    Example: She mentions the spraying of the forrests of New England with DDT. (Stupid on other grounds as "Will not work", "Will kill many useful insects" etc.) She then mentions that there was a stink of fuel oil in the forrest and that there was a sheen of oil on the waters. She then mentions that the spawning of salmon was ruined for several years. Impression was that salmon was poisoned by DDT even though she later on mentions that second yearlings died from hunger since the food (mulatiyear insects was not reestablished yet) was not there for a few years.

    In other places she mentions Mississippi poisoned by organoclorides from the pesticide factories, mentioning Lindan, Dieldrin and DDT. She then gives evidence that Dieldrin poisoned fishes giving the impression that all poisoned fishes.

    She never gives actual messures of killing potential (like LD50 for species, make a search on the net with LD50 and the poison and you will find sites.

    I could go on but that is enough.

    She had a very good point in that misuse of pesticides was ruining the enviroment (Just imagine using arsenic as a weedkiller in farming! TRUE) and also (like misuse of antibiotica) making them useless when really neeeded.

    I could also point out that it is a very effective way of arguing, link something demostrably wrong with something you want to blacken and it is difficult to separate the two in mind and in debate.

    Seniorsag 10:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

    Addition:

    First: I do not know how to reply to personal messages, can someone please inform me. I could find nothing on the help pages but that may be my incompetence or hurry. I was to slow to confirm my mail adress so I do not get mail, could someone inform me on how to get that working?.

    Second: The idea behind the comment is that sometimes I do get irritated that people react to the impression of books etc insted of what is actually written. When you get into "political" issues it is wery common that intentionally the impression is other than what is actually written. (Or sometimes what the popular summaries sums it to.) (One example is Malthus "An Essay on the Principle of Population" which many thimk proposes active birth control. That is false, he proposes late marriages, in his opinion "if you are married it is your cristian duty to have as mmany children as you can, not even abstinence in marriage is allowed". I have found that many impressions of debated books have little or no support in the books, much of the debate is pseudodebate for that reason. Silent Spring is one case, she is arguing a very good case (against misuse of pesticides and weedkillers) but she (like many other) suspected more substances to be poisonous than was substanciated by fact. She (in difference to other debatists) was careful not to claim more than she could prove.

    I will not edit the article for such details since that will probably start an edit war but I want to point out the fact to those who have learnt that POV and debate exists in TALK, giving more information than exists in the articles. Seniorsag 13:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Criticism

    A User without a valid username (209.195.161.82) has edited the Criticism section multiple times eliminating a valid and relevant comment on one of the criticisms; moreover, the eliminated paragraph refers the reader to article DDT's effectiveness against malaria which is the most appropriate article to debate the merits. As another editor has observed, the public relations statements of the pesticide industry are not appropriate and as importantly, do not address the issue the deleted paragraph (correctly) states: Traverne's criticism of Carson is made without regard to the fact that what Carson advocated was not total elimination of DDT usage, but the widespread use which results in pesticide resistance. The editor (209.195.161.82) should read the article DDT's effectiveness against malaria and understand that current "effective" usage is indoor spraying-not addressed in Silent Spring. Cronos1 03:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

    This user without a valid username never removed the reference to DDT resistence. There is an embedded support section in the critisism section. This seems misplaced. I first tried to rewrite the offending comment into an actual critisism, then I moved it to the support section. I can understand your dislike of some of my edits, but total reversion and labelling me a vandal seems harsh. And the actual critisism of the critisism is midguided. The critisism starts that banning DDT was responsible for almost as many deaths as some of the worst dictators of the last century. The rebuttal is that DDT was loosing its effectiveness. So should the original critisism be changed to millions or hundreds of thousands of dead? The critisism of the critisism is a statement of support in the critisism section. The original critisism was a cited source, the critisism of the critisism is a referenced opinion. Anyway, if you don't want anonymous additions, require a username. Otherwise, you'll have to deal with my IP. Invalid User 209.195.161.82

    However, this criticism doesn't consider that, as reported also in Silent Spring, mosquitoes had started to develop pesticide resistance. Hence already before publishing Silent Spring, DDT was no longer as effective as this criticism implies. See also DDT's effectiveness against malaria.

    But it should be noted that DDT resistance does not negate DDT's effectiveness as per Sharma et al in Impact of DDT spraying on malaria transmission in Bareilly District, Uttar Pradesh, India

    I'm not entirely sure what purpose was served by Dtheque's moving the above comments to the Talk page, so if you wouldn't mind explaining, I would appreciate. Secondly, the citation of 'Impact of DDT spraying on malaria transmission in Bareilly District' does not belong in an article about Silent Spring. To do so completely ignores the historical context of DDT usage & Carson's purpose for writing the book. As noted in the article, "Carson had made it clear she was not advocating the banning or complete withdrawal of helpful pesticides, but was instead encouraging responsible and carefully managed use..." which would appear to include 'Indoor Spraying' for the purpose of Malaria control, but not the widespread and indescriminate agricultural use of the pesticide which the book questioned. Thirdly, the appropriate place for the information in the Bareilly District paper is in the DDT#Effectiveness against Malaria article. And lastly, the statement "DDT resistance does not negate DDT's effectiveness" is true only to the extent that DDT still has some effectiveness, mainly on the non-resistant portion of the mosquito population. If all the mosquitoes in the world were DDT resistant, DDT would not impact malaria rates!Cronos1 23:56, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/i/l/Talk%7ESilent_Spring_1b9e.html"