Talk:Shiraz (grape)

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[edit] Shiraz vs Syrah

(This article should be titled Syrah grape)

Note to anonymous user who reverted a change on Shiraz/Syrah - it is quite common for Australian and Californian Shiraz wines to be labelled Syrah. If you don't believe me, do a Google search on Australia and Syrah and see what comes up. seglea 07:30, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'd say that well under 10% of Australian Shiraz is labled Syrah based on the (large) selection in the local supermarkets and wine shops here in New Zealand. For example the New Zealand magazine Cuisine (Jul 2003 issue 93) has an article on Aussie Shiraz (pg 157 to 163) which reviews 106 Australian Shiraz's, only 1 (Rosemount Estate 1998 Balmoral Syrah) was called Syrah. So while not unheard of I wouldn't personally call it common. Htaccess 09:39, 1 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It may be a matter of where in the world you live. In the New York/New Jersey area of the U.S., Shiraz imported from Australia is very rarely called Syrah. As for what California wines from this grape are called, that is another matter entirely. My impression is that most are labeled Syrah, but I don't know that anyone said that they weren't. As for a search on Australia and Syrah on Google, I'm not sure what that proves. If you look at the pages that come up, often the words "Australia" and "Syrah" are found on the same page, but not necessarily applying to the same wines. Very commonly, the same on-line store is advertising Australian Shiraz and California Syrah. -- Alan W 04:03, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have now done an extensive rewrite that attempts to incorporate as many viewpoints as possible. Nevertheless, I do not feel it is anything but misleading to leave the reader with an impression other than that, in the words of "Oz Clarke's Encyclopedia of Grapes," "In Australia, it's almost always Shiraz." -- Alan W 04:49, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

One datum: Of all the Australian Shiraz/Syrah wines reviewed by the Wine Spectator (the biggest circulation U.S. wine magzine), 37 were labeled Syrah, and 1856 were Shiraz, a mere 2%. Not sure it is helpful to note the existance of Aussie Syrah in all but the most cursory of ways. Wnissen 03:44, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

OK, more data.

  • Google search on "Australian Syrah" gives 64 hits; "Australian Shiraz" gives more than 5000. Within the likely error of the methods, that agrees with Wnissen's data above.
  • Google search on "Californian Syrah" or "Californian Shiraz" gives almost none in either case
  • Google search on "California Syrah" gives 1790; "California Shiraz" gives 356

My conclusions:

  1. It is clearly wrong to say (as one of our pages did at one point) that Syrah is the French name and everyone else calls it Shiraz.
  2. It is clearly right to say that it is rare to see Australian wine labelled as Syrah, and I apologise for questioning it. I think the reason is that I am living in California, and because of the next point, we are more likely to see such Australian Syrahs as there are coming here - I normally live in the UK, and I never recall seeing an Australian Syrah label there, ever.
  3. Both names are used for California wines, but Syrah is more common; that accords with my impression from shopping here.

seglea 06:03, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, then, I think we are mostly in agreement now. I was the "anonymous" user (not that I was really anonymous; I think you just mistook me for someone else) who changed your 'It is common for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah"' to 'It is uncommon for Australian Shiraz wines to be labelled as "Syrah".' Like yourself, I have a scholarly background, and I would never make such a blunt, radical change in someone else's writing unless I felt I had a very good reason for it.

And, yes, I believe, as I did then, that it _is_ "clearly wrong to say ... that Syrah is the French name." That is why in my edit of 1 Feb 00:32 UTC I changed "It is known as Syrah in French" to "It is generally known as Syrah in France." Odd, about your Google search. I did the exact same search on "California Shiraz" and "California Syrah" and got "about 526" hits for the former and "about 2,660" hits for the latter. I think one may still draw similar conclusions, and I agree with you, but it is strange how the same search within a few hours can give such different results. -- Alan W 04:22, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Alan, I think I see some of the source of confusion. Syrah is a French word, period. Thus it is correct to say that Shiraz is generally known as Syrah in France. What about that statement seems incorrect? Wnissen 04:40, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Wnissen, nothing's wrong with "Shiraz is generally known as Syrah in France" -except that the way we were saying it at one stage (I have lost track of when and where) said or implied that it was called Shiraz everywhere else, which isn't true. Alan, that is weird about the Google searches - clearly these numbers should only be trusted to +/- an order of magnitude. However the conclusions do hold up. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I suppose I should be spending my time writing (or trying to write) great Wikipedia articles (or at least making useful edits, or whatever) instead of belaboring this topic to death, but I can't resist a couple of additional comments. :^) Wnissen, I take your word for it that "Syrah is a French word, period." But accepting that still does not dispel all confusion about wines from this grape (or related but not identical grapes, depending on your viewpoint). Oz Clarke's "Encyclopedia of Wine Grapes" says of wines from this grape in France: "In the Languedoc it may sometimes change its name to Shiraz, reflecting brand loyalty to the Australian style of sweeter, more chocolaty fruit." -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have to put an addendum on Clarke's language. The wine may be sold as Shiraz in countries that recognize that word legally, but I'm pretty sure we all call it Syrah last I checked. see my comments below mroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Surely the correct name of the grape is Syrah, which is known as Shiraz in certain places. The article implies that the reverse of this is true. There is actually no grape whose actual name is Shiraz. Quentin sadler

I don't think it is as simple as that. This is a known problem. Jancis Robinson, in her "Guide to Wine Grapes," gets around it by having two separate entries, one for Syrah and one for Shiraz, even though she believes they are the same grape. Oz Clarke, in his "Encyclopedia of Grapes," deals with this issue by calling the section on this grape "Syrah/Shiraz." The on-line "Winegrape Glossary" [1] also has separate coverage. In addition, it mentions that in Argentina before the late sixties it was called Balsamina! Somehow, maybe for historical reasons, Syrah does seem to me to be the principal name. But I don't think it is correct, either, to say that Shiraz is not its "actual" name. One grape may be known by different names in different places and at different times, and all names might in some sense be legitimate. -- Alan W 00:17, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The listing should clearly be under either both shiraz and syrah or just under syrah. Syrah is the primary name for this grape in English used by Jancis Robinson, Robert Parker, Steve Tanzer, and Clive Coates. The way the article is currently referenced makes it appear that "Shiraz" is the rule and "syrah" the exception. This is clearly wrong. Veniceslug1

As I sit here sipping a Washington syrah, I thought I should reiterate the consensus that seems to be forming above: the primary name of this entry should be "Syrah." This is the name of the grape in France, where it originated, and it is also the most common name attached to the grape in the United States. On the other hand, few wineries outside of Australia use the term "Shiraz." wschrive 1 Mar 2005

moved to more timely discussion tee heemroconnell 16:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australia vs Australian

Meanwhile, can anyone throw any light why it is "Australian" Shiraz (or Merlot or whatever), but almost always "California ..."? Or is this just a quirk of tradition? Come to think of it, from memory I think we have "Oregon", "New Zealand", "New York State" going like "California", but everywhere in Europe, and "South African", going like "Australian". Well, I guess it doesn't matter, but it's odd. It may just be that (thank goodness) we don't have words like "New Zealandian", but we do have "Californian". Hmmm. seglea 04:51, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And, seglea, we may hear people refer to "Australian" Shiraz and "California" Syrah, but, odd as that usage may seem, it has nothing to do with what appears on the wine labels (I'm not sure if you are implying any connection or not). Looking at some labels pictured in books I have (I don't happen to have any bottles of Syrah/Shiraz handy), I see "McDowell Syrah Mendocino" (from Mendocino County, California), "Penfolds Grange South Australia Shiraz," and so on. No "Californian," but no "Australian" either. -- Alan W 03:46, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Myth: Shiraz in Iran

I don't know why the old myth keeps resurfacing that links the name of the grape Shiraz with the city of Shiraz in Iran. Several sources I have cited earlier, above, demonstrate the likelihood that the grape Shiraz/Syrah originated in France. See Oz Clarke, "Encyclopedia of Grapes," Jancis Robinson, "Guide to Wine Grapes," and the "Winegrape Glossary" [2]. Shiraz, in what was then Persia, according to Hugh Johnson's "The Story of Wine," was a major center of wine production hundreds of years ago. Even then, Johnson points out that it is doubtful that the Crusader who was supposed to have initiated winegrowing in the Hermitage region, and possibly brought back the grape from the Middle East, ever visited Shiraz. Recent DNA studies suggest strongly, if not definitively, that Syrah/Shiraz originated in Eastern France, where it shows the greatest genetic diversity to this day. -- Alan W 05:45, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

There is an alternative theory - that the Syrah/Shiraz grape originated in Syracuse, Sicily. The many different versions of the name in use in Australia would suggest that "Shiraz" was a development of earlier names, rather than a reference to the Iranian city of that name. This theory has been boosted by the apparent similarity between the Syrah grape, and the native Sicilian Nero d'Avola, which many local producer feel are related, if not identical. --MB63 11:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by anonymous user

Edits made to provide more clarity on the use of Shiraz/Syrah and explain the professional motivation for the choice between the two. Also, more information provided on the taste characteristics of Shiraz and specific practical examples given for the student of wine. 5 Jan 2005

I've removed the redundant notes on this talk page. The last, anonymous, user accidentally duplicated the page while editing. I will add that I do not know why that user is hiding behind anonymity. His or her edits of the Shiraz grape article are excellent. Although not all contributors will agree with some of the changes, I think a great improvement has been made in the writing, the accuracy, the completeness, and the clarity of thought. And I include changes to my own writing when I say this. Whoever you are, thank you! -- Alan W 00:12, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind comments and also for the correction of my error. This is my first experience contributing to Wikipedia so I very much appreciate your help. I am a wine professional and would prefer not to have my comments linked to my company, hence the lone-ranger-esque mask. Anonymity gives me more editorial freedom, if you will. Thanks for understanding. Hi-oh Silver, away! 5 Jan 2005

Although saying that no wine is made in Iran, around the Shiraz area. Iran with its hot dry summers and cool valleys is perfect wine country, although for the problem of the Islamic Regime is classed as an illegal activity, although many sources say they are still producing some form of Shiraz (local name) wine in Iran.

[edit] Noble grape varieties

Why is it mentione as a noble grape? I would take away but I feel like i'm missing something ... If the text means something else I think it should be rewritten? Stefan 14:17, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

News Flash: The latest poll of the Wine Spectator (12 months ending 18 Septmember 2005) shows 365 reviews of Syrah wines and 216 reviews of Shiraz wines. Also, regarding "noble" grape varieties, some varieties (e.g. chardonnay, reisling, cabernet sauvignon, syrah/shraz, et al.) are considered "noble" in that they are capable of producing wines of exceptional character and ageability, while some others, (e.g. chenin blanc, thompson) produce often charming but ultimately insubstantial wines. See, for one reference, http://web.ukonline.co.uk/suttonelms/noble.html I am not aware of any definitive list of noble grapes, since one can point to exceptional wines made from any of a vast number of varieties (e.g. tempranillo, sangiovese, nebbiolo, merlot, viognier, semillon, ad infinitum). --144.132.193.97 13:16, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

For definition of Noble grape I would suggest looking at noble_grapes in wikipedia, first change there then change here. I think Noble graps is a too old definition to bother about, but wikipedia should at least be consistent IMHO, but if you want to change back to make shiraz noble, be bold :-), I took it away to make wikipedia consistant (and I think more correct). Stefan 05:17, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article Naming (again)

Just looking through the grapes listed on the Wine Project, this is the only one that's in the format XXXXX grape. I understand that it's due to the other things named Shiraz, but I'm not a big fan of the way that the article is currently named. To me, at least, it looks like that title suggests that it's referred to as the "Shiraz grape." One of my goals is to try and make this article a good article, and I do think that having a simpler name would help.

Would it be possible to rename the article to be more inline with the other wine grapes? Ideally I'd like to see it as Shiraz/Syrah (or the opposite), but since it looks like that violates WP:NAME I don't think that will work. The other options I see is either go with Syrah, since that's a name that doesn't have any naming conflicts, or Shiraz (grape), which is more in line with how other topics disambiguate.

I'm personally not sure which one is better. The books that I have that are written by an author from the U.S. or the U.K., Syrah seems to be the primary name. The Australian authors favor Shiraz. Syrah has the advantage of not needing any additional disambiguation, so at this point I'd lean towards that.

I'm not formally proposing a move, I'd just like to know what the (current) editors feel.

(And just for bias reasons, I am an American, but I do call the wine that I make a Shiraz) --- The Bethling(Talk) 05:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This entry should be listed under Syrah with a cross reference from Shiraz. Every wine book I've read (Robinson, Oz Clark, et al.) uses the name Sryah and states that Shiraz is the Australian name for the grape. Babaluma 07:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Synonym listing

I noticed that a list of synonyms were just added to the introduction. Is this really necessary (at least in the intro)? Most of these are not particularly common, especially in English Usage. --- The Bethling(Talk) 03:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the intro is probably not the best spot for them. :/ Admittedly, I kinda haphazardly dropped them in there while I was in a editting disagreement with another user on my talk page over a redirect on the Sirac disambig. I agree that all them are not immensely common but I do think there is some value in having mention of synonyms somewhere in the article. But there is probably a better spot then the lead. Agne 03:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay :) I'll think about maybe finding a better place for the information. --- The Bethling(Talk) 03:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

I'd like to put in a move request for the article name because the current name is out of sync with other wine grape related articles. Between Syrah and Shiraz I will note that the Shiraz grape article was created in Feb 2002 and Syrah was created as a redirect to Shiraz grape in Sept 2002. Between those two, I have no preference but if consensus emerges for Syrah to be the article name then I would support it. The other option would be to have normal disambiguation as Shiraz (grape). A dark house candidate is the Syrah/Shiraz which doesn't seem to sync well with naming conventions either. So lets opinion up a discussion on the different names. In fairness I will invite both the French & Australian Wikiprojects to the discussion since this is obviously a regional spelling issue. But hopefully this is one we can come with an amicable consensus on. Agne 22:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Potential article title

  • Syrah - currently a redirect. Requires no additional disambiguation.
    • Support - Though not too strongly. I do like the fact that this name require no additional disambiguation, and a disagree with Stevage's comment that Shiraz is clearly more common. Just looking at the wine books I own, nearly all of them refer to the grape as Syrah, and then specify Shiraz as an Australian/South African name. It's been my experience that at least here in the US, wine makers who make a wine they label as a Shiraz (myself included) refer to the grape itself as Syrah. I'd be happy with Shiraz (grape) as well - if it wasn't for eliminating the disambiguation, my support would be there just to maintain the original name of the article. --- The Bethling(Talk) 19:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Support - Shriraz is perhaps more common when it comes to Australian wines, but Syrah definately has more world-wide usage. A quick look in the index of Janice Robinson's Wine Atlas (5th Ed.) shows two countries/regions with references to Shiraz and 15 for Syrah. Other reference books will commonly redirect those looking for information on Shiraz to the references for Syrah. Problems with grape synonyms will be a large problem when attempting to work on grape varietal articles.Dancingredshoes 21:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Support - I think it's largely irrelevant what gets "favored" on wikipedia although I like calling it Syrah since that's what we call it where I live. I think use of shiraz has boomed because of the sheer volume of Australian wines in stores, and I have seen wines from my region (Languedoc Roussillon) sold as Shiraz in the US, but that's not the name on the French customs paperwork that those vineyards fill out. Shiraz is not included in French legal terminology in any texts I've seen. mroconnell 16:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Shiraz (grape) - requires disambiguation with Iranian city Shiraz.
    • Support - I'm Australian and have lived in France, so do I get to vote twice? This seems to be the best option - Shiraz is clearly the more common name in English, so it's what we go with. And the standard disambig context in brackets. "Syrah" is my #2 choice. The other options are bad. Stevage 09:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Support as a British Australian I have to support this option! --Steve (Slf67) talk 08:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Syrah/Shiraz
  • Status quo Keep the article titled as is
    • Support leaving as is. I'm satisfied that "Shiraz" is the common name and, as Rmhermen points out below, there is a current naming convention that ought to be followed.--cj | talk 02:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update

I was bold and went with the Shiraz (grape) move. Once the other grapes that Rmherman mentioned where formatted to consistency, there was no reason not to format this the same. AgneCheese/Wine 07:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

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