Talk:Siege of Tenochtitlan

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Contents 1 Major additions 2 Removed Moctezuma II from the Commanders box and added Cuitláhuac 3 Strength of the Aztec side 4 Defeat of Narvaez section needs some work 5 Focus of article 6 Please do not change Moctezuma to Montezuma 7 GA Nomination Failed 8 "Indian" title 9 "Cortés as Quetzalcoatl" 10 change of title and addition of details

[edit] Major additions

I have added (as well as edited) the entire article, as I saw it was too brief and missing much crucial information. I have left out (and removed) much of the "opinion" which was on the article and the way the tale is told. Its all factual, and if anyone feels the need to check any of it, by all means do so (in case I have made an error somewhere). I was going to add other battles and more events, but I know little of them and they would end up being very brief, besides I think this is well in its perpotions as it is. Enjoy (or dont I dont care).

[edit] Removed Moctezuma II from the Commanders box and added Cuitláhuac

If we consider the siege of Tenochtitlan as having started in 1521 when Cortes returned to Tenochtitlan after having escaped during La Noche Triste, then Moctezuma II was long dead by the time the siege began.

I made the mistake of including him as a commander because I was thinking of the conquest of Tenochtitlan which arguably began in 1519 when Cortes first arrived at the city.

I am adding in Cuitláhuac as a commander since he was tlatoani before Cuauhtemoc. Richard 17:53, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strength of the Aztec side

There is a problem with the number on the Aztec side of the Strength box. The total population of Tenochtitlan is estimated to be between 60,000 and 300,000. Cortes estimated 60,000 but, based on what I've read, it seems that 200,000 to 250,000 is a better guess. I would use 250,000 as the estimate for population but that makes 150,000 - 300,000 way too high a number for "troop strength" (i.e. able-bodied fighting men).

Interesting question. The most common estimate y have seen for the population in the "moetropolitan" area of tenochtitlan was about 130,000, but we can accept a higer estimate of 200,000 asuming that people form the surrounding islets wents to their city., . While all male population was trained a warriors only some of them became full time warrior and the other became artisans. If we discount females, children and old men, a "guestimate" of the available man power would be one third of the population. And of course there are the allies of the Tenochca; The Tlatelolca who probably could contribute with another 30,000 warriors, altough in the end, the Tlatelolca women took the military symbols , cut their hair and join the battle. I will look if someone has a better "guesstimate".... Nanahuatzin 05:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps 100,000-150,000 would be a better estimate for "troop strength". I admit that I'm "pulling a number out of thin air" but, based on the argument above, 100,000-150,000 is a lot better number than 150,000-300,000.

Now, for casualties, it's hard to say. 100,000 isn't bad, it might be too low. Tenochtitlan was practically empty when Cortes entered. Much of the population had been decimated by hunger and disease (smallpox). The canals were filled with dead bodies. The remainder probably fled into the jungle. How many actually died? I'm sure nobody counted the bodies. Richard 18:04, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

when the city became inabitable, the survivors went to Tlatelolco, where the last battle was lost. From he book of the "informantes anonimos de tlatelolco" we can infeer the last battles were fougth mainly by the Tlatlolcas, since the Meshica were already to weak and decimated to fight. Unfortunatelly neither the spaniard, tlatelolca, mexica or tlaxcalteca cronicles give numbers. Se heres to se if you can have any conlcusion... http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/mxpoprev/cambridg3.htm (note: here we do to have jungle, but coniferous forest) I ofunt an estimation of 30,000 inahitants of Tenoctitlan in 1520, but there is no source mentioned. I will search to see if i can found something. Nanahuatzin 05:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defeat of Narvaez section needs some work

The sentence about Cortes learning of another landing party does not explain that Narvaez had been sent to arrest Cortes. I will try to rework this section when time permits. Richard 18:09, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Focus of article

I hope it is realized that recent additions have roamed far beyond the topic of this article. Things like La Noche Triste and the battles of Tacuba and Otumba all merit their own articles. I am taking steps now to correct this. Albrecht 16:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree in principle but the reason that "La Noche Triste" has its own article and the battles of Tacuba and Otumba don't is that I had insufficient information on the battles of Tacuba and Otumba with which to create articles. This will have to go on the "to do" list.

--Richard 04:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please do not change Moctezuma to Montezuma

Please consult Wikipedia:Wikiproject Aztec/Terminology first. If you wish to dispute the decision to use Moctezuma over Montezuma, please do so but do not arbitrarily change Moctezuma to Montezuma without building a consensus first.

--Richard 22:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nomination Failed

I would pass this for GA nomination, bu the lead section is too short and there aren't enough inline references. If this were speedily fixed, I might consider passing it.--Esprit15d 19:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Came here to review since I didn't see it on hold on the candidates page and have some additional points.

• Agree that lead needs to be expanded
• Well written: failed -- "Alvarado ordered to close the door on the recint" what's a recint? also, that whole sentence is not well-worded. Another example: "In June 1520, Cuitláhuac mounted a determined resistance to the Spaniards." and "The Aztecs insisted in chasing Cortés in his retreat as to destroy the weak remnants of his army" It needs a good grammar check
  • Too many one line paragraphs
  • Several redlinks to Main articles
  • Too many qualifiers in parentheses; work these into the prose.
• References - though inline citations are not required, you should definitely have them for the instances where you say "according to one source" etc.

Normally I would put this on hold, but since the first request to expand the lead was over 7 days ago and that hasn't happened, I'm failing this. Please resubmit when you've worked on these issues. plange 05:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Indian" title

Can someone go through the article and change "Indian" to either "Native American" or "Amerindian"? The "Indian" nomenclature is rather obsolete and is not really used for indigenous americans anywhere anymore.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

While this is an english encliclopedia. I wish to coment that a least in Mexico, Native american or amerindian are never used. Here most comon word is simple indigenous (indigena). Nanahuatzin 15:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Cortés as Quetzalcoatl"

The initial Aztec association of Cortés with the god Quetzalcoatl is subject to academic dispute.

It is true that Quetzalcoatl was a god, but the Quetzalcoatl the Mexica believed Cortes to be was a ruler from the ancestral home of Tula that exiled himself and left towards the east on a raft of snakes. When this ruler's return was scheduled on the Mexica calendar, Cortes of course landed from the west in a location similar to where Quetzalcoatl left. Furthermore, there is an account of Moctezuma explicitly telling Cortes he does not believe him to be a god.

Please cf. "Moctezuma Controversy"[[1]] and decide if the reference should be reworded.

As an aside, in the 5th(?) paragraph of "Tlaxcalteca remain loyal to Cortés" [[2]], the reference to Velazques is something of an orphan - Velazquez is not mentioned anywhere else in the article, and there is obviously some backstory there. Either the backstory should be referenced (in another Wiki page, if it exists), or the mention should be stricken from the article.

Also, "And his Tlaxcalan allies were still loyal." is a sentence fragment and should be connected to the previous sentence instead.

All-in-all though, this is a finely written article in many ways... useful, informative, and fun to read.

you are right that the article in its current form misrepresents the Quetzalcoatl myth. I would support changes in this direction although I would reword your version slightly.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 07:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] change of title and addition of details

Within the next week, I intend to add some more details to the article, particularly about the events leading up to the siege in order to make the article more complete. Because of these additions, I would like to change the title of the article to "Fall of Tenochtitlan," because I feel it would be more pertinent. MRB15 02:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)