Talk:Shetland

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Does anyone have a smaller map of the Shetland Islands? I'm afraid it's way too big. --webkid 23:19, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 New map underway 2 Sold or pawned by Norway? 2.1 Reclaim attempts by Denmark? Documentation needed. 3 Name 4 New map - comments please 5 Gaelic 6 Population? 7 Shetlopedia.com 8 CFD 9 Independent Orkney and Shetland wiki site 10 Requested move 10.1 Survey 10.2 Discussion 11 Location of Shetland 12 My External LInk was taken away 13 walter scott`s THE PIRATE is not named in the article 14 Island Template 15 Shetland on Norwegian Wikipedia 16 Midnight sun 17 Language 18 Coat of arms has been deleted 19 Nearest railway station to Lerwick 20 Gaelic name for the islands

[edit] New map underway

I'm in the process of drawing a detailed new map of the islands. I can add lots of villages, but finding room for the text labels for each village can be difficult (and can make the map ugly and useless at smaller sizes). So, I intend to add about 10 to 15 villages. Other than Lerwick, which villages are the most notable (and so worthy of mention). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:04, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's a list of villages in the Shetland Mainland article which could be useful. The Yell and Unst articles also list the islands' main settlemets. I'd also add Symbister on Whalsay.

[edit] Sold or pawned by Norway?

As I understand it, Norway regarded the islands as having been pawned and has on occasion talked of unpawning it (although it is no longer a realistic possibility). But does anyone have any evidence either way? Warofdreams 12:05, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I read something about the islands being annexed as a a replacement for a Dowry owed to Scotland by the Norse king at the time, because of some... marriage, obviously. Whether this is even remotely true, I don't know. But it that case it is not accurate to say they were pawned. 128.175.205.36 01:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

James III of Scotland married Princess Margaret of Denmark-Norway, but the latter country was unable to provide a proper dowry for her. The result was that James was given control of the islands as a guarantee that her dowry would be paid (according to the Norwegian Wikipedia, the amount promised was 8,000 guilders/gulden). The dowry was never paid, and James annexed the islands to his crown. In Denmark and Norway, the islands are sometimes referred to as simply "pawned", and is seems pretty certain that it was never the Danish intent to surrender the islands permanently. Valentinian ^(talk) 13:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reclaim attempts by Denmark? Documentation needed.

"Subsequent attempts by Denmark to make good on the debt and reclaim Shetland have been ignored, including the last bid in the early years of the twentieth century"

I allowed myself to delete the phrase 'by Denmark' , rendering the rest more neutral. A citation on this very interesting point would be nice. Whereas it is well-known in Denmark and Norway that the islands were pawned, I never heard of any official considerations to redeem the pawn. Sometimes ordinary citizens would talk about the matter in a nostalgic or witty tone, however. I recall a feature in the Danish TV news around 1990 about people in the Orkneys learning Norwegian and - maybe - wanting to get back to Denmark or Norway. I think they also said they had contacted the Danish queen on the matter. Which, by the way, would mean the initiative came from them. I doubt Margrethe II could promise any efforts to reclaim them, even if she wanted to. --213.237.69.51 04:47, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name

The people I know on Shetland say that that (ie Shetland) is the proper appellation, and that the "Shetland Islands" is less correct (maybe on the inheritance of Hjaltland): they distinguish clearly between "Shetland" and the "Orkney Islands". Should not the entry here therefore be entitled "Shetland"? Mark O'Sullivan 21:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

...also engendering a capitalisation inconsistency; we have the "Orkney islands" but the "Shetland Islands". Probably this should be "Shetland" or "Shetland islands", but shouldn't the latter at least be a redirect? Blahedo 07:39, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Shetland and Shetland Islands are both accepted but local inhabitants absolutely abhor 'the Shetlands'.

Likewise, the Orkneys should be avoided.

Puffinbillyunst 18:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New map - comments please

I'm not done with my new map, but I think all that's needed is to add towns. Here's a test version - I'd welcome comments and corrections before I go any further. Thanks. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:11, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

It looks great and could be adapted for use in all the articles on individual islands. My only suggestion would be making it clear that Muckle Roe is a separate island from the Mainland. Warofdreams 13:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, the islandness of Muckle Roe wasn't entirely clear from my reference map, so I'll do that (I've been avoiding it, as it's a bit of a pain to do). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 14:36, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

Excellent map! though some of the names are a bit hard to read. Suggest settlements should include as minimum Lerwick, Sumburgh Airport and Sullom Voe Oil Terminal, and also Scalloway as historic capital. Mark O'Sullivan 14:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

It you can't read the labels then you probably need to zoom in further (the original image is nearly 2000 pixels wide, although your browser and mediawiki may scale it down, depending on their configurations). Mapmaking for screens always has this problem - compared with paper, the resolution is so poor that you either have to have a few (giant) labels, or make the image giant. For future-proofing (and if anyone actually wants to print the image out) I erred on the side of making the image giant. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 14:36, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

The new map is (I think) done. It has the same name as before (you may need to refresh your cached version, as it's now on commons). I also propose to replace all the individual island maps with simplified versions based on it. Three possible versions are shown to the right (I think option one, the simplest, is probably best). Does anyone have any comments before I do this? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:13, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

re individual island maps: First, I should point out that I know almost nothing about Shetland (which perhaps is a useful qualification here). I like all three (simple = good in my book), but the first one is, for me, a bit too minimalist. The third is a bit too "busy" for me. The second feels about right. ("Goldilocks" could be my middle name :-).) Actually, I wonder if you shouldn't just not label the various stretches of water, but instead label the two places that outsiders like me have heard of — Lerwick and the Sullom Voe oil terminal, names to "hook" into. --Finbarr Saunders 22:08, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Great work! My preference would be for the first - I like simple! - but any of the three would be a big improvement on the maps I knocked up when I was originally creating articles on many of the islands. Warofdreams 14:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Gaelic

I disambiguated Gaelic to go to Scottish Gaelic language instead of the disambiguation page. Is that right? --Finbarr Saunders 08:26, 26 August 2005 (UTC) I forgot that - thanks! Mark O'Sullivan 14:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Population?

Population of Shetland is approximately 23,000 people.

[edit] Shetlopedia.com

The new Shetlopedia can be used for Shetland Specific articles, text, images, maps, etc.

It's a new website and it needs your input.

http://www.shetlopedia.com

Is there any benifit on having a completly seperate portal?

Why not just keep everything focused in the same place?

To be honest I don't see why there should be a seperate shetlopedia?! Wikipedia is the definitive resource on 'everything' and people would do well to keep it all within it's confines and structure. Why go off and break from this already massive and successful project?

• A separate site may be wise, given the minutiae apparently contained on Shetlopedia's site. I suspect identical Wikipedia entries would be quickly AfD'd with questions over their notability -James Francis 62.56.124.229 17:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

• Shetlopedia.com released a statement yesterday which explains "Wikipedia is an excellent general information resource, but by its own rules it is a general resource and contributors are urged not to put ‘trivial’ information into Wikipedia as it would become less useful to the casual user. Shetlopedia.com is different: by specializing on one topic – Shetland – I hope that this can become a centralized resource where all contributors’ knowledge of Shetland is equally valid.". The full press release can be read here.

[edit] CFD

--Mais oui! 09:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Independent Orkney and Shetland wiki site

User:Mallimak and I held a meeting in Stromness this weekend with a number of interested parties and a group of visiting colleagues from Shetland.

We are all shocked at the way Orkney contributors and contributions have been treated on Wikipedia. It is clear to us that Wikipedia has less to do with encyclopaedic articles and more to do with information control.

There is currently a group of “Wikipedians” dedicated to editing Orkney articles to suit their own agenda and attacking anybody who tries to resist them. None of us can compete with those with the time and inclination to make literally a hundred or more edits each day. We would be willing to contribute scholarly articles and to allow them to be edited (if necessary) and added to by responsible editors – but that is not how things are happening on Wikipedia.

We have resolved to get our own independent wiki site up and running exclusively for encyclopaedic articles on Orkney and Shetland. We shall be approaching local internet service providers and website developers to help us set this up.

If you are interested in contributing to this project please leave a message on the Category talk:Orcadian Wikipedians page. (The Orcadian Wikipedians’ Noticeboard was demolished!)

Locally, we shall advertise in the press in due course.

Orkadian 00:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location of Shetland

Look at any map and the Shetland Islands are clearly located between the Orkney Islands and Norway. The Faroe Islands are to the NW of Orkney whilst Shetland is to the NE of Orkney. So unless the meaning of "between" has altered recently, there is no way that Shetland can lie between Orkney and the Faroe Islands. 81.156.57.128 21:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right, see [1]. Please do not edit war but try to seek a decent compromise. --Guinnog 23:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My External LInk was taken away

I think my external link for Reflections of Shetland - DVD was taken away because it was thought to be an advert - I am not really sure.

My question is then why are other external links allowed that advertise their wares - eg ShetlandFood, Taste Shetland, Island Trails, etc

They are selling a product, so why can't I put my DVD link on the website.

My DVD's show evocative still imagery and magical short films accompanied by dialect poetry and traditional Shetland fiddle music. On my website there is an example of the photos (a slide show for each film), a sample of the beautiful Shetland fiddle music. I am selling images of Shetland that show the real Shetland.

Good point, I have removed some other, more blatantly commerecial, links. It seems to me that the ones I have left have some useful content but others may disagree. Abtract 14:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

So does that mean, I can put my link back? It is showing Shetland, in all its beauty along with the most amazing traditional fiddle music. Thanks. Frances

I fear not as it is overtly commercial and IMHO adds nothing to the article. I agree with Wangi who removed it. Abtract 14:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] walter scott`s THE PIRATE is not named in the article

hi there... i am spanish and i cannot believe that great walter scott novel THE PIRATE does not appear in the article... i would never ever heard about shetland islands if not for sir walter... and as i, a lot of people.

[edit] Island Template

I have created a Template:Infobox Scottish island for use with Scottish islands which is based on the existing Template:Infobox Scotland place but which contains parameters which may be more useful for smaller islands which don't have their own police force or Lord Lieutenant. Comments are welcome on the associated talk page.

I have created it as a template for all Scottish islands and used an image of a longboat next to the Saltire to emphasise the difference with the Scotland place Template. The said image is called Image:McdonaldBoat.jpg. Before ancient foes of Clan Donald complain, I am assured by User:Calgacus that the proper name for this image is a 'Lymphad' and that its was actually purloined from the Russian wikipedia. He also points out that the same image appears for example at the bottom of Image:Norse-Gael_Warrior.PNG[2] and the Sinclair Orkney arms [3] [4] which suggests to me that the lymphad may be appropriate for all our isles whether they have a primarily Celtic or primarily Norse history. This note has been copied in various places including Talk:Orkney Talk:Shetland Talk:Hebrides Talk:Islands of the Clyde etc.

An example of the template may be found at:Flannan Isles

There is space for references. Groupings and population information are available at List of islands of Scotland the latter being based on the 2001 census. Area measurements for the 162 islands of 100 acres or more in size are available in Haswell-Smith, Hamish. (2004) The Scottish Islands. Edinburgh. Canongate. I'd be happy to pass the relevant numbers on if needed, although I doubt I am going to get around to listing all 162. There is more on this subject at Template talk:Infobox Scottish island. Ben MacDui (Talk) 10:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shetland on Norwegian Wikipedia

I just had a look at the Norwegian language pages for Shetland and it seems a lot more interesting and encyclopedic than the English language one! See:Shetland on Norwegian Wikipedia - particularly on early history etc. Can anyone who speaks Norwegian do some translation and integrate some of it into the English version? Tony Corsini 10:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have translated most of it now. It needs a thorough check for typos and spelling errors. Inge 17:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Midnight sun

I have removed the following: Indeed, when standing at the highest point in the Isles, Ronas Hill (height 450m latitude 60° 32' 04"), the sun does not set at mid summer. In midwinter, by contrast, the sun does not fully rise. For the sun to be still visible at midnight you need to be in the Arctic Circle (66N), therfore this cannot be possible. --JBellis 19:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Good spelling edits but I have replaced the "Indeed ... " bit since it may be correct (effect of altitude) and a citation may demonstrate that. Bear in mind that what we know "... cannot be possible" is immaterial; what counts is previously published opinions and 'facts'. :)Abtract 23:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I live at about 61° 56′ and there are some high mountains in the area, one of which is 860 meters above sea level. There are no claims of my home town being part of the midnight sun area. I have not heard of anyone seeing the sun at midnight from any of the mountains. That doesn't mean it isn't so. I haven't heard of everything and maybe noone has bothered to climb the mountain in the middle of the night. But unless someone is willing to state here that they have seen some of the disk of the sun (not just light or glow) at midnight on this mountain (or give good source to the affect) I will remain highly sceptical. It isn't the worst thing to get wrong so I won't push too hard for its removal, but it is dubious and might be better of here on the discussion page until it is verified.Inge 13:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Inge above. According to an occasionally reliable source there is no mention of the midnight sun being visible in Scotland and I am not aware of any reliable source stating that it is. I will remove the sentence. Ben MacDui (Talk) 15:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course I agree too but if we took everything out of the article that we were not aware of a reliable source for there wouldn't be much left ... what we believe to be true is immaterial, its what can be veryfied that counts. I am going to put it back in and please leave it there for a week giving the original author time to cite a reference and then we will remove it. Just give it a chance. :)Abtract 17:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Well to be candid I think everything that is not sourced should be taken out, and as I believe JBellis pointed out to me not so long ago, it is rather difficult to prove a negative. However, by all means give it a week. Ben MacDui (Talk) 21:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Just out of interest this [5] shows Shetland (I think) well outside the artic circle (which of course we knew) but it's a cool site so I thought you may like to see it. Abtract 23:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This really has got to go unless someone would like to rewrite the midnight sun. Inferring that Shetland is in the arctic circle is the kind of poor quality that can give Wikipedia a bad name. This is supposed to be a Top-importance article. As for the tricky proving of a negative, the book The Faroe Islands by Liv Kjørskvik Schei says there is no midnight sun in Faroe. Since Faroe is north of Shetland and has higher peaks that would seem to rule out any possibly for Shetland. --JBellis 20:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Language

I have added a translation to modern Norwegian and the official english version of the Lord's Prayer to the Shetland Norn example. I am not claiming to know Shetland Norn or to be an expert on Norse. However I have studied Norse a bit and know Norwegian well. I have used the Norwegian forms closest to the words used in the Norn text. There could be a mistake or two if my assumptions are wrong, but I have mostly identified the words in the Norn text in connection to either English or Norwegian/Norse. A literal English translation should preferrably replace the official prayer.Inge 14:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Coat of arms has been deleted

Because a template has been deleted a huge amount of coats of arms images have been deleted. This includes the coat of arms of Shetland. If anyone is able to replace it, please do. Inge 14:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nearest railway station to Lerwick

• Lerwick - Bergen 193 nautical miles = 357 km [6]
• Lerwick - Thurso 133.6 miles = 215 km [7]

--Guinnog 23:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the well renowned British foreign office seems to disagree with those numbers. I wouldn'd add it if I didn't think I had a reputable source. You have a tourist page and an estate agent page. If this is wrong you should also take it upon yourself to inform the foreign office of that :) Inge 23:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I also posted this to User talk:Inge#Nearest railway station to Shetland:

Sorry, but you've been taken in by an urban myth, just as that webpage has... It is approx 220 miles from Shetland to Bergen, but it is only approx 130 miles to the railway station at Thurso (Thurso railway station) on the Scottish mainland. I'm going to revert your edit

This is the same sort of urban myth that is repeated so often that people assume it's true. It's just like RAF Machrihanish having "the longest runway in the UK" - something which was on their official site (until I pointed out the facts!) even though it's nowhere near it. Thanks/wangi 23:58, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

PS, it's simple to check for yourself using a very reliable source — a map and ruler :) /wangi 23:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Who cares? this info has no place in this article any more than would the location of the nearest llama farm or ice rink. Abtract 00:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Now, those might actually be in Bergen. --Guinnog 00:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I do monitor talk pages of articles I contribute substansially to. No need to pepper my talk page with this issue :) Could it be that the distances have not been measured from Lerwick? North tip of Unst perhaps? This belongs in the article (if true) under transportation as it describes the situation for a mean of transportation which is very important in other parts of the world. Inge 00:08, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Nope, Thurso would still be approx 50 miles closer. It's utter rubbish, it really is that simple :) /wangi 00:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

So which one of you mythbusters want to break this to the Foreign Office? Inge 00:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Not as keen anymore? Bear in mind this link from the Foreign Office is the most reputable source given so far and it clearly states that Bergen is the closest railway station. When checking my pocket atlas I too find Thurso to be slightly closer. I might also suggest that a slightly less cocky attitude from some might make the unpleasant buisness of making mistakes (in trusting the British Foreign Office) slightly less uncomfortable. Inge 00:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm only concerned with keeping Wikipedia free of error. Their mistakes are their own concern. Don't forget this is the shower that gave us the Dodgy Dossier! --Guinnog 00:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

In my most cocky attitude... I couldn't give a flying f**k what the foreign office have on their site. If they choose to get folk doing work experience in to do their website, then that's their business; if they choose not to do basic verification, well that's their business too. Ta/wangi 23:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gaelic name for the islands

Who were the Cat people? --JBellis 20:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The people who have Caithness, Shetland (in Gaelic) and Sutherland (in Gaelic) named after them. Presumably early inhabitants of most of northern Scotland. Lianachan 20:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're interested, other placename references to them in the north of Scotland include Machair Chat (the coast between Dunrobin and The Ord); Braigh Chat ("upland of the Cats", along River Shin); Dithreadh Chat ("wilderness of the Cats") in Strath Halladale and the Kyle of Sutherland is called An Caol Catach. References in titles include Catach for a man from Sutherland, the Earl of Sutherland was Morair Chat while the Duke was Diuc Chat. They are likely to have originated in Shetland or Caithness, as they only seem to have placename evidence in eastern and southern Sutherland. Lianachan 20:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)