Talk:Shuppet

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Shuppet has been listed as a good article under the good-article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can delist it, or ask for a review.

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[edit] unofficial GA review

i saw Shuppet was nominated for a GA and subsequently went through it with a fine-tooth comb. I was originally going to fail it, but because of history with the nominator/main contributor i have decided instead to post my views so that they, or others can instead improve upon it.

Firstly, there is the problem that both the intro and char. sections frequently talk in a future tense (using would), however this is dropped for the rest of the article.

The sentence, "Shuppet can be obtained by breeding... to produce a Shuppet." needs to be fixed, and the last two sentences of that same paragraph:

"Banette can be obtained in various versions of the games, including Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness, where it can be snagged, captured from a trainer,[6] from Litnar, a Peon level member of the evil Cipher organization. They can also be found wild in the Advanced generation games, within the Sky Pillar dungeon, and the Pokémon Diamond and Pearl versions of the series, where they can be found within Hard Mountain, during the game's night cycle, or in surrounding routes.[7]"

are long, filled with unnecessary info that makes it a more difficult read and makes it easy to create self-redundant, awkward sentences. e.g. - "They can also be found... in the foo games... and the bar versions..., where they can be found here... or there.

in the anime paragraph the types of pokemon that the trainers are carrying should be removed, the sentence works fine without it, and Pochama will eventually evolve. Additionally, the fact that Torchic eventually evolved into Combusken makes it confusing since May is referred to as owning both, and as the article is written one could construe that Hikari is present during the events.

there are two game-guide things that need attention - the fact that shuppet are more common in two of the games is not worth mentioning unless you briefly discuss how the variance in rarity is an imorptant aspect of the pokemon games as a whole. the other thing is saying how banette can be caught from Litnar, a peon in whatever... it's enough to say that banette can be snagged

of minor mention are the fact that this article is ref-loaded and it would be nice to have a see also.

-Zappernapper 03:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Points -

• • The first two aren't in the future tense, they're in out-universe perspective, it's just the way you make them sound fictional
  • Fixed the breeding mistake
  • The Banette section is fine, it's padded with enough info to not come across as a game guidey list, and it's documented enough to make it encyclopedic
  • The anime intro is generic for all articles, go to PCP and complain with the problems. Are you suggesting that until Pochama evolves, there is no point mentioning it?
  • The Blaziken/Torchic situation is cited at both sections, and the fact that they are different points in the series is clear enough that it evolves from Torchic to Blaziken
  • The three Pokémon are listed in the same order as the trainers are mentioned in the previous sentence
  • The scene doesn't mention Hikari whatsoever, why would people make the connection that she was there if she isn't mentioned. More to the point, would it make any difference if Hikari was there, if she didn't do anything notable?
  • The fact that Shuppet is more common in two versions helps define the notability between the games, I don't think you need to explain rarity of something in the games, because it's not that different from the rarity of things in real life
  • The snagging thing was brought in Paras (Pokémon) GA nom, so that's why that's there.
  • Pokémon articles as a standard also don't contain See alsos because any notable links should be in the text

Thanks for your points, Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 21:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• Other articles work fine sounding out-of-universe without "would". Perhaps it's a difference in regional dialect. The point is that you use "would" for a while, then leave off, never using it again... in the same section. If you're going to use it in that matter be consistent. however i'm suggesting that you not, because that use of "would" isn't commonly seen in other species articles.
• I wasn't saying the Banette section was game-guidey or undocumented, i was noting the structure. Perhaps you've read it over too many times yourself... just try to make it flow a little better.
• As for the anime intro, no... it's not generic for all articles. Only the ones that you personally add it to. This isn't technically a project concern, it's an article concern, and as such it should be addressed on the talk page. If you're suggesting I post on the project page for a third opinion, i agree that may be appropriate. Otherwise, you keep referring to this "unoffical" style guide for featured articles, and until you bring it up for consensus i won't listen to arguments based on it. i'll address the Pochama issue in a bit...
• as for the Blaziken/Torchic and Hikari issues, again i ask you to carefully reread how it is written, you may have been reading it for too long, or be letting your own prior knowledge of the subject influence how you read it. you don't make it clear that they are at different points in the series. she is mentioned being in the anime in the preceding paragraph, that's why a connection is implicit. It matters regardless of notability because it is misleading and can give people the wrong impression.
• i don't understand "The three Pokémon are listed in the same order as the trainers are mentioned in the previous sentence" I didn't say there was anything actually wrong with the order, moreso just the fact that they are listed as this is info that can change - specifically, Pochama may evolve, and then you'll have to go through and change all the articles to reflect the current situation. You should try to write in a timeless sense as much as possible, especially when writing about fiction:

Using the episodes as reference, he or she writes, "Finn-class starfighters have purple shielding and can fly faster than Mach 3." But how do we really know that all Finn-class starships have purple shielding? What if there are green ones that just have not been introduced yet? And what if later episodes show that Finn-class starships come in slower or faster varieties, too? The editor has made an inference, based on limited fictional information. Framing things from the perspective of our own universe eliminates the problem altogether: "In Episode 37, Commander Kinkaid obtains a Finn-class starfighter with purple shielding. Vice Admiral Hancock calls the ship 'a real space ripper' and says that she can 'make it past Mach 3'."

• the first example is subject to changes, while the second is not... b/c it's not really important who has what pokepal, it should be avoided by removal.
• it seems you share my view that the rarity differences between games is notable... i'm not trying to say you should discuss rarity i'm saying you should briefly note how the differences of rarity between games is a notable aspect of the pokemon franchise. otherwise the difference in rarity of Shuppet is merely a guide.
• I read the comment from Paras. It would seem that I have a difference in opinion. What the other person said was a suggestion, surely not the only way to go about improving the article. I suppose i'm sort of exclusionist, i tend to think only details that speficially matter to the subject should be included (you'll remember my opinion on Quilava's anime section). The name of the Peon and what organization he belongs to isn't important to describing Shuppet itself. While it's true you are improving the sentence by saying who Peon X is. It's a better improvement to just remove Peon X and leave it at the fact Bannette can be snagged as a means to obtain Shuppet.
• as for the See also "standard", you are again imposing a standard not agreed upon by the PCP. reach consensus before you attach the word standard to anything you do. It is not addressed in WP:PCP/S so apparently there isn't any standard about it either way. regardless, the section was merely a suggestion, and is purely stylistic. FACs and GACs all often have these sections so it doesn't seem that they detract from the article. In my own opinion they improve navigation because often times someone may want to finish reading an article before they go on to something else. See also sections help by providing likely topics they may want to explore (personally, "Game mechanics" should be in every species See also section).

you said that you fixed the breeding sentence, but instead you made it inaccurate on top of poorly structured. Essentially the sentence said that to produce Shuppet you breed a Banette to produce a Banette. The problem was multiple uses of produce or synonyms. Not the pokemon produced. I've corrected it to my liking so that you can more easily see what i'm talking about. -Zappernapper 18:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)