Talk:Shoegazing

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Why isn't Sonic Youth mentioned?! They were one of the biggest of this kind of atmospheric guitar stuff to break into the mainstream briefly. Much of their music is very close to MBV and a "harder" Lush.

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Strange, when I searched for "shoegazing" using Wikipedia search this article (or any results for that matter) didn't turn up. Jareha 16:22, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Must've been a temporary glitch as it's working fine now. So, nevermind me. Jareha 16:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Dinosaur first two lps reference 2 Shoegaze vs. shoegazing 3 mistake 4 Stereolab? 5 External Links 6 Angelhead 7 Requested move 7.1 Survey 7.2 Discussion 8 Citations 9 Nugaze and current trends 10 Shoegaze Rhythm 11 Influences 12 pyschocandy 13 The Dead C, pre-Siltbreeze

[edit] Dinosaur first two lps reference

I don't think that the first Dinosaur album is a good reference to early Boo Radleys. It's more of hardcore punk influenced indie-rock record than than what came after.

The two lps that followed that self titled debut - You're Living All Over Me and Bug - are better pointers.

Dinosaur Jr. is in no way related to shogazer. I see absolutely no connection. We might as well say Sonic Youth gave birth to shoegazer. -Some guy 12:59 PM

Agreed, Dinosaur Jr. is not related to shoegazing.

[edit] Shoegaze vs. shoegazing

I believe the proper genre term is "shoegaze", not "shoegazing".WesleyDodds 04:26, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

the google test seems to confirm otherwise --MilkMiruku 15:25, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

The "google test" is irrelevent here. It doesn't take into account context. A band or song could be described as "shoegazing" much in the same way I could call a rock song "rocking", but that doesn't change the name of the genre to "rocking and rolling". Your argument is short-sighted and silly. - Dustin.

fair enough, but tbh for a long time i thought it was refered to as 'shoegazer', and that gets almost as many hits as 'shoegaze', so no-one should move anything until we get multiple quotes to back up any change up :) --MilkMiruku 03:41, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Shoegaze should be the correct term. Tonearm 05:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)Tonearm

shoegaze is how everyone i know has always known it

I've always known the genre to be called shoegaze, and allmusic calls it that. Shoegazing is what the performers did, which inspired the name. As Dustin said, rocking -> rock, so shoegazing -> shoegaze. I think allmusic is a pretty reputable source? --Casiotone 20:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there's one answer here - but for what it's worth - it's always been shoegazing for me - as someone who was a big fan at the time and in the UK. I'll dig through old cuttings to see what the UK music press used most - also if you search nme.com now you'll see more hits for 'shoegazing' than 'shoegaze' (by an order of magnitude). NickW 13:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

jumping in here with nothing to back me up but experience, I know it as "shoegazer" as well. Source-hunting commences now. Cantara 23:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I think shoegaze and shoegazer are common than shoegazing, even if the NME uses it more. WesleyDodds 03:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

More common where? I'm starting to get the impression that 'shoegaze' is the US equivalent of the UK 'shoegazing'. NickW 08:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm surprised the NME's influence reached as far as the States. I thought Shoegazing was only really for people south of Oxford. In Manchester we we're still riding off the tailends of the indie-dance baggy scene. DJ HEAVEN 11:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I've also just looked on google again and it seems that shoegaze is actually twice as popular as shoegazing. --Casiotone^talk 12:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've found some old Slowdive and Chapterhouse cuttings - reviews of their early singles, gigs etc.. but no mention of shoegazing yet. As for Google etc.. shouldn't we be concerned to find what the original term was? NickW 12:46, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone figured this out yet? WesleyDodds 05:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Still working on it - I think we need to see the original music press coverage - for some reason the cuttings I've dug out at home so far pre-date the introduction of the shoegazing label. I'll carry on looking... NickW 09:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard it called shoegazing before. It should be changed to shoegaze. The current name makes Wikipedia look lame and behind the times. Maluka 07:15, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. Your reasoning is incorrect. The genre was first described in the early nineties so how can it be anything other than behind the times? As for 'shoegazing' being lame - maybe you should try to address some of the above points before resorting to name calling. NickW 21:40, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Nick, Nick, Nick! Shoegazing IS LAME. I mentioned this on a music forum and people laughed hard at it being called Shoegazing. Get with the times, ok? Maluka 07:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Because it's highly possible most people refer to it as "shoegaze" these days. I know I always see "shoegaze" or "shoegazer" instead of "shoegazing". WesleyDodds 04:46, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

On the NME website search, the number of results for shoegazing are tenfold that of shoegaze. The google searches on the site for shoegazing and shoegaze give the same thing (and half the results for 'shoegaze' are the boards). Although the general google searches give about a million for shoegaze and half that for shoegazing, so it would seem most people today use the term shoegaze, but NME are still using shoegazing. I personally don't mind either of the terms being used for the article, but from the results it should probably be shoegaze. Either way, I think we should definitely include information about the other term being used as well in the article. --Casiotone^talk 16:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

There are a number of issues here - most importantly - what the original term was, and what the article should be called. The original term was shoegazing (like it or not e.g. see NME 8 June 1991 - [1]). Perhaps that has been supplanted by 'shoegaze'. I don't know - I can only comment as a fan of shoegazing at the time. I admit to not having followed any offshoots or derivatives of the original scene... My preference for the article title is shoegazing - because it is essentially the senior variant term / synonym etc.. Other people may prefer shoegaze if they feel it reflects more common useage at present. How you substantiate the latter I don't know - no-one has so far. P.S. Being 'Lame' has no bearing on article titles in an encyclopedia. NickW 17:44, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

At this point in time I think it's best we call the article "shoegaze". It's nice having a reference for what it was originally called, but the naming conventions of Wikipedia correspond to what people will most likely recognize in order to aid searching. From my experience, everyone I know knows it as shoegaze and even Allmusic lists the genre under shoegaze. If we do rename the article, the first sentence should probably read Shoegaze (originally called "shoegazing" and sometimes called "shoegazer") is . . . WesleyDodds 05:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Disagree - the discussion above shows both terms are still in popular use. I'm sure we all have our own experience of what the genre is referred to as - all equally limited by our respective geographic locations (and age no doubt)... As for searching on Wikipedia - that's easily solved by adding a redirect for 'shoegaze'. NickW 08:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the discussion has shown everyone else either doesn't use the phrase or is unfamiliar with it. An earlier point was brought up that NME seems to be the only entity that largely refers to it as "shoegazing". Maybe they have a trademark or something. WesleyDodds 09:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of it called "shoegaze" music, however "Shoegazing" was (somehwta sarcasticly) referred in the NME quite a lot (i believe it's one of their genre labels like Urchin Rock etc) just to group those indie band that gave the impression on stage that they were looking at their feet DJ HEAVEN 11:18, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

"Shoegazing" gets my vote as it's the only thing I've ever heard it called. While the NME made the term popular it was apparently first coined in a review of a Moose gig (supporting Lush) to describe the nervous appearance of the newly formed support band. I think this review appeared in 'Sounds'.--Mike2121212 15:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"Shoegaze" gets my vote. It makes sense to me to compare it to rock, in which rock/shoegaze is the name of the genre; a rocker/shoegazer is one who performs or listens to the music; and rocking/shoegazing is what one does while listening or performing. I would never ever say "I listen to shoegazing." --EndlessVince 03:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

"Shoegazer" is the term I remember from back in the day in Ireland. I was, I'll admit, a relative late-comer to the scene (got into Swervedriver and Curve in '93 first and worked backwards to the 4AD scene). Donnacha 22:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Shoegaze" is the term I have always known it as since 1991 when Loveless came out. The band I managed, All Natural Lemon & Lime Flavors, played in the local NY/Philly "shoegaze" scene, where all bands here referred to it as such from about 1992 through 1998. I agree this could be a case of the States' term vs. the Brit term. limesparks 19:24, 03 November 2006 (UTC)

Last.fm says shoegaze too, look: http://www.last.fm/tag/Shoegazing // http://www.last.fm/tag/Shoegaze (ErikHK 21:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC))

I read the NME weekly and Melody Maker occasionally through the late 80's & early 90's. 'Shoegazing' and 'Shoegazer(s)' I recall. I've don't think I've ever seen 'Shoegaze' until today. Of the two magazines I think Melody Maker writers were generally more positive towards the music, NME writers tended to be more dismissive, hence the fairly negative ('lame' even) name. --Breezecatcher 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] mistake

the smiths album strangeways here we come was not released in 1979...

• I noticed that and removed it. Folkor 06:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stereolab?

Stereolab were influenced heavily by shoegaze, and allot of their music could be described as shoegaze itself - maybe they deserve a mention? --82.12.241.34 09:38, March 27 2006

Stereolab features a pretty through description of the band but doesn't mention shoegazing. if you feel it should, you might want to mention it on that articles talk page --MilkMiruku 12:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think shoegaze is prominent in Stereolab, their sound is very groove-oriented and I do think that the so called nugaze references are too crowded (i.e. someone self promotioning here?, haha) , they could really use some clean up. I think its important also to mention how shoegaze blended into post-rock, this happened before the remergence of shoegaze and it is noticed most of all in mogwai, which is not mentioned. I also think that a band like sonic youth is deserved being mentioned, many of the heavily distorted guitar textures that shoegaze was later on known for can be traced back to an album like Sister, although their concept and context was very different.

[edit] External Links

Should that link to Scholars and Fellows (band website) be here? Seems like we should be keeping the specific band links off of this page. Brandon 22:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I've removed it and also the link to indiepop radio, as both seem to be blatant advertisement and definitely don't belong there. I also added the alternate 'shoegaze' last.fm group, since its also quite large.

[edit] Angelhead

Does this band actually exist? I can find no references for them outside of Wikipedia, nor can I find any of their music either online or in record stores. I think we should remove them from the header, since their influence (and even their existence) seems debatable at this point.

Angelhead did exist and were well known within the goth / indie scene in the UK for a while. Not sure if I'd class them as a notable Shoegazing band though. NickW 08:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

The whole article seems short on citations - it could do with a lot more references. -- Beardo 16:19, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It's pretty poor. Looks like there's lots of original research here. "Many of the band members were young, inexperienced and shy" - non-NPOV, unreferenced. Parts of it read like a speculative essay based on personal feelings.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 06:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, those millions of "citation needed" tags are horrible. I think I might remove all of them, and put up a tag at the top. People shouldn't do things like that. Zweifel 09:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm with Zweifel on this one. The article has 23 requests for citations, which is quite ridiculous. Not every sentence needs to be cited, such as defining shoegazing with "It looked like they were looking at their shoes, or "shoe-gazing". Patrick925 04:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nugaze and current trends

How do people feel about a reference to ethereal wave in this section? It's heavily influenced by the original 4AD sound. Donnacha 02:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Under this "current trends" area, I'd like to recommend Versoma's debut EP for diehard fans of shoegazer. It could best be described as some brutal ass shoegazing.

[edit] Shoegaze Rhythm

One of the most noticeable aspects of shoegaze, that doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere in the article, is its approach to rhythm. Many if not most shoegaze songs have 2 beats going at the same time -- a regular one, in which, most often, the vocals, lead guitar and at least one rhythm instrument play, and a double time beat, often taken by the bass or rhythm guitar. The drums often play the one beat against the other, leading to the jumpy, syncopated feel of many of the songs.

The combination of beats can lend a feeling of forward thrust to songs, including ballads, that in most other styles would lack energy. This approach to rhythm was obviously not invented in the late 80's. You can hear it in some precursor music of the 60's, for example in songs by the Who and the Byrds (Eight Miles High is a good example). It is in this use of rhythms that a band like Swervedriver can be most easily associated with shoegaze.

Fotto 22:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)fotto

I call it the "Vapour Trail" rhythm. It's in most every damn shoegaze song. If someone can put this in terms of music theory, I think it'd be a welcome addition. WesleyDodds 02:08, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influences

The influences section currently states "punk-era bands such as The Cramps, Pere Ubu and The Birthday Party proved influential in some cases, especially with the forerunners of the genre". I can't see this other than in early My Bloody Valentine tracks, and they were virtually a different band by the shoegazing era. I can't think of any other bands in the genre showing these influences. Any objections to me removing this?--Michig 17:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] pyschocandy

why is darklands replacing pyschocandy on the timeline? pyschocandy is clearly more of a shoegazing album. just listen to its wall-of-sound technique. 69.244.101.216 22:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Dead C, pre-Siltbreeze

While often pigeon-holed as a noise-rock band, The Dead C's earliest work, e.g. the Live Dead See and 43 Sketch for a Poster cassettes from 1987, and even their mid-period musical output like Trapdoor F***ing Exit are really not far from what is defined as shoegazer. Listen to the songs "Angel", "3 Years", and "Mighty" on the compilation Vain, Erudite, and Stupid to see what I mean. While perhaps not as poppy or overtly Velvet Underground and Chameleons-influenced as the movement itself, I think they qualify as at least its spiritual predecessors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.92.126.218 (talk) 05:15, 24 February 2007 (UTC).