Talk:Siege of Orléans

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Portal:France
 France Portal
Siege of Orléans is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France and Monaco on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.
This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

I apologize for overwriting what was here before, eliminating almost entirely the previous work on this page. It seemed largely irrelevant and ungrammatical, if not inaccurate. Generally, I try not to do this, since I would hate for it to be done to my articles, but there just didn't seem to be much worth keeping... sorry.

LordAmeth 18:38, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No need to apologize. Wikipedia is editable by everyone for a reason, and you did a great job on the article. Kairos 22:46, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fixed a few things. Joan of Arc was a peasant but not a shepherdess. Characterization of both her and Charles VII is more NPOV now. She did not attack the English when she first arrived in town (although she had wanted to). Dunois (or rather, the future count Dunois) was in charge of the city's defense. She did not gain co-command until after Orleans, and then her co-commander became the duke of Alencon.

This article still needs quite a bit of attention. It says nothing about how the citizens of Orleans ceded control of the bridge at the start of the siege or about the Battle of the Herrings, the most significant action before Joan's arrival. It fails to mention the Tourelles, the most significant fortification and site of the fiercest fighting. The Tourelles was a stone fortress guarding the bridge. St. Loup was a small wooden structure. Other military commanders at Orleans deserve mention: Gilles de Rais, Poton de Xaintrailles, Etienne de Vignolles (la Hire), and Sieur de Gaucourt.

Some explanation of the city's importance and the reasons behind its resistance would be in order. The duke of Orleans remained a prisoner in England 13 years after the Battle of Agincourt because of his leading role in the Armagnac party. Hence the city's inhabitants could expect brutal treatment at the hands of the English if their defense failed. Strategically Orleans was important as well. See Joan of Arc for a discussion.

Perhaps it would be better if this article were titled Siege of Orleans. Hardly any history refers to it as Battle of Orleans. Durova 04:44, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Update: fixed a battlebox description that confused the future count of Dunois with the duke of Alencon. Added an aftermath section with links to the other Loire campaign articles, most of which are newly created. Added Wikilinks. Durova 16:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 08:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Battle of Orléans → Siege of Orléans – Reason for request: (1) it was a siege, and not a battle; (2) "Siege" and not "battle" is the name by which it is commonly known - it is referred to as a siege in virtually every source work and other writing on the subject, including Pernoud, Gies, Warner, deVries . . . (3) the previous move (from siege to battle) was not justified JFPerry 03:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Voting

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Support. Olessi 01:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Support for reasons stated in discussion JFPerry 02:51, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. NB Siege of Orléans has only 1 edit in the history - anyone should be able to do the move. Rd232 talk 16:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Move it to Siege of Orleans and drop the funny French squiggle as most English speaking people don't include it--Philip Baird Shearer 01:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, and retain the accent: Philip's argument is more relevant to simple:. Tomertalk 06:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, and retain the accent per the above comment. I assume this move will go ahead, so fixing the redirect at Siege of Orleans will be all that's required --Lox (t,c) 17:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Durova is quite correct in suggesting the page be moved (back!) to its original title Siege of Orleans. It is almost universally referred to in the literature and histories (and in the article itself!) as a siege which is what it was, and not a battle. In fact, I know of no sources or works which refer to it as a battle. All use the term siege. Unfortunately, the target (Siege of Orleans) is now occupied with the older material and history and hence the need to go through this cumbersome process. JFPerry 03:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Two other points should be noted regarding the name of this article.
First, the principal literary source concerning the events which are the subject of this article is the Journal of the seige of Orleans (in French: Journal du siege d'Orleans). Note: siege, not battle.
Finally, there are the words of Jeanne La Pucelle (known to most of the English speaking world as Joan of Arc) herself: "Four things are laid upon me: to drive out the English; to bring you to be crowned and anointed at Reims; to rescue the Duke of Orleans from the hands of the English; and to raise the siege of Orleans." (spoken to Charles at Chinon) Note again: siege, not battle. She was there. She ought to know. JFPerry 16:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
I support the requested move. This was in fact a siege - it lasted more than half a year - and is known as a siege in all or nearly all references in both French and English. To my knowledge no justifiable reason has ever been provided for naming this differently in Wikipedia. Durova 21:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


Support, and retain the accent: Philip's argument is more relevant to simple:. Tomertalk 06:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

The naming conventions WP:NC "Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly used in English than the English form." and Google returns:
  • about 571 English pages for "Siege of Orléans " -Orleans -wikipedia.
  • about 13,200 English pages for "Siege of Orleans" -Orléans -wikipedia.
So "Orleans" ought to be used if this page is to follow the guidelines. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Or the guideline should be changed. Our article on the city, after all, is at Orléans, not Orleans. Tomertalk 18:00, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Google:

  • about 336,000 English pages for Orléans -Orleans -new -Wikipedia
  • about 2,520,000 English pages for Orleans -Orléans -new -Wikipedia

Orleans is clearly more popular on Enlish pages on the web than Orléans however this is about the name of the "siege of Orleans" and the over whelming usage in English for the name of the siege is to use "Orleans" not "Orléans". Why should an English encyclopaedia use a French version of the name when common English usage is for a name without a funny French squiggle? --Philip Baird Shearer 22:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

(1) Calling an accent "a funny French squiggle" does nothing to prop up your arguments. (2) your opposition to Orléans based on Google searches is less than scholarly, but given (1) that's unsurprising. If you'd take the time to construct a better search, or to bother to look at the results of the ones you cite, you'd quickly realize that in scholarly articles Orléans is overwhelmingly preferred for the city in France (as well as for the Île d'Orléans). If we were having this discussion at simple:Talk:Orleans I'd be inclined to agree with you, but this is not simple:, this is [[:en:]]. Tomertalk 22:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


[edit] Battle of the Herrings: Joan and Baudricourt

The story of Joan's apparently miraculous prediction is quoted in the Joan of Arc Wikipedia article as though it were a simple, historical fact. It is also recounted in, for example, Sackville-West's biography where she refers to Quicherat's 5 volume Proces as well as the Journal du siege d'Orleans. The story is not universally accepted.

On the testimony of what witnesses it is based, and when they testified, I do not know. JFPerry 13:24, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually that's Quicherat, Volume IV. Quicherat cites both the Journal du Siege d'Orléans and the Chronique de la Pucelle. Chronologically this fits the known facts and it's mentioned in more than one source. Modern historians probably take this seriously because it offers the best explanation for Robert de Baudricourt's change of heart. The previous summer he had ridiculed her and threatened to let his guards molest her. Soon after this meeting he sent her to the king. The prediction itself might have been a lucky guess. What mattered was that people perceived it as a miracle. Durova 11:22, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French casualties

I've recently received the info via e-mail. All casualties occurred mainly in the first year:

  • on October 17 one woman died of cannon fire;
  • on October 21 ca. 200 Frenchmen died betweem Tourelles and Saint-Jean-les-Blant;
  • on January 18 one home guard arbalester died of cannon-ball in La-Belle-Croix;
  • on January 26-го it's said that one archer from the marshal's Saint-Severe company died by mistake of French cannon-ball near the Banier gates;
  • on January 29 there were many casualties, but the number is unknown;
  • on January 30 one bourgeois militiaman was deadly wounded by arrow;
  • also some casualties took place on March 19 of 1429 but the number is unknown.

In all the casualties figure is over 204. Brand 13:46, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, the siege lasted less than one year. So it would be surprising if casualties occurred outside that time span. Durova 13:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/i/e/Talk%7ESiege_of_Orl%C3%A9ans_5c2a.html"