Talk:Sheol

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Contents 1 Uberpenguin's edits 2 Ecclesiastes 3 First Paragraph 4 Sheh-ole Merge 5 Shelob 6 NIV? 7 Has mainstream Judaism believed in an afterlife? 8 Josephus & Catholicism 9 Secular outlook 10 Removal of all the Mentions of Sheol Having a Jewish Origin - Possible Deletion

[edit] Uberpenguin's edits

I originally contributed the following text:

Indeed, Sheol in many cases does not seem to be an afterlife destination or a location at all, but merely "the grave". In Ecclesiastes, for example, it is stated that "...the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten." and "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave [Sheol], where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." (Ecc. 9:5-10, NIV) This concept of death was of a final oblivion, interestingly contrasting with the idea of a soul and a consciousness that survives the body, as later writers believed.

Afterwards, I found someone tacked on a sentence at the end, an unrelated conclusion about Jehovah's Witnesses, which does not flow from the statements of the paragraph. In the spirit of NPOV, I tried to preserve this edit while moving it into its own paragraph, separate from the Hebrew interpretation above. Yet UberPenguin, probably not knowing I was the same person who wrote the original lines and probably not realising the last sentence was tacked on, cites me for NPOV reasons and re-mistakes my work (a temporary state is not the same as oblivion). It would have been better for the advocate of JW to create a new, JW-interpretation paragraph rather than altering a Hebrew one. I have separated them again with minimal editing. People with JW experience, please fill out the new paragraph, as I cannot add to that perspective.

--ToucheGnome 22:06, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm very sorry for lumping your edits in with the others and for blaming you for that badly written sentence. Many apologies! What I would like to see discussed is some clarification of the phrase "final oblivion." JWs interpret Sheol to be the common grave of mankind (and by extension the unconscious condidition of the dead, as your edits mention), from which there is the possibility (not necessarily the guarantee) of revival. The concept of "final oblivion" for JWs would more appropriately be described by the connotation of the term "Gehenna." Perhaps something to this effect should be added for additional clarification. -- uberpenguin 02:41, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

In re-reading the article as a whole, the JW view of She'ol is actually very much in line with how the article already describes it aside from the fine point I mentioned about "final oblivion." I'm not even sure that the article needs to hint at any distinction with the beliefs of the Witnesses. -- uberpenguin 02:44, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

Ah, that's where one with more experience with JW would be better to fill out that part. My understanding of JW philosophy is virtually nonexistent (I specialise in Ecclesiastes, in this area), so my edit was only attempting to preserve the apparent meaning of the person who added that sentence. Perhaps you or someone else could create a more accurate and/or detailed picture, perhaps contrasting it with Gehenna, as you mention.

--TouchGnome 04:19, 2005 May 6 (UTC)

[edit] Ecclesiastes

I think the reference "Ecclesiastes" should be comented further. By following this link I learned that the Ecclesiastes doesn't seem to be considered body of Hebrew poetry but a later greek text, therefore no wonder the similarities to Hades of greek mythology.

Do you mean Ecclesiastes or Ecclesiasticus? AnonMoos 21:03, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Paragraph

Who wrote this first paragraph, William Faulkner or Cormac McCarthy? BrianGCrawfordMA 20:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sheh-ole Merge

The article Sheh-ole discusses the alternative spelling of Sheol as used by Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries. It's not exactly clear to me from this that Sheh-ole is actually the alternate spelling vs. a pronunciation guide. However, if that can be sourced, then it should be dealt with in this article vs. a separate article. Alternate spellings do not require separate articles and any variances in meaning should be dealt with in a central place. Any other thoughts on this? -- JLaTondre 22:52, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Checking my (printed copy of Strong, Sheh-ole is clearly a pronunciation guide, not an alternative spelling. The standard transliteration is Sheol. If we're going to include a pronunciation guide then we need a proper rendering in modern phonetics, not Strong's attempt at it (which is, after all, well over 100 years old). I haven't time to do the merge myself, but it definitely needs to be done. JGF Wilks 12:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shelob

The term Shelob actually translates as 'she-spider', 'lob' being an Old English term for spider, so is it okay to remove that reference?

[edit] NIV?

The NIV should never be used as a source for the understanding of Judaism. Try citing some sort of rabbinical interpretation.

[edit] Has mainstream Judaism believed in an afterlife?

I don't understand if Sheol is a concept that most Jews believe(d) in. It was my understanding, from what I was taught in Hebrew school, that there is no Jewish afterlife. You die, your body decomposes and that's it.

At the very least, this article needs to be reconciled with Jewish eschatology#The afterlife and olam haba (the "world to come").--Mathew5000 16:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I don't get a grip on wheter there is an afterlife in Jewish belief, or if there's not. I understand that there probably are many answers, but like Mathew5000 said - this article needs to be reconciled with this one. /Chebab 14:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Josephus & Catholicism

If one refers to the discourse on Hades by the ancient Jewish historian Flavius Josephus it will point out conclusively that Sheol IS a holding place of the dead prior to their Judgement by God.

Also, there is an old Catholic saying of how Jesus, after his death, "Desended" into Sheol to retrieve the souls of the righteous and lead them into Heaven. I don't believe this is used any longer due to the negative connotation concerning Jesus entering "Hell".

[edit] Secular outlook

I changed "academic" to "secular." The idea that Sheol is the Christian Hell can be taught in an academic setting. Someone else just made the same change (academic to secular) on Purgatory. Jonathan Tweet 05:28, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone changed this section to "interpreted as not hell," which is wrong because there are also religious interpretations that make sheol out to be not hell. Jonathan Tweet 20:31, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

That was exactly my point: it is wrong to label a non-hellish interpretation as "secular". For that matter, it is consistent with secular views to say that the concept of hell pervades through the bible. BillMasen 22:28, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The article needs a "secular outlook" section so that readers can learn what the secular view is (alongside various religious views). If there is secular scholarship equating sheol to hell, add it to the section and cite it. Jonathan Tweet 23:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of all the Mentions of Sheol Having a Jewish Origin - Possible Deletion

Where this concept of 'Sheol' may exist, it has no basis, whatsoever, in Judaism. All the references to it in the Jewish Torah, Tanach, or Bible (choose your term of choice) are all incorrect. The translations for the term are based on words which are similar to 'Sheol' such as 'Sheola' (Genesis 37:35) which in Hebrew has completely different meaning. As an Orthodox Religious Jew I have never heard or read this term in all the years I've had of formal Yeshivah education - until this article. It is possible this term was invented as a joke and somehow it gained weight. This idea likely gains strength considering that the original article, in its entirety, was, "Sheol, the hebrew abode for the dead, or departed spirits. A subterranean region of darkness, from which return is impossible." In addition it only has 3 references, not to Jewish articles. Alternatively, it may be a true term, however, not Judaically. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asthenization-Creator (talk • contribs) 02:59, 12 February 2007.

This whole article is basically noncence, I don't even think christians believe this, certainly jews don't. I have a feeling it's an invention of bible critics. Ariel. 14:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Does the article say that Christians or Jews believe this? Jonathan Tweet 15:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, it does not. Which I why it should probably be deleted. It talks about the Hebrew Bible, but if not Jews, and not Christians, then who? Like I said, I think it's an invention of bible critics/scholars. Ariel. 15:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

You're right that this article gives the "Bible criticism" side of the issue, but not the Jewish or Christian sides. Instead of deleting this information, add information about the Jewish and Christian views. Then people will be able to see for themselves how far out this Bible criticism view is. Jonathan Tweet 17:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)