Talk:Shinigami (Bleach)

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Good article A Wikipedian removed Shinigami (Bleach) from the good article list after consensus was reached to do so. There are suggestions below for improving areas to satisfy the good article criteria. Once the objections are addressed, renominate the article as a good article. If you disagree with the objections, you can seek a review.
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Contents

[edit] Appearance

Does anyone else think that the 'appearance' modification part of this article is pointless and superfluous? I think it's enough that modifications appear in individual character pages already. But if no one objects, I'll probably remove the section and instead make a 'uniforms and insignia' section, which will have information about uniform modification (but not other appearance traits). -- Ynhockey 06:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

  • Agreed, Ynhockey. Although I don't see the point in having a 'uniforms & insignia page.' As long as the appearance modifications are noted on the character pages, I don't think we need to create something new. -- yueni 19:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The uniforms and insignia would be for uniforms and insignia :) it would describe what Gotei 13 soldiers wear basically. The mods would just be a side note. -- Ynhockey 22:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hohō

This art was listed earlier as foot combat, but the most recent fansubs have it (Aizen mentions it in passing in ep 62) translated as "step techniques". That would possibly be a disparity in translation, except that the video accompanying shows a character performing shunpo (flash stepping) and the inference is that hohō is a greater scheme that shunpo is only a portion of. If that's the case, we probably should mention it. Anyone have any further information regarding that?--Mitsukai 22:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought shunpo was a demon arts technique. It's pretty confusing at this point. But if anyone has evidence to support your theory then by all means; it sounds logical. -- Ynhockey 13:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italics

It seems, on casual inspection, that this article, as well as the main Bleach article, have very inconsistent use of italics as respect to romaji romanization. The word shinigami is one perfect example, as well as Onmitsukidō. I certainly don't have time to fix these inconsistencies, but future edits should be aware of them. Italics should be used for any non-English word (though this may be a relatively large number). fruitofwisdom 05:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

We (the editors who frequently edit Bleach articles) agreed to use some terminology as if it were English, owing to the fact that no one would understand the English terminology if it were used. A prime example is shinigami. Therefore, it should not be italicized. Some terms however, which are written in rōmaji on a one-time basis, like onmitsukidō, will be italicized. If you find an instance where they're not, please change. Not on terms that are never written in English though (e.g. shinigami). -- Ynhockey 13:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the one-time italics decision and the use of romanized words. Especially where translation is difficult or questionable, or where the romanized Japanese is used with similar frequency to any translation, I think this is the best alternative. I would, however, like to suggest that all words that fall into this italics rule be given their own individual articles if at all possible. Decentralizing the topic somewhat would help with the in-universe perspective issue, as well as making individual concepts presented in Japanese more accessible to readers who aren't as familiar with the language or the details of the series. -- Yakaji 10:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sleeves

I think the older captains have the white coats with sleeves and the newer ones don't. They probably changed between 200 to 150 years ago. Kurotsuchi probably inherited Kisuke's coat 200 years ago, so Kurotsuchi has sleeves, but when Byakuya becomes captain he does not have sleeves. Hitsugaya, the youngest, does not have sleeves and Ukitake, much older, does. Soi Fong became a captain after Kisuke left, and her white coat has no sleeves. Kenpachi probably ripped (he might have cut off the arms) the sleeves off the former 11th captain's coat.

That is possible, but we don't have proof. Maybe there is mention in the databook though, haven't read it all. If you can provide a source, the information can be included. Also, please sign your name. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gin pic

I think the picture of Gin that's being used to show the captain's robes should be changed. He's missing a sleeve because of the fight with Hitsugaya and he's still got the ice on his arm. I'll scout around for a better one. -- Cwesk 20:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's not perfect, but I have a hard time finding one where the shinigami uniform is clearly visible from behind, with the number and all (and where hair doesn't harm the picture). Maybe I didn't look hard enough though. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Well... I have a few choices, though each is faulty in its own way. There's a picture with Byakuya, full body from behind, but his hair obscures the collar, and a picture of Aizen, but the lower half of his legs are cut off. This one of Kenpachi has the same problem as Aizen's. There's a shot of Komamura that has everything, but isn't exactly high-quality. It also obscures the collar with his helmet and such. Soi Fong is a posibility, but it's even worse than Komamura in quality. Ah, well, that's all I have so far, I'll update if I can find anything better.Mekryd 14:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I found one from the manga of Aizen and Gin that would probably work well. I don't have any editing programs on this computer at the moment, so it'd be good if someone else could crop it. I dunno if it'd be better to keep it with both Aizen and Gin, or just Gin. I'm just linking it to Imageshack, so here: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7895/170016jx.jpg -- Cwesk 17:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
That image is good, but I'm not sure it would qualify as fair use. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Not qualify as fair use? How so? It's a solid image to me. --Chemicalist 22:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It's taken directly (including size) from the manga. I think fair use only allows promotional pics as long as they are not high-quality. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 23:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not very hard to edit and size it down: http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/3113/ginback1sz.jpg --ACDragonMaster 04:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers?

Shouldn't this page have a spoiler warning if the list of captains and lieutenants is going to list that trio as "former"? Or alternatively, why not just omit that and leave such spoilery info to the characters' individual pages? --ACDragonMaster 17:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The article already has a spoiler warning. There is also a lot of info there which is much more 'spoilery' (i.e. from newer manga chapters) than the ending of the Soul Society arc. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article nominee

I've nominated this article in WP:GAN. I think one the most well-written and comprehensive Bleach-related articles, and has a sufficient amount of illustrations and sources. If anyone decides to reject this as a good article, please state the reasons here so that the frequent Bleach article editors may fix the article and re-nom it sometime in the future. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Evaluation of Shinigami

This evaluation was done on this version of Shinigami (Bleach) at 23:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC). The evaluation was done by the book.

Criteria:

Well-written
For the most part, the prose is alright. It's not the clearest reading, and the formatting does not help much, but the concepts are laid out well and are easy to understand as presented. My biggest grammar nitpick is that "enclave" should be "conclave," from context. Also, you could definitely stand to experiment a bit with templates like {{nihongo}}. On top of that, is it really such a good idea to start the article with a {{spoiler}} tag, especially considering that it does not terminate? You should definitely rethink some of the things that you've done here.
Factually accurate
Well, it all looks accurate to me. Most of this stuff can be complicated — good work on keeping the article simple and yet honest.
Broad
Eh, this is fairly broad, but probably not comprehensive.
Neutrally written
Actually, this is some of the driest prose I've found on Wikipedia. Nice work. Not too fun to read, though...
Stable
Going back 15 versions, there has been one revert and no vandalism. Most of the edits have been changing "BLEACH" to "Bleach" in accordance with style, and also a bit of wikification. Nothing major, except the addition of the {{spoiler}} template.
Well-referenced
Yep.
Images
The page contains five images. The tags on Image:Gotei13.png and Image:Chamber46.png should probably be {{seal}}, not {{coatofarms}}; however, the current tag is acceptable under policy. (Actually, the images in question may not be heraldic at all, since they represent fictional entities. If this is the case, then they may be taggable with a different fair use tag, provided that they are in fact considered to be under copyright.) The other three images are protected by fair use.

Summary:

  • Well-written: Fail
  • Factually accurate: Pass
  • Broad: Pass
  • Neutrally written: Pass
  • Stable: Pass
  • Well-referenced: Pass
  • Images: Pass

Congratulations — you are now a Good Article. - Corbin Be excellent 23:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for evaluating the article. Actually enclave is correct (sejoutoukyorin is like a separate entity within another, it's not just a metting room but a whole city of sorts), and I've made the other fixes (not sure what you meant regarding templates though). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
No problem. I was not aware of the exclave status of the inner chamber; clearly fansubbers do not know how to properly express that concept in subtitles, or perhaps I missed it out of carelessness. Anyway, the only thing about templates that confused me is that {{spoiler}} usually is terminated with {{endspoiler}}. - Corbin Be excellent 16:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The difficulty with the Spoiler tags is that the content that could be considered spoilers is scattered in varying degrees throughout the entire article. There are numberous mild spoilers, in the fact that while the information doesn't necessarily have to do much with the plot, it isn't revealed or stated until late in the story, and there are several rather significant spoilers as well. I'm really not sure there's much that can be done about that. --ACDragonMaster 21:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Squad Specialties?

Should we talk about each squads tendencies or assigned reasonability?

Like Squad 11 are war-like battle lovers, while squad 4 is a bunch of healing and recovery specialists, and squad 10 seems to be responsible for information gathering and relay.

Other than Divisions 4 and 11, we have no official information about specialities and should not speculate. Also I think you may be confusing divisions/companies with squads - squads are small units, usually up to a dozen soldiers, led by a junior officer. For example, Hanatarō Yamada commands a squad. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
You're right, I'm thinking Squads not divisions. But I thought that more information was released through manga. I thought that they said that Hitsugaya was incharge of information gathering?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that I heard Soifon mentioning in both the anime and the manga that the 2nd Division was in charge of special ops and espionage. Can anyone confirm this?--StevenFurtado 00:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
No, this is speculation. Most Bleach fans associate Soifon's role in the special forces (onmitsukidō), which is indeed in charge of espionage, with her role as the captain of the 2nd Division. However, there is no proof that the 2nd Division has anything to do with the special forces; so far we only know for sure that Soifon is both the general of the special forces and the captain of the 2nd Division. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 07:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and subject content. Currently it would not pass criteria 2b.
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 04:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning. We'll do something about it... --tjstrf 05:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunently, Inline citations probably won't be what gets this article, a WP:GA/R disputes entry has been open on this article, and currently its 4 to 0 in favor of delisting, primarily because the article is much too "in-universe", violating WP:FICTION. It's almost been a week, but anyone is free to chime in, otherwise, the dispute will probably be closed and the article will be delisted soon. Homestarmy 02:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Well... I'm not sure exactly how we're supposed to fix that. I suppose the biggest problem is that, with the anime only on episode 3 or so, most of the sources we could cite have been in Japanese or the unreliable bloggish types. --tjstrf 03:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The exact guideline is here: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) Homestarmy 21:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shinigami impersonations in real life

This is the only kind of section I can think of that would be out-of-universe, and we should write it to preserve this as a good article. There should be information about shinigami-related cosplaying and merchandising, at least, but feel free to come up with more ideas. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mission aids?

Shouldn't the Cell Phone be included here?

Do all Shinigami us the cell phones or is it just Rukia? (Duane543 04:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

Where is the Hell Moth (butterfly)? I doesn't it help the Shinigami travel from Soul society to the real world and also acts as an massager. (Duane543 04:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC))

Yes the hell moth should probably be included. Feel free to do so. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delisted Good Article Nomination

Heres what killed the GA for this article:

  • Violation of Criteria 1a. The lead seems to me more in tune to say, Otaku rather than a non-anime watching person. Plus, the lead is too small, and doesn't involve a basic synopsis of the page itself. I suggest a complete rewrite to at least give the lead some meat and also try and get it abit more general than fancruft.
  • Violation of Criteria 1d. I still feel that some of the technical terms should be abit more in depth.
  • Violation of Criteria 2a-d. Many Anime articles get killed right here, because they fail to properly use references or don't have enough of them to make it seem that it doesn't look like fancruft a/or original research. This is what's killing other anime articles from becoming GA nods, like Cowboy Bebop. A collaboration failed to get many reference marks into CB, and when I suggested in the nomination that i'd try and find my Tokyopop CB guides, another editor lambasted me for even using them as sources. Tokyopop's guides are at least better than fansites, because Tokyopop has to stake their reputation on publishing those guides, and if they get something wrong, it could cost them sales.

Those are the sticking points. Discuss. --293.xx.xxx.xx 09:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC) Those are the main sticking points for me.

You just mean a rewrite of the lead, correct? At first I read that as rewriting the whole article. I can't really imagine that there's much to discuss, though. You told us what's wrong and now we go fix it!--Anaraug 10:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
For the lead -- it is too small, but making it meatier seems to be making it more otaku, as well. Would it be appropriate to have the lead start out with a general description of the actual concept of shinigami from Japanese culture, and then explain how shinigami in bleach fill this role by yada yada yada?--Anaraug 11:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Your choice, i'm just saying the lead is way too small for it's own good. Best suggestion I could give is maybe take a look at some GA real life organizations and take cues from them.

Also, i'm abit concerned about the verifiability of some material in Combat and Operations and mission aids; they may need more reference marks. --293.xx.xxx.xx 21:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Since this is the ENGLISH Wikipedia, shouldn't we change the name of this page? -Unknownwarrior33 02:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

No. --tjstrf talk 02:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for that outstanding contribution. I'm looking for a serious discussion, not responses that are a step away from vandalism. -Unknownwarrior33 02:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome. We already decided this some time ago on the main Talk:Bleach (manga) pages and it would need to be discussed there if you believe we should reconsider it. --tjstrf talk 03:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the obligatory Google testing just to get it over with: "soul reaper" Bleach vs. Shinigami Bleach. --tjstrf talk 03:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Shinigami it's a keyword. It shouldn't be translated in english, so as we don't translate Zanpakuto or Hueco Mundo. They aren't foreign words, they are just keywords. And should be accepted as they are. Lord Air 05:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
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