Talk:Shekhinah

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Shekinah and Shekina are the more popular English spellings for the female presence of Glory of God. Strange that you would pick the spelling Shekhinah to headline the article.

I suggest that you change the title of the article to Shekinah. Then give the explanation that Shekina is more the Kabbalah (or Latin Cabala) and Hebrew spelling for the Glory of God.

All the spellings of Shekinah should be capitalized like the terms for Shakti or Holy Spirit.

I tried to fix up this article a bit by adding the section on the Shekinah as an angel, and by fleshing out the references to Biblical passages. I removed the stub tag, as I feel this article is no longer a stub, but I left the clean-up tag since I think it still needs some work. Sadly, I'm not educated enough on the subject to do it ^^; --Togemon 19:25, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The Hebrew word and Jewish religious concept "shekhinah" is never pronounced without the kh. Although Wikipedia often converts an initial ch/kh to an h (as in Haredi, it doesn't alter the gutteral in intermediate syllables (as in halachah). Wikipedia standard usage for hebrew/Jewish concepts is to use modern standard Hebrew prononuciation, usually Sephardic, although Ashekenzic is used for specifically Ashkenazic people and developments. Thus the Beis Yaakov article (an Ashkenzic development) is not called "Beth Jacob" The discussion below suggests that there may be a distinct Christian concept called Shekinah involving a concept of "Glory" which may have no or only superficial/incidental relation to the Hebrew word/Jewish concept Shekhinah. There may need to be two separate articles. --Shirahadasha 04:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Clarification in this description 2 Additional content 3 Shekhinah as goddess 4 New Testament references 5 Musings on "femininity" 6 Shekhinah as an Angel section 7 Silver Streak section 8 Questionable links 9 Image titled "Shekhinah"

[edit] Clarification in this description

Creating a point of clarification in the edited information. Overall, most of this seems quite accurate. however, there IS a reference in the text to "Jehovah", and this word is NOT consistent with the Hebrew language, nor is it a word that would EVER be used in the Hebraic context. This word is the Christianized english transliteration that has it's roots in the Hebrew letters most commonly associated with the word "Yahweh". The Hebrew language has no vowls, so the word for "God" - yahweh, or YHWH in english - is as close as one can get to the original. In fact, the word "G-O-D" would never be spoken aloud, nor would the term "Yahweh". But "Jehovah" was translated from "Yahweh" at various stages, but is ONLY refered to by some in the Christian tradition. Since the word "Shekinah" - and it's various spellings - is from the Hebrew language and tradition, and refers to meanings within the Hebrew language and traditions, it seems inconsistent and perhaps even inappropriate to use the word "Jehovah" in any connection with "Shekinah".

Simply my opinion, based on 2 Master's degree's in the theological and biblical studies. :-)

But apparently, despite the degrees, you didn't spot that this passage is a quotation from Easton's Bible Dictionary. If it is to be used as a quotation it should not be altered. Of course Easton's is a Christian dictionary, and is also hardly the latest scholarship, but then again, that's why it's in the public domain. Paul B 17:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

== I added "to" in the Shekinah as Angel section - the omission was a typo.

[edit] Additional content

I added more etymological information including use of the root "SHCHN" in biblical and Mishnaic hebrew. I question the claim that this not a hebrew word, but did not erase the quotation. I will try to find a later dictionary to replace the dictionary quote. Also added more Talmudic quotes connecting the term to joy, music, creativity, and prophecy, as well as imagery used by the Prophets. The article really needs a good work-over from someone versed in kabbalistic sources and able to do them real justice, Shekhinah means far more in Kabbalah than just the "sabbath bride" currently in the article.

Also, I left the references to other religions in but put them all in one place. Not sure they are helpful, since they appear to represent very superficial comparisons that could be misleading. --Shirahadasha 19:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shekhinah as goddess

There are a lot of links to sources presenting the Shekhinah as an example of a goddess. Acknowledging the POV exists enough not to be WP:OR, it is at best a very minority position and one not adopted by any mainstream version of Judaism. Would like to prune these links if no objections. --Shirahadasha 19:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, the viewpoint that the Shekhinah is a goddess appears to be coming from New-Age oriented websites like www.wheeloftheyear.org and www.pantheon.org whose scholarly expertise on Biblical and Jewish subjects seems questionable, which appear to have a goddess/pantheon-oriented POV, and which might be considered NPOV|partisan websites. Claims need to be clearly attributed -- this POV should not be represented as coming from either the Jewish religious or the academic community without a reliable source, and political claims should not be presented as fact. --Shirahadasha 15:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Technically speaking the Shekinah is the Female Aspect of God and so not a Goddess in her own right. To properly understand what she is we have to change our idea of God as Masculine to something which contains both the Masculine and Feminine principles within it. Genesis says quite clearly that God makes Man in his image - 'Both Male and Female he created them'. The Kaballists see God as Androgynous and identify Female and Male aspects of His power (I use the word He cos Its or Their seems daft). They see the Shekinah as the Feminine Aspect which is sent among us to help us in this world, rather like Athena does in the Odyssey for Odysseus. If it helps, see the Shekinah as an Avatar of God. Whatever the case She is not separate from Him. ThePeg 09:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Testament references

Please cite sources taking the view that references to "glory" etc. are the same thing as, or have anything to do with, the hebrew word Shechinah. The typical Hebrew word used for glory -- kavod -- is a masculine noun, not a feminine one. Absent sources, a claim the two concepts are the same is original research and must be deleted as such.

Quick Google search brought up multiple instances. Two bible.org hosted articles posted as citations, and {{fact}} tag removed. Please review, and if satisfied that parallels are suitably indicated in the articles, will leave it to you to withdraw WP:OR tag on the section. J.christianson 07:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I reviewed the source and found no reference to shechinah, or to any claim that the word "glory" as used in the New Testament had any of properties (such as feminine gender) associated with that term. Absent such sourcing, any claim of parallel would be original research. The fact that the two words are sometimes translated into something similar in English is no evidence that they ever had anything to do with each other in the original. As an example of the perils of using translations to make claims that two distinct foreign concepts are the same thing, Julius Caesar, as a dictator, performed a function called dictation. But it would clearly be inappropriate to refer to the term dictation on a website describing the duties of an administrative assistant as a source for a claim that Julius Caesar answered telephones and did typing. We have a similar situation here. Like the word "dictate", the English word glory is used as a translation of terms with radically different original meanings. For example, the Hebrew word kavod -- a masculine term with radically different connotations from shechinah -- is also often translated glory. An inference of parallel is itself OR -- the sources you cited simply don't support it. --Shirahadasha 09:32, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's the disputed language pending resolution:

The New Testament presents the Shekinah as both literal (as in Luke 2:9 which refers to the "glory of the Lord" shining on the shepherds at Jesus' birth)^[1] as well as spiritual (as in John 17:22, where Jesus speaks to God of giving the "glory" that God gave to him to the people.)^[2]

--Shirahadasha 09:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Here are some specific quotes from the articles.

After introducing the Old Testament examples in a section entitled "The Biblical References To God’s Glory", the writer moves on to mention in the section "The Present Revelation of God’s Glory";

Just as surely as the radiant light that flooded the Old Testament tabernacle was the visible manifestation of God’s glory, so was Jesus Christ. He is the Shekinah glory of God because He is God in flesh, the express image of God’s person, the very impress of God’s being.

and also adds;

Christ claimed to have possessed equal glory with the Father before the worlds were formed (John 17:5). When He came to earth, those who saw His glory recognized it for what it was: “glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). His divine glory was veiled by human flesh throughout His earthly life, but on one momentous occasion that veil was pulled aside: “And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light” (Matthew 17:2). Peter, James, and John beheld the magnificent glory of the eternal that day. When Peter wrote, years later, about his thrilling experience, he said, “we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ‘This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased’” (2 Peter 1:16-17).

In reference to the shepherds the first reference says this:

“And the glory of the Lord shown around them.” “Shown around” is perilampo� from peri meaning “around” and lampo� meaning “to shine.” Thus, “to encircle, encompass with light.” They were completely encompassed in light, the light of “the glory of the Lord.” Surely this was nothing less than the shekinah, the brilliant white light of God’s glory, which represented the holiness and presence of God in the Old Testament (cf. Ex. 24:16; Isa. 6:1-3; Rom. 9:4).

In the New Testament, in addition to this passage, this light was seen at the transfiguration (Matt. 17:), by Stephen (Acts 7:55), and by Paul (Acts 22:6-11). In the Old Testament this glory appeared to Abraham (Acts 7), it appeared in the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34-35), in the temple (I Kings 8:11), and was the glory which Ezekiel saw depart from the temple (Ezek. 10:18-19; 11:22-23). For more than 500 years, Israel had been without the visible blessing of God’s presence among His people—God’s glory.

The inclusion in the article is not determined by a particular pre-conceived view of how the Shekhinah "should" be defined, but is based upon suitable source material indicating that such views are held with regard to the significance and form of manifestation of the Shekhinah. J.christianson 10:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

--Shirahadasha, your analogy to "dictation" is irrelevant because that is barely more than homophony (not, quite, but getting there). The issue here is totally different - the use of words in two different languages that are interpreted to refer to the same thing. This occurs all the time in Biblical exegesis, since the NT is in Greek and the OT/Tanach is in Hebrew, so discussion of the connection between words in the two languages has been going on since Christian exegesis began. Also your definition of "original research" is wrong. The sources state that in Christian biblical exegesis the "glory" referred to in the NT has been identified with the shekinah. That's clear. Whether it's right or wrong is irrelevant. Paul B 10:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

--Your references to "kavod" also appear to play on equivocation over the word "glory", since kavod appears to be more closely related to "glory" in the sense of honor, respect or fame ("he achieved great glory"), while the "glories" referred to in the NT passages are mostly references to radiances or feelings ("a glory shone around him"), though some are ambiguous. Paul B 12:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I see you have cited two contemporary pastors who have used the word "shekinah" in discourse about the Christian Bible. What is the source for the statement that "many" Christians hold this view? I understand you may believe it to be self-evident, but can you source it? --Shirahadasha 01:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

How many is "many"? There are literally thousands of references available. Here are just a few;

Transfiguration of Jesus Christ: AllAboutJesusChrist.org

The Shekinah Glory of Christ at His Coming: Roland Pletts, Kingdom Ministries

HolySpirit-Shekinah.org

Messianism in the Christian Kabbalah of Johann Kemper: Elliot R. Wolfson, New York University

A quote from one article says; "We have chosen to use the word "Shekinah," (shknh) , to name this "presence" since this meaning is in general distribution among many Christians"

J.christianson 05:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello, the hebrew Shekhinah simply does not mean "Glory", it comes from "settle" or "dwell", a very different concept. Note the etymology explaining the term's roots and connotations. Etomlogy is extremely important in understanding Hebrew words. From the difference between the Hebrew etymology/Jewish descriptions and the Christian ones, it appears that the Christian concept of "Shekinah" as "Glory" is simply a different notion from the Hebrew/Jewish concept of "shekhinah". Perhaps "Shekinah" and "Shekhina" should get separate articles. --Shirahadasha 03:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The concepts discussed in Judaism and Christianity regarding the Shekhinah are inter-twined. When referring to manifestation, Christians see the presence of the Spirit of the Lord, the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Christ (depending on terminology), which in the new covenant is "indwelling". For example, when reference is made to "Whenever ten are gathered for prayer, there the Shechinah rests" Talmud Sanhedrin 39a and "when three sit as judges, the Shechinah is with them." Talmud Berachot 6a, they have their counterpart in verses such as "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." Matthew 18:19-20 NASB J.christianson 05:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Musings on "femininity"

When we look at the types presented in Creation, we find an example in the sun and the moon. The greater gives light and the lesser one reflects the light. In Joseph's dream, we find that the sun is portrayed as masculine (as in Jacob) whilst the moon is thus deemed feminine.

If we apply this analogy to Israel (declared feminine, as his "bride"), we can see that through being given the covenant and submitting to Him, that they were to reflect the glory of God before the nations.

We find that the first-born Israelites were redeemed through the Levites, and God promised that his new covenant, through the Spirit, would be upon all people (Joel).

Paul talks about being grafted into the spiritual life of thew Jews, and in many regards, like Ruth, those people are brought into that relationship to become a part of his people by following the Lord, but at this time it is not by being the first-born, or being from the tribe of Levi, but by the power of His Spirit. The term "bride" continues to be applied to those who are called his people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by J.christianson (talk • contribs).

Hello, this is an encyclopedia, this Talk page is for discussion of the article's content. Please, respect your peers and Wikipedia, and don't use these pages for musings or proslytizing. --Shirahadasha 04:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The musing is over the stated "feminine" aspect mentioned in both the article, and these talk pages - in fact you yourself have sought responses as to a Christian perspective as to considerations over masculine and feminine usage. Clearly there are many examples of "femininity" being applied in Scripture to designate the order within a relationship rather than to specify gender. J.christianson 04:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shekhinah as an Angel section

Referemce to Shekhinah as an Angel is primarily to Gustav Davidson, an American poet who may not have been attempting to produce a scholarly work -- not clear that this is a reliable source that this was a mainstream opinion. Also want to make sure that the views presented as the Zohar's are the Zohar's and not Davidson's interpretation.--Shirahadasha 03:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed the following language to here for now:

According to the Zohar, She acts, like the Metatron, as God's voice or messenger and appears to Moses and Jacob, who call Her an angel. The Zohar also identifies Her as the angel to whom Jacob refers in Genesis 48:16. The Talmud's descriptions of the Shekhinah's radiance refer to it as having healing properties. An aggadah also gives the Shekinah dominion over the conjugal union of married Jewish couples.

This paragraph appears to be original research essay that takes a variety of qualities described in traditional Jewish sources to support an inference which goes beyond what these sources are willing to say directly. We need a reliable secondary source that actually makes these inferences (e.g. healing properties ===> angel) itself. See WP:No original research. The Dictionary of Angels reference is appropriate and I left in. --Shirahadasha 02:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Silver Streak section

Moved this content to Talk:

Shekinah, the symbol of Divine Presence followed Ernest Paul Mwazha in his missionary journey -27.07.85. A pillar of cloud with a silver lining stood some metres off the ground.

"The golden glow kept pace but again moved to our left and shone even more brightly". A!This was amazing; God is great indeed. The golden sheet sailed over the rock Ndarikure , the Temple and over Chivavarira and Gonawapotera the large pond on the Shashe River.... The sign came up at our front still shimmering and letting off a captivating golden haze.

^[3] The Divine Commission of Paul Mwazha of Africa, part II p 71-74

Two reasons:

• The quote provides no reason to believe what Paul Mwasha claims to have seen has anything to do with the term Shekhinah.
• This appears to have serious WP:Notability and WP:RS problems. It appears to be a self-published account, with no independent corroboration or evidence of notability. Wikipedia can't republish everyone's self-published claim to have seen the Virgin Mary, for example.

Best, --Shirahadasha 20:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable links

• Article in Encyclopedia Mythica by www.pantheon.org

Reason: Wikipedia's article on Encyclopedia Mythica indicates that it is of questionable reliability, particularly, that repeatedly represents characters as goddesses which the underlying cultures do not regard as goddesses, across a variety of cultures.

• Article about the Matronit/Maggid as an aspect of the Shekinah

Reason: This website calls itself the "Eco-Egalitarian Spirituality Source". This is not a mainstream religious or academic source. It appears to be a self-published source and does not fall in any WP:RS exception to self-published sources.

Best, --Shirahadasha 21:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image titled "Shekhinah"

I removed the following image to this page in the absence of any reliably sourced evidence connecting it to the article's topic.

Come on, folks, we're trying to build a reputable encyclopedia here. Please, no pictures of milky-white fluid of uncertain origin spilt on the camera lens. Thanks. --Shirahadasha 01:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Quite! Well put, Shirahadasha! Heaven knows what that is and if it is the Shekinah what is She doing in a barn? ThePeg 09:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)