Talk:Shri Ram Chandra Mission/Archive 1
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Undisputed to Authenticated
Hi spaceman..and all...
I changed the word "Undisputed" to "authenticated" because as you know, there was another document but this one was not authenticated by the committee, so in case that comes up in the future, there will already be a counter in our wording leaving only one authenticated document but with disputed wording as to the spiritual aspect of the SRCM. Which I am sure the political aspect is what Chari wants cleared. Also, we can't stop the claim of the wording without having the document for all to see anyway. But we can address the other with the word "authenticated. OK??
See you...
Don
Don And Spaceman Discussion
Hi all (spaceman)
Good edit...I agree with most of what you say...
The way to put in a Point of view statement On wikipedia,as the gay and lesbian statement is to say "Many abhyasis claim to know gays or lesbians in SRCM" or something like that...That is an unproveable statement and is not a fact but an opinion. But when the leader makes a statement, it is a fact for that institution until retracted. The "product" (what SRCM is selling) of Sahaj Marg is "spirituality" with includes all the qualities tolerance, openness, non-sectarianism, no defaming or ridiculing other religions as Chari has done in his recent speech, with the Catholic priests in Denmark (regarding confession). That is the "proof of the pudding" of spirituality. Chari starts controversy so as to gather numbers, and then you (the servants) scream "abuse". If the Catholic Church in Denmark begins action againsT SRCM you will understand why....do not blame them.
The Techniques
The practice and the techniques to achieve the stated goal are another thing. I will not challenge that as it originates with SRCM, but SRCM should reveal what the techniques are (all of them). The "Obedience" to the Guru, for instance is very important to Chari as he mentions it all the time in the litterature and speeches. It should be part of the entries in the encyclopedia also. All of the statements of the Leader should be available to the "curious" and searcher, not just a selected few as propaganda. That is just honest.
Fear Mongering
What most people fear is the unknown. If they are researching because of loved ones being involve in a group, it is because they want to know the truth so as to minimize the "unknown". Most adults can deal with the truth. The prophesies in the litterature and the Channelled "Whispers" are more frightening that what I will say to them. The "special personality" who's job it is to "destroy" is not a "spiritual" but an apocalyptic and religious fear mongering. I do not write those things although I could. It is a gift we all have but do not use so as to leave the future free from our "imprints" or samskaras. I do not play at spirituality I live it.
The statement that SRCM has to defend itself about are the statements and the actions it does itself. Like all institutions, if we can get them to adhere to their own rules, we would have a paradise. You do not have to prove anything but you cannot undo other's statements also. If someone disputes the succession for instance, that is a fact. SRCM does not have to prove anything. You cannot deny that the "dispute" is there. That is all....Democracy....Information, not propaganda...and not controlled. You do not have to convince me of you innocence, I know you are innocent. It is about SRCM that we talk about. As an institution, it has a history and that is "registered" and can be documented. History does not constitute "the truth", but people have to decide what they believe. The Hero in one history is a "traitor" in another history. Same with SRCM. Some see it as a sect (cult) and those inside do not. Of course. Wikipedia can accomodate both. That is good. No debate about the truth of the issue but exposing all the "points of view" on the issues, including those who are not favourable to you.
Succession
That includes respecting Mr Narayana, Saxena etc... On your site you don't have to relate to them at all, here you do. This is the truly spiritual (respect one another) site. One is not right and the other wrong. Both have different points of view. Some get their revelations from their dreams, some get them from their Master and some are requested to "be tested" by others etc....All have a place at Wikipedia without judgement.
I will not comment on Chari's character or job, some people like that some don't. If someone claims to represent Someone else who is in my Life (the DIVINE), I can challenge that statement. And demand proof. For instance, the DIVINE does not insist on OBEDIENCE for me but leaves me free to "think" and to use logic. His representative should do that also. ...
Just a request: Chari could encourage all the abhyasis to make peace with their families and friends as a good will gesture. (show some caring, love, compassion etc, the spiritual qualities to show that they are spiritual and safe with SRCM). The ones I am in contact with have become "dense" and cannot use logic easity and constantly "defend" or "ignore", are uncaring, etc.....That is a symptom of manipulation not spirituality. That would alleviate the suffering and concern cause by SRCM since Chari has been involved.
Other issues...
As far as disservice to the many happy abhyasis, I do not serve them but I serve the Truth. There are one billion catholics and most are good people but the Catholic church as many other churches and sects, as intitutions, have been found guilty of historic atrocities by history. Wikipedia is Dynamic History. It is history as it happens.
About the money, I know institutions need money that is why spirituality was always the job (the endeavour) of Ascetics and maybe a few Mahatma Ghandis, which we can see did not become "materialist" or idolatrous. The searcher had to find the Master. Now the some Masters need money so they can go and find the Searcher or to create searchers. It's marketing and it needs money....
When an instittution starts using Structures, (temples, schools) and "images" it stops being spiritual (inner journey) and become a religion (outer journey, proselytizing etc..). That will be recorded about SRCM under Chari, not under Lalaji or Babuji. Christ would say: Give away all the money!!...Away with the material and into the spiritual. But that is not SRCM. So let us record that.
About the "witch hunt" in France targeting non-catholic institutions. That is not accurate. The French history records their revolutions were to take power from all religions, including the Holy Roman Catholic Church, which really was an Empire (the remnants of the Roman Empire). That includes "divine rights of kings" and now could include "divine rights of gurus". People have lost their lives for this cause and they do not want another "totalitarian" religion to get a foothold on their soil. Specially one who demands "obedience" and allegiance above all. I agree with the French. Democracy is to be defended against Theocracy, including the Christian Churches. specially those that have a history of atrocities (In India, research Brahmanism, Aryanism, read the Dalits and the Dravidian acounts of encounters with these). When the leader represents God or claims to be the "flesh and blood incarnation of God, as in SRCM, and has all the political power in an institution, it is a theocracy. Does that sound like SRCM? Canadian SRCM has 4 Canadians and 7 foreigners on the Board of Directors. Is that democracy.
About Money. You bring up the same argument as all institutions that do a few token good deeds to justify their gathering pools of money from the "average joe". Some examples:
Nazism is humanitarian see all the good deeds it did for the German poor. (Aryan Nation) Sugar in moderation is good for kids, see all the good deeds the sugar industry does in the world. (Big Sugar PR) Coke is good for the world, it creates job in poor countries. And the list goes on....
If SRCM wants to open its books to the public, we can see. If it won't, we will wonder why not? It's not only the donations but the "selective" donations for maximum PR (911, the Tsunami and not Darfur or the Palestian (Muslim) cause. In the Gurjarat massacres, the donations seem politically motivated to some (the Muslims) etc.... Open books would solve the issue and take the business and politics out of Spirituality or have it recorded in the History.
As far as Wikipedia, the issues are too many to cover here. The job here is to educate by giving all points of view in a fair forum.....Journalistic style for unproven claims, etc.
I appreciate your candor and you attempt to communicate. Although I am not a religious person, I am a spiritual person and I truly believe we can come together.I hope I've covered all your points....
Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...
4d-don
Dear Spaceman,
Point taken. There will be no more posts from my side.
A
Michael to Spaceman & Don
I agree with Spaceman that this isn't the place to post opposing views towards SRCM, but it is also not a place to sell Sahaj Marg to the masses either. This is not a PR tool for promoting SRCM, but an encylopedia. It is a place where factual information regarding SRCM and its history can be presented. Links to dissenting bloggers as well as supporters and official sites of SRCM is appropriate on this site and should not be deleted.
All I ask is that we stick with the facts, and allow accurate history of SRCM and its inner struggles to be published here where verifiable by fact. For example, Spaceman states that Naryana's establishment of ISRC was based on a dream where Babuji told him to establish it. While I haven't heard this directly, it could indeed be true and I'm certain Spaceman can provide verification of Naryana stating this. On the other hand downplaying Naryana's credibility due to an un-verifiable dream, conveniently leaves out the important historical fact that Babjui established SRCM under the identical and un-verifiable circumstances - a dream he had of Lalaji after his death. Many of Lalaji's disciples do not believe that Lalaji ever wanted an organization to be created. No other disciples of Lalaji promoted themselves as the singular successor of Lalaji, nor did they believe that Lalaji would only pass his legacy onto just one person. In fact Lalaji's brother was considered his spiritual twin. Even Babuji mentions this somewhere.
Don's frustration here is due to this kind of behavior, where historical facts about SRCM are deleted or glossed over to promote a positive, but un-factual view of SRCM. Let's keep to the facts here. If Narayana says he had a dream instructing him to establish ISRC, then state it and leave it at that. Editorializing on this fact, is the IDENTICAL behavior that Don is being admonished for. This is the place where truthful history and facts are presented, not deleted because they don't serve someones ideology.
Thats all I have to say here. As long as a link to my blog remains here, I am not going to spend much time correcting the history here. If truthfullness is deleted here, it will be available elsewhere. My only involvement from this point on is to insure that all links are preserved.
Michael
Spaceman to Don
Hi Everybody,
I think we should avoid entering a confrontation on Sahaj Marg, Srcm and Chariji here. It comes by itself BUT this board is not a place meant for that. We are to discuss the wikipedia pages here, and to make them adhere to reality (yeah, i also smile while writing it).
Don, I actually think it is a noble thing your desire to make yourself useful, trying to warn people, if that is the case, for things that are not good for them. I do also believe that people don't need to be "protected" from sahaj marg has you will agree this is not a sect and there are no risks involved (except wasting your time so to say). This wikipedia page is more about people who are curios about the system, maybe relatives of people meditating. What you do with what you wrote: you scare them to hell! Making them thing their dear ones are indeed involved in a illiberal, money oriented system. In this, yes you do a disservice to those 300.000 who peacefully practice the system and who are the silent majority who doesn't show on this page.
I've to say this place looks a bit like a court, where srcm has to defend itself from affirmations that are not completely or not absolutely true. In my country we have a basic principle when you go to court for some felony you are accused of, when the whole thing starts you are innnocent. This is the first step. Then the prosecutor etc. etc. has to DEMONSTRATE with due means that you are guilty. Here we start from: you are guilty, show me your good will if you want to convince me. So let's start saying the Chariji is the legitimate successor of Babuji. Because so many things have proved it in the years (for those who have observed) not just one letter. Then if somebody disagrees with it, please bring in some more facts. With due respect to Mr. Narayan, anybody can wake up and say, I dreamt Babuji and he told me I'm THE REAL Master ! Also one of the sons of Babuji declared himself the spiritual successor of Babuji, even though Babuji itself said succession cannot go from father to son.
Look at what Chariji has been doing in this years and decide for yourself, rather than speak with 2-3 angry person which show (as it is natural) their point of view.
As you can imagine, it is unlikely that a person would come here and start a discussion on his/her being gay in respect of master's statements. It is a very private thing, between them and master, let it be like that. Speaking about this with my wife I was reminded that a secretary that worked in a country for srcm for many years (maybe still now) is gay. And my friend from europe who is also gay, was made preceptor last year. And Master knew that when he made him preceptor. So please stop removing the statement about gays. There are gays in the mission, therefore it has the right to appear on the page.
About Chariji,
I've observed him for the past 9 years. If somebody offered me to be at this place....I wouldn't accept. Only if you have been around with him you know how though is to be where he is. First, He doesn't benefit from the money that go around in the mission (which go for the maintenance of the ashrams and so on) he doesn't have jacuzzis, cars etc. in the north of india, in february (it is a rather cold month in the mountains) he has an electrical heather in his room, when I asked why they didn't start the wooden nice stoven sent from the danes some people told me "well, he doesn't like to get trees cut". Second, being the head of the association he is he has to face all the s*#t that goes around with smile on the face. Though things which I don't want to mention but that one would not expect...but...so are men. And he his the target of discontenment, even if it comes from your private life, a public person is the easiest target to hit. This goes for all public persons. Once he said before me "in the mission there is only one permanent memeber, that is me. You all can leave the mission as you like" but he cannot, as this was his promise to Babuji. Believe me he doesn't like to be where he is. 2 years ago he wanted to spend more and more time in satkhol (in the mountains, away from everybody) but suddenly he felt compelled to go back to work among the people. Not for his sake, but for the mission's sake. To be where he is IS A BURDEN. Of course everybody thing is a great thing to be visible, and "famous". Try it, and then you'll tell me. And think also about this: no girls...no big cars...no big villas...i mean it is a bit boring :)))
About the "persona non grata" in France.
There has been a witch hunt in france after non catholic organizations. It's not for me to discuss it, it must have had its reasons. But the french consulate in Pondicherry granted him a 5 years Visa to avoid him to come each and every time, a kindness that was given from their side.
About his near people,
If you had followed the thing from near, you would also know that in a publich speech like the one about gays he said "It is very sad for me to see that the people nearest to me are the ones that don't apply the teachings of my Master". So this goes for the people around him.
Again, I don't want to slip into a discussion on Chariji good/bad. But I've an interest that wikipedia, which i appreciate very much, reflects a correct image of things.
Money
There is money in the mission, yes. Is that a bad thing ? There are ashrams to run and they need money. Not for comforts (absolutely not, my bones know well that) but for the normal maintenance of it. Is it wrong to have a place where people can gather ? The money that are sent for i.e. an earthquake go to the prime minister relief fund. Let's not insinuate false things....
If you are around the mission you see that there are no employees in the mission (expect 10 or 20 people working in manapakkam and satkhol in kitchen and so on) that might benefit of the money donated from the abhyasis. The books are open for consultation. Go to India and see for yourself those from Angola or Venezuela who got their trip paid, or the people from the village of Manapakkam that go to the ambulatory to get visits+drugs for free (i tried it myself in february). just to clear the way, in the ambulatory you are not given any leaflet about the meditation, nor you are invited to anything.......
I know there are people who are angry with srcm/chariji for this or that reason, but as said previously: there is no money you are asked to pay for the practice, nobody makes pressure on you to stay. I mean...if you stay in it is because you think is ok. No ?
Tell me what are the risks involved in being ann abhyasi with srcm.
Give away all your money ?
Both Babuji and Chariji sent the money back to persons who, trying to appear good before them, made donations which (according to Babuji and Chariji) where taking away money from the family->too much for the income of that person. I saw myself a police woman in Pujab handing over a big bunch of notes, Master kindly gave it back, it was February 2003. Yes there has been a split up within a french couple because of srcm. Is that enough to start a witch hunt on this subject ?
The thing about the panel evaluating...allow me to say sounds funny. Think about it....and you will agree that has no place in this.
It is my intention to keep the discussion civilized, as you say Don. We are touching some "inner cords" and it is normal that some heat up.
--spaceman 09:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Dear Don,
You did not answer any of my questions because i think you don't have any. This will be my last visit here.
People who have practiced meditation under other systems for many years have felt peace in front of Chariji even the first time they visited him. People who has searched for a spiritual master have confirmed that first time they are seeing a practical Master. So your observations count very little for people as they can judge it for themseleves better that you can do. ==spaceman
Input from Anonymous & Reply
Dear A..
You cannot change history because it does not suit you. What is in there is as "truthful" as I can get. If we can make it palateable to you that would be good. This is an encuclopedia. I have researched it thoroughly and the spiritual succession is disputed. Like it or not. the easiest way to resolve the issue with the ISRC dispute is to put the document on-line. That would resolve that.
No one is disputing the Presidency of SRCM but the "spiritual" Mastership and Lineage. SRCM has done the same thing with Lalaji and we do not see any mention of Lalaji's Master in the PR Sites or litterature. The sufi lineage claims to be the originators of the "heart to heart" transmission. I put that in as "gently" as I could. But it is the truth (not that they are right, but that the claim to be) ...It is after all a 'spiritual" group, not a corporation. Spirituality and the lineage, is the product not the Management of the Institution.
I am fluently bilingual (french/english) and I read and understand latin, and some german, italian, spanish. I have read the articles in France regarding the "controversy " at Augerans....Do you now want that taken out of the "history" also....It's like taking out the bad parts of the History of Fascism. What is history will be recorded in "encyclopedias"....Too bad it happened, but try and atone .....(become AT ONE). The damage has been done, the local newspapers have recorded it (rightly or wrongly) We can report it in a journalistc fashion. That is a Wiki Standard. At one time, going to another town meant anonimity for the tyrants, criminals and abusers,. Now with the Information Age, the people can "keep one other informed".
That's the Democracy of Information and Totalitarian Institutions do not like it....I will attempt to edit it more gently but will not eliminate it...Help us get the truth of the situation for the sake of those who suffered at the hands of the "abuser". That's the locals with their families according to the reports I read. Try and undo the damage for the sake of "spirituality" and unity in the world or at least, record it in an encyclopedia.
In your opinion, if a person is "persona non grata" in a country, is it important for people to know? Would you like to know if a group was so designated? It is goin to happen more and more. We could think about it. This is the Information Age after all...How do we ethically use our new-found Power?
Don...
Dear Don,
Some of your comments are quite hilarious. Anyway, i am not sure why you are involving yourself so much to bring out the 'truth' as you are putting it. Anyway , if you are a 'true' follower of Rev. Babuji as you believe you are , you wouldn't be doing all these things that you are doing. You would be sitting, meditating and finding the truth inside yourself rather than writing negative comments, criticizing and demanding proof. Don't tell us that you are 'worried' for so many people following SRCM now. If you are really worried you would be doing something constructive instead of repeatedly criticizing organizations or people about whom you know very little.
Also you are trying to influence people and trying to judge SRCM under Chariji for them. They should try the practice and judge it for themselves. What you have written is just your point of view which is not Neutral. If you believe in something then you have everyright to do so and continue. But what you are doing is to try and influence other people with some Prejudice that you can judge it better than they do which i think is not correct. SRCM, whether under Babuji or Chariji , it was for each person to start, practice and benefit out of their own willingness which i am sure you agree with. So, why waste your time and other's time.
A
Don to Spaceman re NPOV
Hi Spaceman...
You are not an unbiased editor...Yours is not a Neutral Point of View...
This is hardly a harassing conversation....If you ever see anything "defamatory" in any of my posts here, let me know. I will correct them immediately with an apology. This is an encyclopedia, not a PR site for SRCM. We want the truth, and the democratic truth..that is what Wikipedia is about..... Service is what I have done all my life and my contributions have been recognized officially. I do not want to be a force for anything but the truth, honesty, compassion, love etc...and here, I want harmony. We can attain that with a bit of "spirituality", not dogmatism.
The statement about the discontent about the Management is a verifiable fact, check out the blogs in Europe and North America. If it was only one, I would not put it in. But it's a "groundswell". Including an ex-preceptor and a ex-member of the Working Committee. "I don't get into the content on the blogs (that is Point of view) but the fact that there is discontentment is a FACT and it is not an emotional of disaffected few, but many who are trying to save the SRCM, not bring it down....you can't change that. They are questionning their "spiritual" advancemant and the Management of the SRCM....They have a right to and I have a right to record it as such...It is History...If you want a "arbitration" on it, I will agree...
If you want to do some good for the sake of "truth" for those who read this article, there is one way to solve the issue of "succession". Put the document on-line. We can add it at the bottom under "official documents" or something like that. I can get KC Narayana to get involved and confirm the authenticity of the document, if you want. You probably know that the Working committee rejected another document claiming succession. There is no dispute there.
The same thing with the "re-assignment of funds raised for disaster relief". Having chaired United Way committees for many years, I know that there are some goernment standards to guide what "Charities" can do. Most government insist that "re-assignment" statements be posted on the donation form. United Nations has standards also and I am verifying those standards for "re-assignment" of funds. You can understand why, I am sure. General Revenues or assigned donations can be used to build structures (Meditation centers, in this case), in the name of "making work" or assisting by setting up "infrastructures" in disaster areas. I will post my findings for your approval.
There is another document that you can post if you want "harmony". The court ruling on "the sect List" controversy. That will solve that issue in one easy way and make your society look good. Unless the wording does not show the society in a good light. I trust that that is not the case. I am also researching that in France.
PS...Could you check out for me the lineage of the Masters of Lalaji's Master. I know it's in the Islam lineage of the Naqshbandi Order. Is it accepted by SRCM? If not, why not? They claim to have created the "transmission" heart to heart....Is that true according to you ?? Lalaji's story on SMRTI does not mention his master. It does mention that he used all sorts of spiritual methods with his disciples. I am researching it with our Muslim Brothers...and will amend as necessary...
The truth is what we want in an encyclopedia....the respect of spirituality is what we want from each other...
I will be here daily...I am disabled and this is one way that I can help
Don
Wikipedia:Blocking policy
Hi Don,
I would like to bring your attention on this: Wikipedia:Blocking policy Disruption
Sysops may block IP addresses or usernames that disrupt the normal functioning of Wikipedia, or pose any kind of threat to it. Such disruption may include (but is not limited to) changing other users' signed comments, making deliberately misleading edits, harassment, excessive personal attacks, and inserting material that may be defamatory.
Biographies of living persons
Editors who repeatedly insert critical material into the biography of a living person (or its talk page), or into a section about a living person in another article (or its talk page), may be blocked under the disruption provision of this policy if, in the opinion of the blocking admin, the material is unsourced, or incorrectly sourced, and may constitute defamation.
I would like to add that Wikipedia HAS TO BE impartial(All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view ). If you go through the pages you created it is evident that there is "not impartiality" in what you wrote. So I believe it is right to correct those things that "excessive personal attacks / may costitute defamation". Somehow I believe we have both come to some acceptance of each others points of view. Some things you wrote were clearly misleading such as the succession Chariji-Babuji. You know, the block is also valid for you.
--spaceman
Article title
Hi, Does anyone have an idea as to why this page is titled Rama Survey (instead of Sahaj Marg or Shri Ram Chandra Mission)? I think the reason, if any, should go into the main page.
Where it is given Rama Survey.........
I want to know what is dispute for....... Gurubrahma 13:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Move Sahaj marg specific material there
A fair bit of this article is more properly Sahaj marg rather than the specific organisation and I have thus moved it there. Paul foord 11:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
Why is it required that only one person can be the "Uttaradhikari" ???? Why not more then one???
In this case Alll the people can work for the welfare of Human Kind. Then Where it comes in mind that who is the Successor.
Are you getting my point///
NPOV
Statements of belief - as fact are POV. Paul foord 04:24, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
It was at this place, Fatehgarh, that the Master who has drunk deep the nectar of life at the feet of the great Sufi saint, Hazarat Fazal Ahmad Khan Sahib Raipuri, for full sixteen years, first lit the lamp of spirituality in the year 1911, which has engulfed every nook and corner of this country and has spread to foreign lands as well. It was here that he chose his final resting place and his mortal remains are laid in his Samadhi, situated in Navadia (Kanpur Road), Fatehgarh (U.P.). Here the seeker after truth throng in ever increasing numbers, as years pass on and assemble once in a year Easter Holidays at annual congregation, ‘Bhandara’ to quench their spiritual thirst and renew the bonds of love.
Dear j
Please read on SMRTI the history of Lalaji, and specifically his teachings, and "special personality" (toward the end). I will not go into the details about how my comments generally agree with Lalaji and his teachings, because I do not agree with all of them as they display a "upper caste" bias in some (only a few) cases (we can discuss these issues later, if you wish..it would be my pleasure). But this quote is there in black and white, as is also there on the ISRC site under Lalaji's history, and is also in other Ram Chandra written material (too numerous to list) and I want it included in the encyclopedia. I would also like to have the teachings of Lalaji mentionned in the teachings of the Guru. We could then discuss how the current "management" is not adhering to it's own teachings.
Ram Chandra wanted the abhyasis to help Chari become a Saint, as he could see the problems of Chari becoming the next Guru, but it seems that no one has the courage or freedom (integrity) to question and/or oppose him on contraversial issues as he has given himself all the power. At the end of his life, he just did not want to fight anymore and gave in the the "takeover". When the estates of Political/Economic Power and Religious/Spiritual Power reside in the same person, there is too much centralization of power and it becomes corrupt, not adhering to its own laws and teachings. Read the section about "spending on others" and see where the "detachment" if properly regulated by morality can be made to work in some cases if "charity" and "Love" is developed (Christ). In the case of families of abhyasis, the love is taken out of the family and directed towards the "greedy" guru, and the families fall apart. This was not Lalaji(as I read it) nor Babuji(as I know, having experienced it). There was no dependency on Babuji, hence freedom. From what I read in Europe and what I see in North America, Sahaj Marg is becoming a "cult of an individual", much as "brahman-ism" had deteriorated in the 'dark ages' of India, and that is such a shame.
Rituals and idolatry and accumulation of wealth, credits (spiritual capitalism or 'indulgences' for catholics), was where most religions ended up and thereby lost their spiritual and moral authority. They became the "quick fix" for the lazy person, who could buy his way into heaven, without giving anything up. (confess one's sins and be 'tranmitted' to by the grace of the guru) No responsibility for deeds or words, nothing to do, everthing is done for you, etc...Does it not sound like Sahaj Marg, without the original teachings or Lalaji and Babuji. If the guru is not responsible for, nor accountable to, the written material, and the abhyasis is not responsible for his life and death, who in Sahaj Marg is responsible or answerable or accountable?
Lalaji and other intellectual gurus were trying to bring it back. (with the light of logic and reason (Logos) and shabda, mantra, etc... (as in agreement with, or building onto, pythagorean sound and light octave theories,)) Kirpal Singh comes to mind.
Here is the quote from SMRTI:
"Is it not amazing that Lalaji attained perfection within a brief span of seven months? While only a student his entire system was transformed into a celestial inner light, and his consciousness ascended and transcended all the known stages and reaches, to reach the state of statelessness."
This is not a question of POV. If one could get any institution or system to adhere to it's own teachings, and statements, the world would have only one religion and the parts would not be so at odds with one another. We could then get into discussion the 'contradictory' teachings that keep the followers confused, therefore controlled.
Alot of the content appears to be quoted from somewhere... possibly copyright violation? also I have removed alot of external links appearing inside the article - please use internal links.
Alot of the content is still POV... I'll get back to that. Sfacets 10:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sfacets..
The internal links (in red) that you put in do not go to any Wikipedia site for "jagirdars" and "Chaudhari" and many internal links have no info yet..Mine, (in blue) go to Widipedia sites but they are not the the same name or spelling (ie. jagir and Chowdhury)..Does that mean that in the article, I cannot link to any other site including the Wikipedia site? (in blue?). If that is so, I will take them out. Should I add all these links to the "external Links"....That will make a whole lot of external links...
As far as "copyright" violation, if one attaches quotes from a person or a group, and credits that person or group, that is allowed. How else can one discuss or comment on another's material? ie Bible, religious material?
Thanks for your help...
Hi Don
The best would be to find (using search) the Wikipedia articles you want to link to and create links to them (you don't need to use "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...", simply encapsulate the name of the article you are linking to in brackets "[[ ]]") - it is the norm to employ such internal links within an article (a few exceptions are allowed) and then list the external sites under the "external links" heading. If the article doesn't exist, feel free to create it! Even if it is only a few sentences long, others will complete it in time.
The quotations are fine... but simply filling the page with them isn't great... the best would be to paraphrase and then reference your sources (Ram Chandra of Shahjahanpur etc) at the bottom of the document, under a section titled "references".
Let me know if I can be of assistance, Sfacets 23:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sfacets...
Can You help with: When I place the brackets around "Jagirdars" the link goes to a blank page because there is no "jagirdars" page.....If I put in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jagir, I direct it to a page called "Jagir". "Jagirdars" does not exist but "Jagir" does and contains the meaning of "Jagirdars". Is there an easier way to access that "jagir" file ....The same thing with "Chaudhari" and "Chowdhury" which is a different spelling of the same word. Thanks for your help...
I will try some paraphrases and references....
Opps...I figured out the internal edit with different words as the file...sorry...
Don...
