User talk:Sicamous

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[edit] Sinatra Infobox

I don't know why you're fooling around with the infobox on Frank Sinatra. A box intended for a band, where it has no place for date and place of birth or death, which uses "origin" in place of "place of birth," and so on, is not the appropriate one for an individual singer. Please don't revert it again, or at least give some reason for your doing it. -- BRG 18:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

If you notice the infoboxes that appear in most articles that have them, they regularly duplicate information in the article because they are supposed to be summaries. So your comments about duplication of date & place of birth, etc. don't seem to be justified.
I'm aware of the problem with the extra curly braces; I've been trying to figure out how to get rid of them without success. But I think that that little problem (which, hopefully, someone will figure out how to solve) is less important than the fact that the band infobox is simply not designed for individual artists.
I wish we could find out how to work together instead of fighting. We both seem to have a goal of improving the presence on Wikipedia of the same kind of music-- obviously you like Perry Como (who is my favorite male singer, too!) and Frank Sinatra (who I like, though he's not as high up on my favorites list), so we really ought to be working together and not fighting. -- BRG 13:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
It looks like you've found a solution we can both live with. In some ways (like having a slot for the birth name, which I'd wanted to put in) I like this new template you've found better than the one that I cobbled together, though having "origin" for the place of birth looks weird to me. -- BRG 14:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the template itself, I think they intended the place of birth to be put in the same item with the date of birth, so I'm modifying this part of your Sinatra box. "Origin" was specifically for where a group or band got put together, it appears. -- BRG 15:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saturday Night with Mr. C

It looks as if some of the song titles have an extra word "Time" on the end. You probably have the track listing in hand, I don't, so could you check that? -- BRG 15:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions

You might do a little more linking, so your pages could be found more easily. For every year there is a page entitled [[<year> in music]], and these pages have a section listing albums released that year. See what I did for So Smooth. It might also be a good idea to link from your pages to songs and songwriters, as I did with a couple of your pages.

Obviously, these are suggestions, not orders, but I hope you'll do it. I think it's nice that someone as young as you is interested in this kind of music, and I hope you don't take this as a criticism! -- BRG 18:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High Society

Thanks for the article on the "High Society" album. However, as I note at high society that there are at least 3 other albums called "High Society" we also have articles on, I've moved the article to "High Society (1956 album)", as just noting "album" is not an adiquate disambiguation. Cheers, -- Infrogmation 16:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chris5897

I see you've coppied my design for your header but there are still some bugs that need to be fixed. Would you like me to fix them??? Also your userpage looks a bit of a mess, Wikipedia:WikiProject_User_Page_Help will help you with that.Chris5897 12:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I need to know what you would like on it??? What do you want to change the "Incubater" for??? Would you like new buttons???Chris5897 09:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frankie Laine

Please cease from deleting referenced material from the Frankie Laine page. If you persist, I shall have to report you for abuse. Thank you.

[edit] Re: Frankie Laine

"Clarion" does not mean "clear" -- it is a type of horn. The description was taken from the Frankie Laine entry in the Virgin Encyclopedia of Popular Song.

"Belter" should not be used in the opening description, since that was only one of many styles his art encompassed.

The phrase "first blue-eyed soul singer" appears in various biographical entries on him.

His having "cleared the way" for other black/jazz influenced artist like Bennett and Presley is well documented. Bennett's original recordings were in the Frankie Laine style ("Boulevard of Broken Dreams") and when Elvis first gained national attention, he was repeatedly referred to as "a cross between Johnnie Ray and Frankie Laine."

Your introduction of negative critical opinion re his collaborations with Mitch Miller does not belong in an unbiased article. Much like the rock 'n' roll music they preceeded, they met with initial resistance from old hat critics and Perry Comatose fans. Otoh, they were hugely popular and have retained their audiences to this day.

I'm sorry if you disagree with Mr. Whiteside's comments on Laine's significance in the development of popular song. He is a rock historian whose works include a biography on Johnnie Ray (from which the quote was extacted). If you had any understanding of the music climate of the time, you would know that Sinatra was considered washed up in the early 50s. He was fired from Columbia, and RCA (the label he wanted) passed on hiring him. A famed article "Gone on Frankie in '42 -- Gone in '52" detailed how his fans had abandoned him for the likes of Laine and Ray. It may not sit well with you, but, hey, that's showbiz, pally.

[edit] Re: Frankie Laine

Further: Anita O'Day was coached vocally by Frankie Laine when, as a 14-year old, she worked with him on the Marathon Dance circuit.

Laine's record sales are most likely in the 275 million range: an estimated 125 million in the US and 150 million abroad. These numbers were verified from multiple sources prior to posting. As estimates vary, I went with the lower estimate of 250 million.

Quoted passages of 3 or more lines are set in italics. That is the standard practice in publishing.

[edit] Re Frankie Laine

John Williams, another source you've removed as "fan gush" is a renowned film composer (probably the most influential of the latter half of the 20th C.) whose scores include those of "Star Wars," "Jaws," "Close Encounters of the Third Kind," "Raiders of the Lost Ark," "Schindler's List," "Superman," "ET," et. al. He arranged and conducted several of Laine's greatest albums from the early 60s, and is certainly a valid source for Laine-related material.

[edit] Reply (Re: Frankie Laine)

Sicamous: Whether I like it or not is not the point. I like Frankie Laine, I have lots of his music, in fact, I listening to his version of "I beleive" right now. He was very good. However its the article that I have a problem with, it has too POV material

Me (Scarlotti): The article puts forward no unsupported opinions on Laine. The views expressed are those of important singers, arrangers, record producers who worked with him, and music historians.

Sicamous: First of all, Clarion, as used as a adjective, a describing word for those who failed school, means clear [1], used as a noun, a thing in this case, it means a Roman Instrument, what you were referring too. I believe you are using it to describe his voice, thus an adjective, so I believe it means clear.

Scarlotti: As noted, the phrase was taken literally from the Virgin Encyclopedia of Music. Laine has stated that he modeled his delivery to a large extent on a jazz trumpet (specifically Armstrong's). His voice has similarly often been compared to a horn.

Sicamous: I use belter because that is how he sang, a belter is not a style of music, like R and B, it is a technique in which to sing. For example, Bing Crosby was always a crooner, even on the albums he sang heavy jazz, he still sang as a crooner, which is a technique, a way in which the vocal chords are used a the breadth is controlled. As Al Jolson was always a belter, even when he pretended to be a crooner. This is how he sang. Any one who understands the technicality singing, as I try to, knows being a belter is great talent, which sadly is mostly lost today.

Scarlotti: Agreed. Except for the fact that Laine doesn't belt on all of his records. As one d.j. described his voice: He has "the virility of a goat, and the delicacy of a flower petal." The belter description only captures the virility half.

Sicamous: The phrase first blue-eyed soul singer appears in various biographical entries on him this may be true, but he does not appear in the wikipedia article on the subject, see Blue-eyed soul.

Scarlotti: Wikipedia is not the final word on any subject.

Sicamous: Although it makes sense. He is no crooner. But, in the Frankie Laine article singing loud is equated with singing better.

Scarlotti: It isn't. First, singing loud was not the issue -- singing with emotion, rhythm, soul, is. Second, no value judgement was meant to be implied. That Laine (and the singers who followed him) made the old fashioned crooners almost an anachronism (Whiteside quote)is a historical observation. Much as rock and roll did to traditional pop.

Sicamous: This not always the case. I think your, and I might add rude, comment on Perry Comotose shows you bias toward Frankie Laine and you lack of respect toward crooners.

Scarlotti: I apologize for the "Comatose" remark. I just wanted to show that there are a lot of negative opinions regarding Como as well (which were not included in your Como article). I'm a big fan of Bing, if that helps any. I like some of Como's records, but wouldn't count myself as a fan.

Sicamous: His (Frankie Laine) having cleared the way for other black/jazz influenced artist like Bennett and Presley is well documented If so, please show me. I know I have this quote from Tony Bennett "I call myself a Bing Crosby singer.' I was very influenced by Bing. I liked the essence of Bing." [2]] (Scroll down to Tony). As for Elvis, I believe Elvis biggest influence among popular singer was Dean Martin See [3]

Scarlotti: Bennett's early recordings have been called "Frankie Laine" copies ("Blvd of Broken Dreams" being an obvious example). A pre-successful Bennett auditioned "Satan Wears a Satin Gown" to Laine, who gave Bennett early encouragement.

Here's one quote: "Along with Nat King Cole, who burst on the scene with his trio and a recording of "Sweet Lorraine" a year earlier, Laine became a leader in the popularity of the pop singer over the big bands of the previous decade. His success helped set the pattern for the later song stylists like Elvis Presley, Johnny Ray, Tony Bennett and Tom Jones, all of whom were influenced in one form or another by his style, particularly Bennett and Jones." (From The Sammy Cahn Life Achievement Award)

Elvis, as noted, was described by multiple sources as being "a cross between Johnnie Ray and Frankie Laine." He also remade his fair share of Laine hits including "I Believe" and "You Gave Me a Mountain" (the latter of which he stated he recorded after seeing Laine sing it in Vegas).

Sicamous: "Your introduction of negative critical opinion re his collaborations with Mitch Miller does not belong in an unbiased article." Ahh, but it does, to balance. Mitch Miller is known by critics as a particularly poor producer, but for everyone, not just Frankie Laine. He shoved so many Novelty tunes on too so many singer. Just as he did for Sinatra and Rosemary Clooney (Mama Bark and Come-on-A My House, respectively) Also, my quote is sourced from allmusic, which is recommend explicitly by wikipedia, see here Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums.

Scarlotti: Only as the "Comatose" nickname would "balance" your Como article. I have long believed that the negative opinion of Miller stems from Sinatra's public grousings. Miller was the driving force behind many of my favorite recordings, and IMO the greatest musical genius of the 20th century. Sinatra attacked anyone and everything (musical style) he felt threatened by. Hence his attacks on Laine, Clooney, Ray, Miller, rock, etc.

Miller gave Laine "That Lucky Old Sun," which is hardly a "novelty" song and (again IMO) is the greatest song ever recorded.

Sicamous: Anita O'Day may have been coached by him, she would have pretty good one if she did, it just does not even mention Frankie Laine at all on her wikipedia article.

Scarlotti: Wiki articles aren't the last word on anything.

Here's the quote referred to:

DM: I’m going to go back to something early in your ...career. You and a very young Anita O’Day were in the same place at the same time. FL: Oh, yes. Marathon dancing in 1935 in Chicago at a place called the Arcadia Ballroom. She was 14, but they didn't know it. I think I was about 23. She used to walk beside me during the early hours of the morning and ask me questions about why I phrased a certain way and why I sang certain notes a certain way. I said, “I don't know. I'm just singing them the way I feel them.” They found out she was only 14 years old and she was already singing pretty good. They pulled her off the floor. She was too young. But she got a ...job and got going before I did --- wound up as a singer with Gene Krupa before I did, and she tried to help me. We're friends today, but I never see her. When she first came out to California, she lived in Studio City, I think, in the San Fernando Valley. I saw her a few times there, but I don't know how she's doing today. She's in her 70s now and she's still ...working, still singing.

The word "mentor" was used regarding O'Day in at least one article (which I can't locate at present).

Sicamous: As for sales they always vary, the biggest I've seen is Crosby, which ranges 400 Million to a billion. I used the source I deemed most accurate, the sourced used now are from a fan site, usually a wikipedia no-no. For example, the Perry Como sales are taken from the BBC.

Scarlotti: I linked it to a fan site, because the other sources are not online. I own several books on Laine, and the generally accepted numbers are as stated: 125m US + 150m Abroad.

Sicamous: "I'm sorry if you disagree with Mr. Whiteside's comments on Laine's significance in the development of popular song. He is a rock historian whose works include a biography on Johnnie Ray (from which the quote was extacted). If you had any understanding of the music climate of the time, you would know that Sinatra was considered washed up in the early 50s. He was fired from Columbia, and RCA (the label he wanted) passed on hiring him." Yes you are quite right, Sinatra was one of the bigger singers of the 40's (I believe second only to Crosby) but he began to decline and by the fifties he was almost forgotten. This is very well known. I belive it was even rumored he tried to kill himself during this time (around 1952) when he saw an Eddie Fisher theater billing. Columbia records did did not renew his contract because he refused to sing the material he was forced to sing by the likes of Mitch Miller. RCA passed him by, but he was signed by Capital records. His first LP with them, Songs for Young Lovers, in 1953, was a huge hit, as with is succeeding LPs, Songs for Swinging Lovers, Come Fly with Me with Neslon Ridde, Billy May and Gordan Jenkine and the like. Now, I am not trying to say Sinatra is better, many people on his page try to make him out to be the best, I just feel that to say he made Sinatra seem archiac is just dead wrong. There were many, many crooners who still retain popularity today. I even believe Al Jolson has his own "society" who suceeding in renaming a street near Broadway's after him. Bing Crosby just had an acclaimed book written about him recently, so I would say that many singers still retain their popularity, this is a moot point.

Scarlotti: I'm also a BIG Jolson fan.

Neither Whiteside nor I am saying that Sinatra was made "archaic" for all time. Only at *that* time. Laine's r&b influenced style was a link in the movement to rock 'n' roll and at the time the music he ushered in, made the older crooning styles decidedly unhip.

The Whiteside quote is crucial to understanding the impact of Laine on the music scene in the pre-rock era, as well as understanding his initial mystique (which was later superceded by his western persona). A desperate Sinatra would don a coonskin cap during his performances and honk like a goose in derision of Laine's 1950 hit, "Cry of the Wild Goose." When Sinatra stoops to that level, you gotta know he's hurting. His style of music had come under attack -- and was losing ground to the newer style.

Sicamous: Please, Report me for abuse. By all means.

Scarlotti: I would prefer not to. But I spent a long time researching this article, and hate to see my work eradicated on what I feel are unjust grounds. If the information is incorrect, I welcome the corrections. But cutting important quotations, like Whiteside, as "fan gush" is something I'm not going to take sitting down.

Sicamous: I hope you can see my concerns. Hitlers article does not explicitly say that he was a bad man, as Frankie Laines article explicitly says he was next to God, bigger than Elvis and The Beatles and better that Sinatra and "comotose".

Scarlotti: It says none of those things. It says that he was bigger than Elvis in the UK (see the UK Chart of All Time) during the 50s; and that neither Elvis nor the Beatles have beaten his UK chart records (which they haven't). Elvis and the Beatles are being pointed up because of their legendary status. His UK chart records beat 2 of the biggest acts of the 20th C. That's a big achievement and worthy of mention.

God isn't mentioned (regardless of my own opinions in the matter), and no value judgement was made regarding Sinatra or Como. Sinatra is believed by Laine to be his cousin, and he and Como were friends since the 30s (he saved Como's son from drowning in the 40s). For a Laine article to be against either crooner would be in opposition to Laine's own feelings, and therefore, invalid.

Sicamous: Hitler article is merely unbiased facts, which, should speak for themselves. While there are many of your claims I do not doubt they do not belong in Wikipedia. I hope we can work together, as we both wish to see more of this kind of music on wikipedia. Especially as fans of the still thriving Frankie Laine.

Scarlotti: I hope we can as well.

[edit] And, really, speaking of POV:

Pierino Ronald "Perry" Como (May 18, 1912 – May 12, 2001) was an American crooner during the 20th century. Throughout a career spanning more than half a century he recorded exclusively for the RCA Victor label after signing with them in 1943. He sold millions of records for RCA but he also pioneered a weekly musical variety television show which set the standard and proved one of the most successful in television history. His combined success on television and popular recordings HAS NEVER BEEN EQUALLED BY ANY OTHER ARTIST OF THE TIME.

A popular television performer and recording artist, Perry Como achieved numerous hit records throughout the world with RECORD SALES SO HIGH THE LABEL LITERALLY STOPPED COUNTING AT COMO'S BEHEST. His weekly television shows and seasonal specials were broadcast throughout the world for which HIS POPULARITY SEEMINGLY HAD NO GEOGRAPHICAL OR LANGUAGE BOUNDARIES. He was equally at ease in live performance or in the confines of a recording studio. HIS APPEAL SPANNED GENERATIONS and he was widely respected for both his professional standards and the conduct of his personal life. In the official RCA Records Billboard Magazine memorial, his life was summed up in these few words: "50 years of music and a life well lived. AN EXAMPLE TO ALL."

Well known American composer Ervin Drake said of him, " . . . occasionally someone like Perry comes along and won't "go with the flow" and still prevails in spite of all the bankrupt others who surround him and importune him to yield to their values. Only occasionally."

      • End Quote**

What were you saying about being next to God?

-)

[edit] ROUND TWO

Sicamous: First of all, I did not write the opening of the Perry Como article, I have written very little on the page, the only thing I have done is added the infobox. I have focused on his LPs. But, they did actually stop counting record sales at his behest, and I am certainly no where near old enough to remember how popular his TV' show was.

Scarlotti: That's ok. It doesn't bother me that the Como article is an even bigger fan gush than my Laine one. Most of the singer sites tend to go that way. (Patting my own back) I think the Laine article is one of the lesser offenders in this regard.  :)

Sicamous: Speaking of Lps, do you know of any source that would list Lains major LPs (not compilations or anything like that), so I could begin on his, in the I have done Como, see So Smooth

Scarlotti: The lainefan.com site that's linked up to the article actually lists the tracks for all of his albums. I like the work you've done so far with Frankie's albums (and with Perry's). You can get all the information from it. It doesn't always open on the first try, but it's there. His albums are (major ones starred with *): "Mr. Rhythm"* (the first recorded specifically as an album), 1954; "Jazz Spectacular"* 1955, with Buck Clayton; "Frankie Laine and The Four Lads"*, 1956; "Rockin'"*, 1957; "Foreign Affair" with Michel LeGrand, 1958 (a spectacular multi-language failure); "Torchin'" 1958; "You Are My Love" 1959; "Reunion in Rhythm"* with Michel LeGrand, 1959; "Balladeer" 1960 (my personal favorite); "Hell Bent For Leather"* 1961; "Deuces Wild" and "Call of the Wild" both 1962; "Wanderlust" 1963; "I Believe" (his only album for Capitol,) 1965; "I'll Take Care of Your Cares"* (his comeback album) 1967; "I Wanted Someone to Love" 1967; "To Each His Own" and "Take Me Back To Laine Country" 1968; "You Gave Me A Mountain"* 1969; "Frankie Laine's Greatest Hits" 1970; "A Brand New Day" 1971; "20 Memories In Gold" 1977; "Life is Beautiful" 1978; "The World of Frankie Laine" 1982; "Place in Time" 1985; "A Country Laine" 1986; "Round-Up" with Erich Kunzel, 1987; "New Directions" 1988; "Wheels of a Dream"* 1998; "It Ain't Over 'Till It's Over" 1998; "Old Man Jazz" 2002 and "Nashville Connection" 2003 (both great albums).

Me (Scarlotti): The article puts forward no unsupported opinions on Laine. The views expressed are those of important singers, arrangers, record producers who worked with him, and music historians.

Sicamous: It does have, to say he has stlye, is POV. To say he excelled at every type of music is POV. To say he was first and biggest is POV.

Scarlotti: He's often described in reference books like AMG, his hit records back it up. R&B "That's My Desire" - Folk-Americana "That Lucky Old Sun" - Western "Mule Train" - Novelty "Sugarbush" - country "You're Cheatin' Heart" - Gospel "Rain, Rain, Rain". Big hits all. And to say he was the first and biggest of the black-influenced post WWII artists is simply history. Who else was there in 1946 when "That's My Desire" first came out? Kay Starr was around, but nowhere near the charts at this time. Johnnie Ray wouldn't appear for another 5 years.

And compare "style" to the POV on the Como article: "he so clearly is: one of the GREAT SINGERS and one of the GREAT ARTIST LOF OUR TIME. Perhaps the reason people rarely talk about his FORMIDABLE ATTRIBUTES as a singer is that he makes so little fuss about them." & co.

Sicamous: That's My Desire" remains a landmark record signaling the end of both the big bands and the crooning styles favored by contemporaries Dick Haymes and Frank Sinatra. If you are to have this, you must specify that you don't mean "forever. Many of the things I have a problem are wordings, that can be changed. Without really changing the article.

Scarlotti: I don't think the specification should be necessary: everyone knows that Sinatra went on to become an Icon. But if you insist, I'll see if I can do something.

Scarlotti: As noted, the phrase was taken literally from the Virgin Encyclopedia of Music. Laine has stated that he modeled his delivery to a large extent on a jazz trumpet (specifically Armstrong's).

Sicamous: His voice has similarly often been compared to a horn. According to this site [4], used as an adjective it means loud and clear, either way, they both describe Lains voice. Although, I do not believe they had Jazz during the middle ages, as it was a medieval instrument. Yes, many singer modelled their voices after horns, I have read that Bing Crosby modelled his after the cornet of Bix Beiderbecke.

Scarlotti: Agreed. Except for the fact that Laine doesn't belt on all of his records. As one d.j. described his voice: He has "the virility of a goat, and the delicacy of a flower petal." The belter description only captures the virility half.

Sicamous: I disagree with this statements, I believe Frankie Laine always remained a belter, whether he sang quietly or not, however I see how see can be misconstrued, to mean that he only sang loud.

Scarlotti: To me, it's more than just a matter of loud. I think that many of his love songs are extremely subdued. Have you heard his version of "Because" -- it's even more intimate than Como's.

Scarlotti (quoted) It isn't. First, singing loud was not the issue -- singing with emotion, rhythm, soul, is. Second, no value judgement was meant to be implied. That Laine (and the singers who followed him) made the old fashioned crooners almost an anachronism (Whiteside quote)is a historical observation. Much as rock and roll did to traditional pop.

Sicamous: I disagree in this point, although Frankie Laine certainly had a new style, I don't think it made crooners an anachronism, whether Whiteside thinks so or not. However, this is perfectly legitimate as a quote, however when I started editing the article on Frankie Liane it was explicitly mentioned as a fact.

Scarlotti: It shouldn't have been. Probably an error made during all the late night cutting & pastings in getting the article into shape.

Scarlotti: I apologize for the "Comatose" remark. I just wanted to show that there are a lot of negative opinions regarding Como as well (which were not included in your Como article). I'm a big fan of Bing, if that helps any. I like some of Como's records, but wouldn't count myself as a fan.

Sicamous: I am quite aware that there are lots of negative opinions of Perry Como, I , in fact, did not like him up until quite recently. This is mostly his fault, as he sang so many of those awful novelty songs. I only got to like him when I dug a little deeper into some of his, less known (compared to his wildly popular novelty songs), but very good original LPs. Many people only think Como sang those novelty songs (hot diggity, Catch a falling star),but this is like saying all Crosby sang was White Christmas and all Frankie Laine sang was Mule Train.

Scarlotti: I like several of his non-novelty songs ("Prisoner of Love," "Bali Hai," "When You Were Sweet Sixteen," etc., and even some of the novelties). It's just that his voice never connects with me on the same level as Laine's or Crosby's.

Scarlotti: Bennett's early recordings have been called "Frankie Laine" copies ("Blvd of Broken Dreams" being an obvious example). A pre-successful Bennett auditioned "Satan Wears a Satin Gown" to Laine, who gave Bennett early encouragement. I just wanted to present evidence, which my or may not be contrary. I think Tony Bennett has both influences, to this is fine.

Only as the "Comatose" nickname would "balance" your Como article. I have long believed that the negative opinion of Miller stems from Sinatra's public grousings. Miller was the driving force behind many of my favorite recordings, and IMO the greatest musical genius of the 20th century. Sinatra attacked anyone and everything (musical style) he felt threatened by. Hence his attacks on Laine, Clooney, Ray, Miller, rock, etc.

Sicamous: There is mention of the Comotose in his article, where Perry Como was watching SCTV and they did a scit, Perry Como Still alive, where he the actor playing Como was in a "Comotose" state. Como greatly enjoyed these scits. Also, I took my quote from all music about the "schmaltz" , I have no opinion on any of of Mitch Millers songs as I have never listened to them, at least his collaborations with Sinatra, I try to stick to the Capital, Reprise stuff. Please see [5]

Scarlotti: Well, the comatose skit isn't quite the same as saying he was nicknamed "Perry Comatose" by detractors. "Schmaltz" is a phrase I dislike. It's generally used to describe the lush, violin-filled orchestrations of the 50s (which Laine mostly stayed away from -- he's usually backed by a guitar, bass, piano, drum and some horns). I like the "schmaltz", however -- Right now I'm listening to "Wanting and Loving" by Felicia Sanders, which would probably count as "schmaltz."

Scarlotti (quote) Miller gave Laine "That Lucky Old Sun," which is hardly a "novelty" song and (again IMO) is the greatest song ever recorded.

Sicamous: You can not quantitatively state the greatest song ever recorded, although it would be appreciated if you can point me toward place where I could listen to a preview of this song, like amazon.

Scarlotti: He recorded 5 or 6 versions of it. My favorite is the 1957 version on his "Rockin' Album" -- it's also on his "Greatest Hits" album -- the first one the comes up at Amazon.

Scarlotti (quote): Neither Whiteside nor I am saying that Sinatra was made "archaic" for all time. Only at *that* time. Laine's r&b influenced style was a link in the movement to rock 'n' roll and at the time the music he ushered in, made the older crooning styles decidedly unhip.

Sicamous: Yes you are right, although unhip is different from Archaic, or something the belongs in a different time, I would be perfectly content with unhip as the wording.

Scarlotti: That's okay -- I think the quote is gone now anyway.

Scarlotti: The Whiteside quote is crucial to understanding the impact of Laine on the music scene in the pre-rock era, as well as understanding his initial mystique (which was later superceded by his western persona). A desperate Sinatra would don a coonskin cap during his performances and honk like a goose in derision of Laine's 1950 hit, "Cry of the Wild Goose." When Sinatra stoops to that level, you gotta know he's hurting. His style of music had come under attack -- and was losing ground to the newer style.

Sicamous: I agree, but you must point out only for that time. Although the Frank Sinatra article does no such favours, it goes on and on how great Sinatra is.

Scarlotti: I really think it's generally known that Sinatra is one of the 5 biggest musicians of the 20th C (Jolson, Crosby, Sinatra, Presley, The Beatles). Obviously, Sinatra recovered from Laine, Ray, Miller and Rock. (But as per above, I'll see if I can note it without making it sound daft.)

Scarlotti (quote): It says none of those things. It says that he was bigger than Elvis in the UK (see the UK Chart of All Time) during the 50s; and that neither Elvis nor the Beatles have beaten his UK chart records (which they haven't). Elvis and the Beatles are being pointed up because of their legendary status. His UK chart records beat 2 of the biggest acts of the 20th C. That's a big achievement and worthy of mention. Of course, and I never deleted that he set two chart records, or the reference.

Scarlotti (quote) God isn't mentioned (regardless of my own opinions in the matter),

Sicamous: Frankie Lains "I believe" must not have been very convincing to you.

Scarlotti: Well, he isn't trying to convince me. The ending lines "Every time I hear a newborn baby cry/Or touch a leaf/Or see the sky" never fail to get me misty eyed.

Scarlotti (quote): No value judgement was made regarding Sinatra or Como. Sinatra is believed by Laine to be his cousin, and he and Como were friends since the 30s (he saved Como's son from drowning in the 40s). For a Laine article to be against either crooner would be in opposition to Laine's own feelings, and therefore, invalid.

Sicamous: To me, it sure seemed that way. Although I was not familiar that they were cousins, I know that they were all Italian, and all liked each other.

Scarlotti: I can understand why you might read it that way, but that was how his style affected the music scene in those days. He was one of the first big pop idols (like Sinatra before him, he had legions of bobbysoxers, known as "Lainettes") and was disliked by many people from the older generation who saw his style of singing as the end of the big band/crooner era.

It's not 100% certain that he and Sinatra were cousins. Laine had his ancestry traced in the 50s and found that there was a Sinatra in his ancestral lineage (from the same area of Sicily as Sinatra's family). Sicilian records from the time aren't extant enough to establish a direct blood connection -- but it's highly probable. Sinatra took to calling Laine "Cousino" after Laine told him.

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