Talk:Shlomo Carlebach

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Contents 1 Abuse allegations mediation 2 Should allegations be included in articles? 3 Shalom my friends, 4 Carlebach was famous for his music, not much else 5 Famous almost only for being a musician??? 6 What about pictures? 7 3-22 - additions from anon IP 8 Allegations, yet again 8.1 Wikipedia:Libel 9 Controversy Section 10 Ordaining of women 10.1 Problematic and unreliable sources 11 Reverted Changes 12 External Links 13 External links to allegations of abuse, again 14 To our newcomers 15 Dates

[edit] Abuse allegations mediation

Mediation is taking place on this issue. Quaere verum 17:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should allegations be included in articles?

As much as I hate to say this, I think we need to recognize the allegations of sexual abuse on the part of Rb. Carlebach somewhere on this page. I'm not too well versed in the details, so I don't really feel comfortable making these additions myself, but I do think we should address them. --אריאל יהודה 00:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

And why should we indeed. There's probably a page online somewhere suggesting similar things about George W. Bush. The man is dead, he is mainly remembered positively and suddenly one activist springs up to correct the record. For a group calling itself "Jewish Coalition Against Sexual Abuse/Assault (JCASA)" it is rather bad to focus on the memory of one dead rabbi. JFW | T@lk 23:01, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Some further questions for User:Bachrach44/אריאל יהודה: What would be the point of including such information? Would it be good scholarship to write up the sex histories of famous people on Wikipedia? How does it not violate libel & slander or Lashon hara? Were these allegations ever proven in a court of law or brought to trial? It would not be wise to include hearsay because it is not smart for Wikipedia to start on the slippery slope of recording the "sexual histories" of famous people. Wikipedia is not the place to publish "therapy sessions" that border on the scandalous. IZAK 23:18, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I realize the awareness center has a tendency to bring up feelings (both good and bad) on all sides, and maybe I shouldn't have used them as my example, they were simply one of the first links to come up in google, and they do a good job of archiving information from multiple sources. This is also far from the first time I've heard these "allegations", and honeslty I kind of assumed that at this point it was common knowledge that Rb. Shlomo enjoyed [insert your euphamism of choice here]. (I can assure you it's not a "single activist". Almost everyone I know who had contact with him when he went on his college tours after he as famous related storis of his woman-izing). Although there may be a page like this somewhere on Bush, this is actually not unique in any way, and many of the stories I've heard and read about him are verifiable. This is not heresay dreamed up by some political wacko out to slander the president.

To address some of IZAK's questions, I have no idea if anything has ever been brought to trial (see my first comment on not being too well versed in the details), however as long as we stick to verified facts, we will not be guilty of either libel or slander. Also, do you think I'm honestly advocating hearsay and slander? I don't think I need to quote wikipedia rules at you, suffice it to say that neither of us is advocating stepping outside the bounds of wikipedia policy, and you should stop using straw men to shoot down my position.

Wikipedia is known for impartiality, and part of that entails a service to the truth, even when it is unpleasant. I am not advocating for a specific bent or way of addressing the issue, I'm simply saying it needs to be addressed. --אריאל יהודה 01:39, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shalom my friends,

I am writing to you as a simple man trying to do everything that’s right for all, i myself had some bad thoughts about Reb Sholomo, but since I have listened to 1000's of hours of recordings from this great man's TORAH, all I can say is YOU be the judge, how can it be that a man that is up to no good speaks all the time about the MESSIAH and the HOLY TEMPLE to be built, that we are all waiting for so long.

The last thing I would expect to hear from an evil man is, that MOSHIACH is coming tomorrow, why is he crying and making songs all his life about the REDEMPTION of the Jews? when he is up to know good or doing evil.

IT JUST DOES NOT ADD UP!!! How can someone who produced 1000's of holy deep songs, sung throughout the world by Jews and non-Jews alike. How is this possible? do you really want to say that he was bluffing all his life and we all know he didn’t even do it for the MONEY as he left ZERO he simply gave all away.

I simply ask the few people in this world who have a pure mind free from evil, to THINK! is this possible? and if you say yes! He must at least get a GUINESS world record for being the biggest ACTOR and FAKE all his life... 69 years of it! as he played to be a HOLY-MAN. Only because a few unholy women have thought up some stories about him (as Reb Shlomo says on one of his tapes that many woman advanced themselves on him but he always withdrew but he never wanted to hurt anyone even a TINY FLY) that NEVER CAME UP WHEN HE WAS ALIVE this lies are just surfacing now when they see that people just cant forget this HOLY man.

The reason that Rabbi Sholomo gets bad press even now after he passed away is quite simple, as we all know that every holy thing must have opposition so there will always be a choice for people to make, if not we would all BE ANGELS, the evil must always go against the good, as can be seen on a daily basis.

And even our holy RABBI MOSHE rabeini had people who were against him, Yes our holy Rabbi who gave us over the holy TORAH on Mount SINAI, had people calling him all sorts of names for the same reason, as long that we are in EXILE the evil will always oppose the good and sometimes even win.

What remains to be said is that its amazing that some of us are so foolish to believe for 1 second, that someone can produce such HOLY SONGS can LIVE A DOUBLE LIFE! Its not possible it just can't work either your good or bad, and if someone is bad we always FIND OUT when he is around, Not when he is not here TO DEFEND HIMSELF.

To all the followers of Hashem, keep strong and please don’t waste your time reading bad articles that just poisons our mind, this just takes us of the right track of serving Hashem, all it does it make us CONFUSED and when are confused we simply give up we stop praying we stop learning, that is what AMALEK wants just to confuse a little. I bless all of you to keep strong and NEVER GIVE UP praying and waiting every moment for the great day for the REDEMPTION from this long and dark EXILE, that will be when Moshiach will come any day now.

Kol Tuv

Rabbi M Safrin, Jerusalem Safrin 15:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carlebach was famous for his music, not much else

Bachrach44/אריאל יהודה: You too are missing a great number of points here. Shlomo Carlebach was and is known primarily as a composer/singer/musician of modern religious Jewish music. That is his number one "claim to fame". His private life is just that, his private life. It does not detract from his genius as a singer. Of course for religious purists or radical feminists there is the option that they can ignore him. Now there are revisionists of all kinds on this planet who have their own agendas. The Awareness Center has its own agenda, and it has nothing to do with Jewish music, I am sure we can all agree with that. Yes, it would be true to say that Shlomo Carlebach lived during the era of the Hippies who espoused the theory and practice of "free love" and he somehow sought to create his own Judaic "neo-Hasidic" version of this (hence his "House of Love and Prayer" in San Francisco), and if you have studied the life of Carlebach closely you will know that he found a bizarre "rationale" for this in his own interpretations of the Zohar and he had many male followers and female admirers who believed his new-found "philosophy of free love, Jewish style". Now how the heck are we to know for sure if all these women (or men) complaining about him now were not more than happy to oblige him at the time (but now possibly in psychotherapy they "wake up" and decide that they were "abused")? The answer is we don't know and will never know, because it seems that the vast majority of women he consorted with accepted him as some sort of Jewish "Guru" and as you may know, most Gurus are subsequently accused of some kind of "sexual abuses" by followers who had previously joined willingly. Now let me ask you, should we add all kinds of "allegations" to the biographies of Gurus or to those of powerful men who had women falling at their feet begging for ("free") sex with with them in many instances? Or how about the now known recorded instances of Sigmund Freud's or Karl Marx's sexual follies which are recorded by modern researchers, how germane are they to Freud's contributions to Psychiatry or Marx's contributions to Marxism, Communism and Socialism? The answer again, is pretty much zero, because as scholars we are not studying the sexual lives of people, that is either best left to people like Masters and Johnson or left for muckrakers and people who may have an interest in perversions (of subjects and whatnot) and not in the primary subjects at hand. I am wondering more and more why you brought up such a tangential subject? Can you explain? Is it that you are either anti-Orthodox, modern-Orthodox, or are you extremely-Orthodox? Because all those camps have their own sects that have their latter-day vendettas still running and axes to grind against Carlebach when most people who know him (or have just heard of "Carlebach") just want to enjoy (or mimic!) his music only -- not more and not less. IZAK 02:15, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Bill Clinton is famous for being a US president, yet we still mention his indiscretions, despite the fact that it (arguably) did not have an effect on his work as a president. Jack Ryan is another (probably better) example. Although someone's sec life is inherently private, when word of sexual indiscretions become public, they are (unfortunately) not rpivate anymore. Ignoring your personal attacks for the moment, you ask why I even brought it up. The truth is this isn't really a tangential subject at all - Carlebach is certainly a notable character, and worthy of an entry. The charges against him from the AWC are fairly serious and they're not the only ones [1]. (I must admit I'm surprised that this is even coming off as news to you - I've had similar conversations with many people before and everyone seems to know of the allegations. I even have a friend who won't go to a Carlebach minyan on Friday nights if it labels itself as such.) The reason I brought it up is because I felt it needed to be treated carefully. I didn't think simply adding a link to TAC at the bottom of the page would be apropriate, nor would simply repeating the charges verbatim. (As you said, they do have an agenda). I think the first part about what you write about Carlebach's interpretations of the zohar might actually be a fantastic lead in if you want to use it. There are many pages and bios on Wikipedia which include criticisms of the subject. As long as it's done carefully, it does not detract from the rest of the page. --אריאל יהודה 03:25, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Bachrach44/אריאל יהודה: And there you have it, Clinton was put on trial during his lifetime which resulted in the Impeachment of Bill Clinton because he committed perjury (he lied under oath to a grand jury when testifying about the Paula Jones case) which was the legal basis for Monicagate, whereas to the best of my knowledge Carlebach never went on trial and I do not know of any legal proceedings against him (at least so far I have not heard of any). When Carlebach's wife couldn't take him any more, she divorced him, more than Clinton's ever did (but domestic affairs is a personal matter, not fit for scholarly articles). Now, posthumously, comes along a group of self-appointed latter-day "crusaders" who are putting Carlebach "on trial" when nothing of the sort happened during his lifetime (and people were free to sue him then, so why didn't they?) Since he is not here to represent himself and is unable to defend himself, why should anyone pay attention to the grumblings of a group of people who were once his followers? You know, even marriages that are "made in heaven" turn into "ugly divorces", and here you have an organization that is encouraging people to publicize their "divorce/s" with their one-time rabbi. From my knowledge about only a few individuals who had at one time or another been involved with Carlebach, I would not trust any of their latter-day gripes because from what I can tell they were pretty happy with Carlebach when he was alive and subscribed to his perculiar philosophies. I have not had a chance to really study in depth who the people are behind this self-declared "Awareness Center" but to me they seem like a group that seeks publicity at all costs (which is nothing to be proud of) and likes to sound alarmist and vindictive. They are neither a secular court of law, nor are they a Halakhic Beth din. So what do they amount to? A hill of beans? They appear to be nothing but a self-appointed (feminist-type) group with a one-track POV agenda, snooping into people's private lives, rubbing their hands with glee as they sensationalize things that no-one is asking them to do -- they are nothing but a de facto "organizational-tabloid" (and often tabloids write mostly the truth, but who wants to get into such trash when it has no academic or scholarly value?) It is not the "Awareness Center"'s job to act like God and pass judgment on dead singers or anyone else for that matter. There are many mental health professionals that can render professional assistance to people who think they need help, and there are abundant rabbinical organizations that can deal with this type of thing, and there are also plenty of lawyers who can be hired to do the job of legal representation of alleged victims, but to create a "political circus" to "out" people (on the Internet yet) makes little sense from any perspective. In Carlebach's instance, he is dead, millions of Jews have listened to -- and loved -- his music whether they know it or not, and some latter-day "do gooders" want to "crucify" him, how quaint. On the other hand the Rick Ross article you link to actually conveys Carlebach's complexity a lot better as it's title indicates: "A Paradoxical Legacy: Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach's Shadow Side" [2] ... but then again, many famous people have "shadow sides" and that does not mean it has to be part of a scholarly article. (Shadows, like dreams, are hard to interpret).IZAK 04:26, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I came to the article to read about the allegations. Wikipedia is not hagiography. EG, the Mother Teresa article has over a page of criticism. However, for an article of such short length, a sentence seems like it would suffice.--Wasabe3543 12:20, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Has this ever reached the courts? Otherwise it is simply libel and should stay OFF Wikipedia. Does the name John Seigenthaler Jr. mean anything to you? JFW | T@lk 18:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Do you mean John Siegenthaler Sr.? What you're missing is that the Siegenthaler allegations were admittedly made up entirely by Brian Chase--and were subsequently given their own section in the article on Siegenthaler. Let me ask you, do you think that the speculation contained in the article on Edgar Hoover should be removed?--Wasabe3543 02:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Famous almost only for being a musician???

If the article on Britney Spears talks about some obscure sentence she said about how we should all trust the President, if the article on Randi Rhodes (liberal talk show host) mentions that she audited college classes she was too poor to pay for, if the article on President Bush mentions his kid's names even though his kids are irrelevant to the Presidency, if Winona's shoplifting is mentioned when she is mostly known for being an actress, etc etc etc etc etc, then why shouldn't we mention a scandal? Is it because you're a fan? Should we care about your agenda?

BS"D

I have no axe to grind against Shlomo Carlebach. Without evidence of sexual harrassment, he gets my dan l'kaf zchus (benefit of the doubt). However, I have a MAJOR axe to grind against the protection of a person's legacy at the expense of information. I have another major axe to grind against someone who shouts "feminist" to dismiss people who claim sexual harrassment.

These are the arguments I've seen here against including womanizing/sexual harrassment. 1)Carlebach was a musician. His personal life is irrelevant.

- He was a musician, but he was also an unconventional celebrity with a hug fan base. He led a unique lifestyle for an Orthodox Rabbi, and held atypical views. Many of his fans were attracted to his music because of his personality and charisma. He was famous for Kiruv (outreach) and in/famous for womanizing, even if he never was a womanizer (whatever that means). We can not say that he actually sexually abused or harrassed anyone. We can say that he was accused of _______ by person _______or group ________, although he was never found guilty or even brought to court. Enough accusations have been made for a sentence or two to be written.

2)The people who claim harrassment are feminists

-How about if whenever you write an article, someone writes that what you say doesn't matter cause you're whatever kind of Jew you are. That seems similar enough. Namecalling is not reason. Your disagreement with a group's agenda is irrelevant.

3)Carlebach has not been brought to court and found innocent or guilty. -And that's just what needs to be said. After we say that accusations have been made. Ice 9 08:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Ice: Are you sure you are interested in Shlomo Carlebach? Perhaps it's Mendel Beilis or Captain Dreyfus and their trials that is better suited to your interests? They were ONLY famous for being put on trial and for the accusations they had to face. You know, maybe, just to be consistent we should add what kind of musical voices they had and what music and singing Beilus and Dreyfus liked in and and out of jail because it's directly part of who they were, right? You see, it's not a question of being a fan of someone or not, it's rather a question of presenting who they were primarily and what they were famous for. Similarly, the ins and outs of what Napoleon did with Josephine (and how and why he did it) and what Lord Nelson did with Lady Hamilton is not central to the fact these men were military commanders and leaders, and while their private lives may make for titillating and prurient reading, it has nothing to do with what they were most famous for and what their contributions to history really are. Conversely, there are many people in Israeli history, such as Levi Eshkol, Motta Gur and Moshe Dayan, who were well-known womanizers, yet nothing gets into their bigraphies, especially on Wikipedia, because it's NOT what they were famous for. Not every tabloid item (even if it has some alleged validity) needs to be placed into an encyclopedia article. It's a question of balance and focus, versus including any and all allegations against a person, especially someone who is no longer alive to deny the accusations against him. Wikipedia is not meant to be the "virtual kangaroo court" of latter-day histories and biographies. P.S. Your last line is hilarious: "Carlebach has not been brought to court and found innocent or guilty. -And that's just what needs to be said. After we say that accusations have been made." This is something that can be said about every human on Earth: "____ has not been brought to court and found innocent or guilty." After all which human does not have someone in their lives who has "accusations" of something against them going all the way back to second grade when kids start "accusing" their "friends" and classmates of all sorts of things? -- a process which continues into adulthood and never ends as long as people are people and are alive. But this would be no reason to drag anyone we have ever accused of anything into court. It still needs to be asked why these women who claim to have been "molested" by Carlebach were not heard from while he was alive? Maybe they were waiting to be with him again and loved it, and now many years later, prompted by a culture of "glorifying victims" and with prodding from psychotherapists they undergo a "new awakening" and decide that Carlebach was "not nice" to them after-all. You know, people get more cranky as they get older, and they tend to overlook their own youthful indiscretions and are then more than willing to "pin the blame" on "big bad men". It's not just feminism, we also live in an era of rabid activist anti-male Lesbianism. Something for you to chew on... IZAK 12:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about pictures?

Would it be too much to ask to put at least one picture of him?! What kind of article is this? Tzadik 04:34, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

• Tzadik: Go ahead, find pictures that will meet all the qualifications and criteria stated in Wikipedia:Images upload them and then post them to your heart's content? By the way, what do you mean with your question of "What kind of article is this?" ? IZAK 07:32, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if that comment offended you... but I was just a bit surprised to find an article about a person, with not even one picture of the person. Tzadik 14:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

OK.. I added one. What do you think? -- Tzadik 14:53, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Tzadik:Don't be silly, I don't get offended so quick. The picture looks great and you have given it the proper attribution. Good job! IZAK 15:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I added a publicity photo/poster from one of his press kits back in the 1980s. Since this was distributed specifically for reproduction and bears no copyright markings, my assumption would be that it fits the criteria for a "generic event poster" and I classified it as such. My justification for using it here is that it illustrates him being portrayed as "The Singing Rabbi" as described in the text. Rooster613 12:24, 7 July 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] 3-22 - additions from anon IP

Regarding these changes. The first part seems to suffer from weasel words and the second isn't verified. If the author or anyone else would like to rectify these two problems, please do. --Bachrach44 04:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allegations, yet again

The following cannot be part of the article since it's just hearsay and gossip:

"Several women have alleged that they were sexually abused by Carlebach, however, these allegations are unproven, and while they were raised privately during his lifetime, they were only made public to the media after his death. Reports have also been published stating Carlebach's family attempted to have a New York city street named after him, but after an article featuring the allegation of abuse was published, they dropped the request. Link:Sexual abuse and cult awareness"

Carlebach was neither indicted nor convicted of any of these latter-day "allegations" thus it is NOT Wikipedia's job to act as a kangaroo court placing Carlebach on "trial" posthumously. IZAK 07:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

How is it hearsay? The paragraph states that allegations were made, not that they were true or untrue. The information presented merely reports that allegations were made. This can't be hearsay, since it is reporting something that is public via multiple sources. Ckessler

• Excuse me Ckessler: The so-called "allegations" were not made in a court of law and are meaningless. Your are abusing the word "allegations" and bandying it about loosely. These are just "stories" that come from doubtful sources (women in therapy?) It seems that these women were (or may have been) very happy to go to bed with Carlebach when he was alive, so how can it be "sexual abuse" now? Let's not get dumb, ok? IZAK 08:03, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

So those women are discounted because he was the great and powerful rebbe, and they were in therapy? Just because the allegations were not made in a court of law, they are allegations nontheless. You don't know the circumstances under which these acts did/did not occur. You might as well be saying that all women who say they are sexually abused are lying. Ckessler

• Ckessler: Now it is your politics of Feminism that is showing up, and this article is not the place to score points. First of all, Carlebach was not a "rebbe" in the correct sense of the term, so I don't know where you get that from. He was a singer of Jewish songs and a teller of Jewish tales, and in-between he was a teacher-rabbi who had some students, nothing like a Hasidic dynasty at all. In fact he was disowened by the Lubavitchers for not being Hasidic enough. Secondly, famous popular singers always attract groupies: ("A groupie is a person who, while she/he may be a fan on some level, seeks intimacy (most often physical, sometimes emotional) with a famous person, usually a rock band member...Female groupies in particular are known for a long-standing tradition of being available for, and willing to have, sexual intercourse with celebrities, rock stars and athletes. While perhaps only a small number of groupies are truly promiscuous in that they are willing to trade sexual favors for attention, the tradition of "rock and roll groupies" continues to the present day, contributing to the image of the rock-and-roll lifestyle as one where sex and drugs are readily available at any time." [Wikipedia]) Thus it could be safe to say that most of the women were almost certainly once groupies. Thirdly, "allegations" is a very serious term in law, look it up, and is used as part of a build-up to a trial and there has been none that anyone has heard of involving Carlebach. Finally, it should be very clear that we are NOT dealing with any form of "sexual abuse" here whatsoever. True sexual abuse is bad, and has no justification. If anything, it was loose morals (or lack of morality) but it is requires a great leap of the imagination to go from what were once seen as "cool cutting-edge" behaviors that pushed the envelope of decency to deciding now that they can be re-classified as acts of "sexual abuse" which they are not. (Could be that in the minds of therapists maybe, but this article is not about their views on life.) IZAK 08:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but where was shomer negiah? If Carlebach was any kind of Orthodox Jew, he should not have had any kind of physical contact with anyone of the opposite gender. Aside from these charges, Carlebach was known for his touchy-feely approach. Because of your bias, of course, you refuse to see it, but why is it so hard to believe that someone who would violate such an important tenant of Orthodoxy would step over the line? Ckessler

• Ckessler: You are displaying a poor sense of logic. When one breaks the laws of shomer negiah one is NOT committing "sexual abuse"! Carlebach was not "any kind of Orthodox Jew" -- he was Shlomo Carlebach and he was controversial. At no point have I, or anyone, denied that he was "touchy-feely" -- in fact he was proud of his approach and he had a rationale for it which some people close to him, including the females you now want to "defend" bought into. Interesting that now you choose not to respond to the fact that women who come into close contact with famous performers are probably groupies, why don't you say something about that? This therefore places a great cloud of doubt and unreliablity on any so-called latter-day "allegations". This is not about Orthodoxy, this is about Carlebach (the two are not the same thing, another point you fail to grasp!) I am striving for accuracy of fact and in language, whereas you are throwing words about very loosely for what should be an encyclopedic article, and Wikipedia is not a soapbox for any pre-conceived views. IZAK 08:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Rationalize all you like. You wouldn't go out, eat a porkchop, and come up with a rationale for it. Carlebach was a Hassid, it's stated in the article. I've spent time in the religious community, especially in the Baal teshuva community, and there is no reason they would ever violate shomer negiah. What does violating shomer negiah have to do with sexual abuse? A lack of boundaries.

And as for the groupie argument, groupies are generally proud of what they do. They don't have sex with famous musicians and then cry sexual abuse. Typical blame the victim approach.

You're running around in circles. The issue here is not whether or not Carlebach did what he was accused of. The issue is that no accusations are being made in this article. It is merely reporting something that is on the public record. The information added is pure fact. It states that allegations were made, but never proven. Ckessler

• Ckessler:Let me start with your last point first: If "allegations were made, but never proven" then they do NOT belong in the article because it will invarioubly cause guilt by association which is a very underhanded way of saying something that otherwise could not be said. Now, this contradicts your previous point about "reporting something that is on the public record" because if it was "never proven" it's not a "public record" (do you see how loosely you throw about words and skip over logic?) You even say: "The issue here is not whether or not Carlebach did what he was accused of." So then, if "no accusations are being made in this article" and if Carlebach may even not have done "what he was accused of" so then why do you talk about it in pseudo-legalese terms that "something is on the public record" or that "allegations were made, but never proven" the combination of which is most definitely NOT "pure fact" (what is the "fact" exactly and how could they be "facts" if they were only "allegations"?). Do you see how your logic is out of joint? Then you suddenly seem to know what all "groupies" do years later, do you honestly think none of them have "cried to their therapists" or is only Carlebach being singled out here because he is a prominent Jewish religious singer? You know, you also admit that he was guilty of a "lack of boundaries" but that (like not holding to shomer negiah) would not make him guilty of "sexual abuse" as claimed. Finally, Carelbach was NOT a "Hassid" (he spoke about the subject, as he did about many subjects.) He was closer to being a Hippie rabbi serving Jews caught up in the the 1960s counterculture. (See "Hippie: ...Though not a cohesive cultural movement with manifestos and leaders, some hippies expressed their desire for change with communal or nomadic lifestyles, by renouncing corporate influence, consumerism and the Vietnam War, by embracing aspects of non-Judeo-Christian religious cultures (including much Eastern philosophy), and with criticism of Western middle class values...Hippies of the time were interested in "tuning in to their inner minds" (with or without drugs or mystic meditation) and improving mainstream society. Influence in hippie culture is sometimes akin to Eastern religions, philosophies, and associations. [Wikipedia]) There is more to all of this than meets the eye, so please do not accuse me of "running around in circles" when I question your insertion of comments for your own POV purposes. IZAK 09:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I read all the arguments and would like to add a few words. While I agree with IZAK that spurious claims of sexual abuse by Carlebach should be avoided, it is important to give a balanced picture of Carlebach's character. The way the article is written now makes him sound like a wonderful Jewish singer who made a lot of people happy, and nothing more. This kind of rosy biography-writing also smacks of POV, as it leaves out any mention of him being controversial in mainstream Orthodox circles. Some points to incorporate:

1. Carlebach was not an "Orthodox Rabbi" in the sense that Rav Schach was an Orthodox Rabbi. Ckessler is right: any "Orthodox rabbi" who violates shomer negiah cannot be called an Orthodox rabbi. Using this term in the article really demeans all the other Orthodox Rabbis included in Wikipedia, and it should be deleted. (How about "a self-styled Rabbi"?)
2. Carlebach did go beyond the bounds of Orthodox rabbinics by playing up to (and hugging and kissing) women at his concerts—for which he was censored by the Orthodox world—and he did open a quasi-hippie "House of Love and Prayer" in San Francisco. Even today, a "Carlebach minyan" is known as a fringe service that doesn't attract many mainstream Orthodox worshippers. This point needs to be addressed. Carlebach did make a lot of baalei teshuvah through his work (this point also needs to be mentioned), but his image was rather tarnished by it.
3. I object to the use of the loaded word, "cult." Carlebach may have been a guru, but he wasn't a cult leader. Anyone who "joined" his movement had freedom of access, kept possession of their passport, and didn't have to fork over tons of money. A groupie movement, yes; a cult, no way.

I vote for a more balanced picture. The introduction should be rewritten to refer to his controversial kiruv activities. More should be said about what he did in Haight-Ashbury. And a new section should be written about his un-Orthodox ways of spreading the faith. Within the latter section (not as a separate section) can be paragraphs about his womanizing at concerts and allegations of sexual abuse. I would also like to see the link to the Awareness Center rewritten so it doesn't hit you between the eyes with such an inflammatory title ("Sexual abuse and cult awareness! Read all about it!").

P.S. Ckessler: Please date your entries so we can follow the discussion better. Thanks. Yoninah 14:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I find the whole thing pretty distasteful and of remote relevance. Yes, we should cover the fact that many mainstream orthodox leaders had their misgivings about Carlebach's methods and style, but the abuse stuff is not acceptable. None of this has gone on the official record. JFW | T@lk 17:17, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

When writing about individuals one must be even more careful to include only verifiable information from reliable sources; I'm dubious of the sources listed here, and the nature of the anonymous allegations. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:42, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me throw my two shekels in here, since I was born in 1947 and remember Shlomo Carlebach in the 1960s quite well. Regarding calling him a rabbi, it is my understanding that he did have smichah, even if he became rather unconventional later. He most definitely was known as "The Singing Rabbi" in his day -- I still have brochures describing him as such -- so let's not deprive him of the title in the name of revisionism. Regarding shomer negiah, I think we need to keep in mind that the Haredi movement as it exists today simply did not exist in the USA back in the 1960s. Yes, there were a few yeshivas and shuls in New York that were strictly shomer negiah, but, on the whole, the majority of Orthodox Jews in the rest of the USA at that time were Modern Orthodox who watched TV, went to movies, dressed up for Halloween, and did not object to mixed dancing at proms, or even to low-cut dresses for weddings. (Orthodox in my Philadelphia suburb meant shomer Shabbos and a kosher kitchen, but nothing very distinctive in public, not even a yarmulke in most cases.) My parents' generation were into "Hanukkah bushes" and nose jobs to "blend in" with American society. Frumkeit was old-fashioned stuff for Bubbe and Zayde and remained so until the late 70s -- so let's not re-write history, even if some people do have their wedding pictures re-touched to be more modest than they really were 40 years ago. The reality is, the Haredi Judaism of today is not "the faith of our fathers," it is a post-World War II revivalist phenomenon. The majority of Holocaust survivors arrived in the USA minus payos and beards, and only later did the Hasidic movement go through a major revival in the mid-80s and 90s, where people came out as Orthodox in public dress and appearance. (When I moved to Minneapolis in 1976, I was the only Jew in the city with payos -- and was repeatedly told that I was an "embarrassment" because of it. All the Orthodox in the Twin Cities were clean-shaven.) Carlebach was unconventional, yes -- but more for hanging out with hippies, who were, after all, a "threatening" counter-culture to begin with. Therefore, I think we should judge Carlebach within the context of his own generation, not retroactively defrock him according to the strictnesses of a movement that evolved a generation later. And I would also ask: Does the now-popular Hasidic hip-hop singer, Matisyahu, have men and women separated at his concerts? I think not. Rooster613 April 24, 2006

Uploaded a publicity poster of him as "the Singing Rabbi" circa early 1980s. This was sent in a press kit for a concert on the University of Minnesota campus. Justification for use here is that it illustrates the point under discussion. Also, we should note, this was the same era when The Singing Nun was popular. Whether this influenced the use of "SDinging Rabbi" I do not know. Rooster613 12:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)Rooster613

[edit] Wikipedia:Libel

All Wikipedia editors are obligated to abide by the guidelines in Wikipedia:Libel:

This page in a nutshell: It is Wikipedia policy to delete libellous revisions from the page history. If you believe you have been defamed, please contact the help desk.

"The goal of Wikipedia is to create an encyclopedic information source adhering to a neutral point-of-view style of prose, with all information being referenced through the citation of reliable published sources, so as to maintain a standard of verifiability. For this reason, all contributors should recognize that it is their responsibility to ensure that material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory. It is Wikipedia policy to delete libellous revisions from the page history."

Please note, that much of what the The Awareness Center puts up on its site for its own POV purposes and for its own agenda, (sadly, even though it may not realize or mean it, it de facto becomes little different to the anti-Semitic Jew Watch site and thereby helping it in its nefarious goals) and these would not meet Wikipedia's criteria for avoiding libel. IZAK 01:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that helping victims of sexual abuse involved a POV. Guess those kinds of things don't happen in your community. Ckessler 07:35, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• Your Good Samaritanism is truly overwhelming. But as I said, you should not be editing this article if you want to "help" "sexual abuse victims" because for that there is a different article for you to work on at sexual abuse, and again it just proves that you have no interest in the subject of this article at all beyond using it as a vehicle for your agenda, which is what makes what you do POV. I have no argument with those who want to solve sexual abuse, but what you are doing here is just character assassination that will help no-one! And since you seem to worry so much about "shommer negiah" are you aware that what you are doing here is 100% against the laws of spreading Lashon hara (the Jewish concept about what constitutes gossip, slander, and defamation) ? Evidently you just pick-and-choose any avenue by grasping at any straws to express your clearly expressed prejudices against Rabbi Carlebach, and that too reveals your bias (something you chose to "accuse" me of -- that I am "Orthodox" which you use in an anti-Semitic fashion -- right off the bat in this wearisome dialogue.) IZAK 20:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

You're so concerned about lashon hara, yet you have no qualms about referring to certain women (even if we don't know them by name) as groupies, which is just a polite euphemism for someone who got what they deserved? Ckessler 09:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Legally speaking, you cannot commit libel or slander against a dead man 68.100.239.10 04:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC) David Itkin 2/4/07

[edit] Controversy Section

As discussed earlier in the talk page, I attempted to add a section discussing the controversy over Carlebach's work, which was reverted. Here are stories from more mainstream sources on this:

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/newscontent.php3?artid=9867. "Facing A Mixed Legacy." The Jewish Week. http://www.arigoldman.com/articles/carlebach.html Carlebach's obit from the New York Times. http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5763/5763winter/CARLBACH.PDF: "Probing the Carlebach Phenomenon" The Orthodox Union. Should I go on? Ckessler

• "Go on" about what? You are failing to understand the many points under discussion here and instead all you seem to be focused on is inserting opinions by journalists and others. None of these articles "prove" that Carlebach was some sort of "unindicted sex offender" which is all you seem to want to do to this person, which is a pity, since no article should become a vehicle for your fuzzy agenda. Finally, Please type the FOUR tildes ~~~~ which will also add the date to your name. You seem to be using three tildes which only records your name and confuses the timing of your comments.) Thank you. IZAK 03:42, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The information about the sexual abuse allegations was removed. All that was left was verifiable information about Carlebach's unconventional approach. Sinner or saint, the fact remains that Carlebach's approach differed from Orthodox conventions. Give it a rest. Ckessler 04:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Verifiable yes, well-sourced, no. JFW | T@lk 07:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Ckessler, please stop adding the controversy section until you've reached an agreement with the other editors on the page. First and foremost, you have to find reputable sources, then stick very closely to what they say, without adding your own opinion. See WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:RS. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:15, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

SV, I gave three reputable sources for this information, one of which is a detailed article from a Jewish publication. I will add the sources to the article. Ckessler 08:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The imperative of "citing your sources" means citing articles in print. Even though I have two friends who both attended Shlomo Carlebach concerts and were both hugged and kissed by him, I cannot write it in Wikipedia unless it was already published in print. It appears to me that Ckessler has adequately sourced her additions by citing relevant publications. As long as she steers clear of unverified allegations of sexual abuse, I think her amendations should stand. Yoninah 08:46, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ordaining of women

Can the following be fully clarified BEFORE it is put in. Who else confirms this? IZAK 20:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

"He also ordained women, a practice which is not permitted by Halakha. ^[1]"

Sources that verify Carlebach ordained women: http://www.hadassah.com/news/content/per_hadassah/archive/2004/04_MAY/isr-amer.asp
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Gottlieb.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20041019024127/www.jewishsf.com/bk020308/sf25.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/21/national/21RABB.html?ex=1143867600&en=9be8c039bb34bbfe&ei=5070
Ckessler 00:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic and unreliable sources

It seems that there is no clear "proof" that Rabbi Carlebach "ordained" any women. User:Ckessler "citations" and "sources" disprove her own point, if we carefully read each "source" above:

1. "Source A" says that Carlebach was a "mentor" to "Mimi Feigelson": "Feigelson is an ordained Orthodox rabbi, though she does not refer to herself that way. When Carlebach gave Feigelson smikha in Israel in 1994, she kept it quiet and has never used the title rabbi or rav. Feigelson sensed the potential for marginalization within the Orthodox world should she make it public. So she kept it a secret until a reporter at a Jewish newspaper “outed” her in 2000." The problem here is that Rabbi Carlebach DIED in 1994 -- the year she claims to have "become a rabbi" by him, so when did it happen exactly, and why was it "a secret" fo so long? See "Source D" below for another description of what really happened.
2. "Source B" is from "Seymour "Sy" Brody of Delray Beach, Florida, illustrated by Art Seiden of Woodmere, New York, and published by Lifetime Books, Inc., Hollywood, FL." -- a totally unknown and unreliable source. Is "Sy Brody" a rabbi or scholar that ANYONE relies on for information about Judaism? The lady "rabbi" in question here, Lynn Gottlieb, CANNOT be believed UNLESS she can produce a verified signed ordination with Rabbi Carlebach's signature on it that, as that article claims: "Gottlieb turned to Rabbis Zalman Schachter, Everett Gendler and Shlomo Carlebach, who were leaders in alternative Judaism. They ordained her as a rabbi in 1981." Can anyone but Gotlieb verify that it happened? Just because "Sy Brody" writes pop-type book about "celebrities" does NOT make it "true" either. There is plenty of "junk literature" and "original research" out there (see vanity press to understand this phenomenon)! Perhaps it was Zalman Schachter who did it or the Golem, who knows? At any rate it's not "proof" of anything except that you can publish anything you want (and it gets repeated on the Internet) and get away with it.
3. "Source C" just repeats the shaky story about Mimi Feigelson as in "Source A" and in fact adds further doubts to her claim: "At 16, she began studying with Carlebach and continued to do so for 16 years. While ordination was not her goal when she began studying with him, after years of rigorous learning, she felt she was qualified and asked for smicha. He gave it to her in Jerusalem." Now what exactly happened? Does she have a signed document to prove it, or she just full of it? We shall never know because, very conveniently, it was the year Rabbi Carlebach died! Furthermore the article states she teaches for Conservative Judaism institutions, so that would make her claims to "Orthodoxy" extremely suspect and VERY unreliable! "Source D" kills this one too!
4. "Source D" (and you need a NY Times password to get into this one) actually REFUTES BOTH "Source C" and "Source A" and thus makes User:Ckessler "claims" silly and obtuse. Here is what the Times reports: "One, Mimi Feigelson, said she had studied for ordination with Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, the songwriter and singer, and was ordained after he died in 1994 by a panel of three rabbis, whose names she refused to make public." So now Feigelson's "story" changes! According to the Times she ONLY "studied for ordination with Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach" -- however "after he died in 1994" she was "ordained...by a panel of three rabbis" which makes the story even more suspect, because who the "three rabbis" are is not revealed (in the article at least.)

So here you have it, it's all a bunch of baloney! But what really intrigues me is that the same people ("feminists") who seem to be "cheering on" Rabbi Carlebach for his supposed willingness to "ordain" women (thus making him a "good guy" in their eyes) are at the same time digging for dirt about him that he took sexual advantage of women too (which makes him a "bad guy") which makes it seem that they simply do not know much about, nor do they care much for, Rabbi Carlebach "The Singing Rabbi" himself. IZAK 03:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not your job to decide which sources you deem valid. The information is sourced, and that is all that is required. Ckessler 03:57, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, I am not "deciding" anything! I just read all the "sources" you cite and they contradict each other. And in fact according to the NY Times article Rabbi Carlebach specifically did NOT ordain Feigelson, which makes the other sources look like blatant lies. Why not check what you cite next time! You seem to miss the point about what a source means in academic terms, it's not meant as a "license" to "cite" every crazy claim on the planet and "present it" as the "truth" ! IZAK 04:08, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted Changes

Izak, you are trying my patience. Why are you removing cited information without discussing it on the talk page? This page has been in dispute before, over this very same information. Discuss it here, or leave it alone. Ckessler 05:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• Ck: Take a careful look, I did NOT remove a single thing ! I actually s p r e a d it out to make it more readable. You owe me an apology. IZAK 05:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I am very sorry, I jumped to conclusions after our previous issues with this page. Please accept my apologies. 05:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

• Ck: Don't worry, I know you mean well, and that we both mean the best, it just takes some time to get there, until someone else will get involved that is... IZAK 05:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I think that the Awareness Center link should be deleted. It is highly personal and since the case is not mentioned in the article, it shocks to see the link there.

• So do it. IZAK 12:25, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links to allegations of abuse, again

I've tried to add an external link to an article that does provide sources for the allegations of sexual impropriety. My link was to the original Lilith magazine article that first brought the allegations out from gossip and into a verifiable (or refutable) form, in an obtainable publication, not from the awareness center or luke ford or some site with an obvious agenda besides dispassionate investigation. Why is this external link inappropriate. I can understand why the allegations need to be tied to a reputable source, but not why they should be excised entirely. It's definitely a part of the man's public legacy 68.100.239.10 04:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)David Itkin 2/4/07

While I agree with your stance on this, as my past history on this talk page suggests, an admin has stated that the link should not be added again. Ckessler 05:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The admin said The Awareness Center external link should come down. I agree. Vicki Polin is not a reputable source for Wikipedia. But no one ever tried posting the original Lilith Article. I think there's a world of difference between The Awareness Center and Lilith. 68.100.239.10 05:07, 5 February 2007 (UTC) David Itkin 2/4/07

No, I've tried linking that article before, and it was rejected. It's not considered a reliable source. Please stop adding the link, and read the entire discussion. Ckessler 05:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The passive voice is always a red flag. "It's not considered a reliable source." Who doesn't consider Lilith a reliable source? Why? 68.100.239.10 05:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC) David Itkin

If you would read the entire discussion, as I have politely requested, and you obviously have not done, you would know. I've tried this debate from every angle, and the answer was still the same. You shouldn't be an exception to the rule. Ckessler 05:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I've read the entire discussion, as you politely requested. I'm sorry, but I can find no rejection of the Lilith article. I've seen a lot of rejections of The Awareness Center's stuff and a lot of general discussion about whether this kind of allegation belongs here, but the consensus seems to be that the allegations don't belong here unless they come from a reliable, published source. I think Lilith is such a source. I'm sorry you were unable to win this point in the past.

I hear the frustration in your "every angle" complaint, but honestly, if the Lilith angle has been considered and rejected, I cannot see where that shows up on this discussion page. I'm not being purposely obtuse, I really can't find it. 68.100.239.10 05:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)David Itkin

Yes, an independent feminist mag, no bias there. I'll go ahead and drop the argument, until someone else comes along and tries to remove it. Ckessler 06:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ckessler, the link looks legit to me. Other sources that mention the alleged sexual misconduct are the Guardian and JewishJournal. It's unfortunate and sad that there are leaders in the Jewish community who are sexual predators. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 09:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm very disappointed. Lilith is a reputable source and this article: Lilith Magazine Allegations of Sexual Impropriety should appear on the page. 207.197.214.38 15:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)David Itkin

Yes, it is definitely disappointing that there exist some in spiritual leadership roles supposedly involved in kiruv who use their position of power to prey on those vulnerable who trust them and come to them for guidance in Judaism. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 18:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

This issue is in arbitration. The Lilith article consists of unfounded allegations by mostly unnamed people, and those named were minors [aged 12 and the like!] when they claim to have been "abused." Reb Shlomo was never taken to court over any of these allegations in his lifetime; but almost as soon as he passed on, these allegations came out. Even at that famous "Rosh Chodesh confrontation," most of the participants were afraid to say anything -- how come? We should wait for the arbitration to weigh in on this one. BTW, perhaps "Rachel" in this article is none other than Vicki Polin [of the infamous "awareness [sic] center"], who used that pseudonym on the Ophrah Winfrey show in 1989, when she accused her own family of cannibilism? Demblin 14:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

This is simply an external link to a reliable source and meets WP standards, whether you like the content or not. Not only that, there are other sources (the Guardian, Jewish Journal & many others) that discuss this. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 15:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

And the last entry on the mediation page for this issue is April Fool's Day, 2006. Is "arbitration" another word for "permanently tabled with the status quo to remain indefinitely"? I'm just askin' 207.197.214.38 15:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)David Itkin

Lilith is not a reliable source, it has an agenda. As I mentioned, there is no hardcore evidence, only hearsay and allegations, or testimony from one named person who was a minor of 12 years of age when it supposedly "happened." I'll keep removing it, it won't help you. Let the mediator decide! Demblin 16:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The link is fine and meets WP standards. You are attempting to push your personal POV. We don't do "puff" pieces or whitewashing at WP. We present balanced material. If you are talking about this long dead mediation case, it was between IZAK and Chessler and was specifically about adding content to the article, not about this external link. Now that you mention it, perhaps there should be more about this in the article body. If you keep removing the link, you are acting against policy and you will be reverted. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 16:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Would this be an appropriate addition to the Concerts and controversy section? -> After Carlebach's death, Lilith magazine, a Jewish feminist publication, catalogued allegations of sexual impropriety against him Lilith Magazine Allegations of Sexual Impropriety. Specific, named accusers are quoted in this article, as well as unnamed sources and Jewish communal leaders with knowledge of the allegations. The publication of these allegations has proven controversial, lodged, as they were, after Carlebach could respond to his accusers. 207.197.214.38 17:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)David Itkin

That seems completely reasonable and an objective presentation of the existence of the allegations reported by Lilith, which was newsworthy enough to be mentioned in mainstream media. It's big enough that it would be inappropiate to leave it out of the article. I would add the Guardian and Jewish Journal sources as references. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 17:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

David, on your edit, we can't reference this talk page though... Hold on, I'm going to properly source this. Btw, have you considered creating an official Wikipedia account? --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 17:35, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I've created an account. I won't try to post again until I've studied up a bit. Thank you for resolving this and for helping me do things properly.David in DC 17:45, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Oy Vey! David in DC 19:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)David in DC

[edit] To our newcomers

We don't need to revert war. Let me bring one of the WP policies to the attention of newcomers Demblin and David in Dc: 3-Revert-Rule which essentially prohibits any editor from reverting more than three times in an article in a 24-hour period.

Meanwhile, the Lilith external link meets policy standards. However, since I've added it as a reference to the article body, it's actually unnecessary to have as an external link. Sources in the article body are preferable to external links anyway, if they can be incorporated, which we have now done. --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 19:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

Hello from the old world
: I changed the year of birth from 1925 to 1926 according to: Sabine Niemann (Ed.): Die Carlebachs, eine Rabbinerfamilie aus Deutschland , Ephraim-Carlebach-Stiftung (Hrsg). Dölling und Galitz. Hamburg 1995, ISBN 3-926174-99-4 (German), published in 1995 by Ephraim Carlebach foundation in Leipzig, Germany. And I added other facts I took from the book. According to this book he died on October 20th, not on October 22nd. Has anybody got further information? --MrsMyer 17:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Mrs. Meyer, It appears you are correct about the date of death, but as far as the date of birth is concerned, both "Holy Brother" [ISBN 0-7657-5959-4] and "Reb Shlomele" give the year as 1925. Most sources that I've read give his age at death as 69, which would indicate a 1925 year of birth. The "Reb Shlomele" book also brings [on pp. 78-79] a photo of a page from The Jerualem Post Magazine of April 20, 1995, giving the year of birth as 1925. Perhaps someone can contact a family member to find out. Demblin 14:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Demblin, sorry I haven't any other sources about his dates apart from the book mentioned above. So I leave it to you. Two other sources are better than one. --MrsMyer 15:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to change it back, then; if anyone can confirm otherwise, please let us know.Demblin 11:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Demblin and MrsMyer and Eliyak
: I changed the date of death based on the news article referred to, dated Oct. 22, 1994, which was a Saturday, but referring to the date of death being on the Thursday previously, i.e. Oct. 20, 1994.. I saw this date elsewhere but didn't note the source or sources. I would note that the previous date, listed as Oct. 22, 1994, was also unsourced. ZMbenChaim 03:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

: Furthermore, I note that Neshama Carlebach, one of R. Carlebach's daughters, herself refers to her father's 10th yuhrtzeit as being October 31, 2004 (10th year], the same as 16 Kislev, which in 1994 was on Thu. Oct. 20, at night. I saw a reference, again I didn't note the source, that R. Carelebach died at night. Her web-site is the source for this and is one of the external links. ZMbenChaim 03:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)