Talk:Shalhevet Pass

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If this article is to be NPOV, it should cite sources other than the israeli government, I'm also sceptical about calling it a terrorist attack, the language has alot of "baggage". -- Tompsci 09:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It cites a US newspaper, an Israeli newspaper, a community source, a petition by supporters, and 2 Isr govt sources. Didn't think I needed to spell that out.

What would you like to call it if not a terrorist attack?

What language specifically do you object to? So fix it! - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 14:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is this article about?

I seem to find more information about Yitzchak Pass here than the actual subject of the article. May I suggest, if all this kid is notable for is dying, that the article be renamed Yitzchak Pass and the information about the attack be incorporated into that article? Fagstein 22:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The kid is way notable for dying! Her death caused an incredibly strong public reaction. The father information is strictly tangential. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 22:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Kid gets 364 unique google hits. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 22:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Not notable, should we list every person ever murdered? The prominance of this story seems to be purely of interest from a pro-Israel stance. I agree with Fagstein. -- Tompsci 16:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I have a final exam on Monday for which I am currently screwed, so I cannot spend mad time finding the many articles etc. written about Shalhevet Pass at the time. Please give me time to do so though before moving it to AfD or some such.

On the pro-Israel thing: You are correct and yet incredibly uh... (npa... npa... so hard...) offensive. Yes, this victim is primarily of interest to Israelis or people who have an interest in Israeli affairs. I.e., people in Fiji don't know/don't care about SP, just like people in the Ukraine have no interest in Natalee Holloway, for example. No, there's nothing "pro-Israel" in this article. SP is one of the most prominent casualties of that particular war, just like, say, Mohammed Al-Durra on the Palestinian side, and there's nothing partisan about that. I resent the suggestion and the suggestor. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 17:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

You're the one who asked for a third opinion on this debate. If you don't agree with it, that's your problem. Fagstein 20:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Clearly. :) - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 20:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Wait, do you also think I have a "pro-Israel stance"? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 20:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

If information on the father is tangential, it should be removed (or probably more appropriately, moved to an article on him). Fagstein 20:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Natalee Holloway is a far more indepth and useful article that "A toddler got shot" and then a bunch of stuff about the father. The sources you cite are all pro-Israel, you studied in a Yeshiva and so I assumed you were pro-Israel. And yes the US is a pro-Israel state. I am pro-Palestine, we should all be honest about our own biases. We will wait until after your exams for an AfD/Merge. Don't forget WP:NPA. It seems like you're easily riled. -- Tompsci 21:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

If you think you can judge a person's POV based on where they studied - e.g, "you studied in a Yeshiva and so I assumed you were pro-Israel" you need to take a long hard look at the way your personal bias is affecting your ability to reason. If you are ready to nominate the Mohammed Al-Durra article for AfD, we can discuss AfD for this page. Otherwise, keep your bias out of WP. Isarig 22:15, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Tompsci, that's offensive, AND ignorant too. Many products of haredi yeshivas are not terribly fond of Zionism. I am pro-Jew and pro-human. And you're a [personal attack implied]. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 23:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be unacceptable if the only reason I assumed a bias was on the basis of studying at a yeshiva, but the fact is that I made the judgement on the content of the article. I apologise for the yeshiva comment, but the rest of what I said still stands. No implied personal attack. Looking at the Mohammed Al-Durra article, it needs to cite its sources, if it does not, then AfD would be appropriate. That is however not the topic of this talk page. Respond to critisisms of this article. -- Tompsci 00:11, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

If you've looked at the Mohammed Al-Durra article, you've seen that it uses the unref template to indicate lack of source citing. If you feel this is a problem with this article, add that template here (instead of the NPOV one). I can only re-iterate to you that this is not true of this article - the claims have been sourced and cited. Isarig 14:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I placed the NPOV tag on the page becuase of both the lack of balanced external links and because of the use of the word terrorist and toddler, you've since changed these, so you must have agreed with me. -- Tompsci 18:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I also think this article should go up for deletion. While tragic, it is not terribly notable (and that's the true tragedy). The most notable aspect is that her father appears to have become a vigilante of sorts after her death (not judging- if a child of mine was killed I'd probably go completely nuts).

It is as notable as countless other WP articles that document the (sometime) tragic death of an individual, from Natalee Holloway through Iman Darweesh Al Hams. Isarig

Here is an news piece about him I don't see mentioned in the article. That said, if consensus is to keep this article, a few points:

1) Shalhevet was an infant, not a toddler.

2) I think the word "terrorist" should be replaced, probably with "sniper." Terrorism is a subjective term, and using it here decreases the level of neutrality we should be aiming for. Actually, in the first use (victim of a terrorist attack) it's not too bad, but the second use (the terrorists were intentionally targeting the baby) sounds POV. Perhaps (the snipers were intentionally targetting her) would be more neutral?

terrorism is not a subjective term, but a defined act, that some people with a POV don't like. Notice that you yourself feel the first use is accurate. I don't know what else you would term a intentional shooting of a 10-month old by a sniper.

3) I've not read anything that indicates her death caused "vocal outrage" abroad. Most Google hits on her name seem to be associated with Israel.

So? As was pointed out earlier, the death of Natalee Holloway did not make the news outside of the US. Let's not increase the skew toward US-based articles already existing in WP.

4) The ynet article above refers to her father as a member of the "Jewish Underground," an organization that ynet says carried out a series of shooting attacks, as well as "...four terror attacks, mostly near Palestinian schools..." This should somehow be included in that paragraph (reworded), as well as the info that he has already served his two years .

5) An online petition (with only 471 signatures) does not seem to be a reliable source. The link I included above would probably serve better, especially as it has more current information.

Isarig: I firmly believe that a tit-for-tat approach to nominating articles for deletion is highly inappropriate. Each article should be judged on its own merits, not by the position (or perceived bias) of other editors. Also, could everyone please calm down. I know the issues raised are close to many people's hearts, but ire and antagonism will not help us reach a consensus. Drink a cup of tea, eat a cookie, smell a flower. We're all here for the same reason: we want to make Wikipedia better. Just because we may disagree on how to do that doesn't mean we have to dislike each other. -DejahThoris 00:13, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I did not suggest the removal of the al-Durrah article as a tit-for-tat (and in fact I don't support its deletion at all, I think it is a fine article). It was a rhetorical device that I thought would help Tompsci appreciate his bias and double standards.

Appreciate my bias? I had never seen that article before and I admitted that it needed more and better sources. In what way have I had "double standards"? Remember criticise content not the person. -- Tompsci 18:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV?

I've made some change to address the points raised by DejahThoris - (toddler->Infant; terrorists->snipers). I've added an external link which provides the original AP report on the topic, as well a critique of it by CAMERA, which indicates the uproar abroad, and adds yet another non-Israeli source. The original complaint was "If this article is to be NPOV, it should cite sources other than the israeli government" - this has been addressed. Let's remove the NPOV tag - there are too many WP articles around with that tag slapped on just becuase someone doesn't like the article. Isarig 14:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the changes. Sorry to be so picky, but I'm not pleased with the Aish link either. That article (which I agree with in its criticism of the A.P., 'dies' is too mild a term) specifically states "...Shalhevet Pass was in her mother's arms when she was shot..." Every other report says she was in her stroller, which makes sense, since the bullet passed through her and struck her father in the legs (from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs). Also, the link does not link to the original AP article (It just has a picture of the AP with the first couple of lines, hence the confusion).

Also, from above:

3) I've not read anything that indicates her death caused "vocal outrage" abroad. Most Google hits on her name seem to be associated with Israel. The article currently states her murder "produced vocal outrage in Israel and abroad." I've read nothing to that effect. The Holloway article is immaterial, and I wish you would stop comparing this to other pages, as I don't want to have to go and read them (and their talk) to fully understand what your objections are.

4) The ynet article above refers to her father as a member of the "Jewish Underground," an organization that ynet says carried out a series of shooting attacks, as well as "...four terror attacks, mostly near Palestinian schools..." This should somehow be included in that paragraph (reworded), as well as the info that he has already served his two years .

5) An online petition (with only 471 signatures) does not seem to be a reliable source. The link I included above would probably serve better, especially as it has more current information.

If you have no objections, I'll go ahead and make some changes to the article. Then you can add, delete, revert, or we can just keep going back and forth.  :-)

P.S. Please just leave your reply at the bottom of the page. I have a hard time reading messages interspersed through other comments, and I'm too lazy to go find my glasses. Thanks, DejahThoris 17:14, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

You can go ahead and make the changes you refer to in (4) and (5). Regarding 3, the incident and its coverage by the media was picked up by CAMERA and Honest Reproting (which is what the AISH link quotes), both of which are US-based media watchdogs. Googling for Shalhevet Pass bring usp links from non-Israeli organzations such as the Orthodox Union of Brooklyn [2], as well as from the Arab American Institue[3], hardly a pro-Israel source, which says "The killing of the Israeli baby, Shalhevet Pass, made front-page news with photographs across the United States. It was also a multi-day story with additional pieces written about the reactions of parents and friends to the death." I think we can put this one to rest. Even if you have more issues like this, I hardly think any of them rise to the level justifying the NPOV tag. Please remove it once you're done with your edits. Isarig 22:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

After taking a break for the Lord's holy Sabbath, I can only marvel at the discussion that mushroomed. Two things I would like to say to put this matter to rest:

1. Shalhevet Pass is among the very top of Israeli intifada victims in terms of news coverage and outrage around the world.

2. The remedy for WP:V issues (not that I am saying there are such here) is not delete, it is finding sources. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 02:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

After taking a break to drink wine and play frisbee in the sun:

1) I would still like to see something verifying that she is "among the very top of Israeli intifada victims in terms of news coverage and outrage around the world." (Isarig's link the the Orthodox Union is simply a press release detailing their trip to Israel after S.P.'s death, and the Arab-American Institute is fairly POV, and was using S.P.'s coverage as compared to Iman Hijo to show that Israeli deaths are covered more extensively than Palestinian deaths. On a side note, Iman Hijo gets about nine times as many google hits as Shalhevet Pass, which is kind of at odds with the point they're trying to make. In any case, they're not exactly NPOV.)

2) I'm not suggesting this article go up for deletion because of it's lack of reliable sources. I'm suggesting it go up for deletion because of a lack of notability. -DejahThoris 19:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

So put it up, what more can I say? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 19:38, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Seems like we're done claiming this article is POV, and are now just debating its notability. I'm removing the POV tag. Isarig 00:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

No doubt about it: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Natalee_Holloway. The votes speak for themselves. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 01:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the connection. Natalee Holloway is not Israeli, was not the victim of a terrorist attack, and as far as anyone knows isn't even dead. If you can find an Israeli reporter who has made a crusade out of finding this infant's killers and/or media coverage to the extent that there are stories about the media coverage of this incident, that would be different. Fagstein 08:07, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The connection is that Holloway is an equally notable or unnotable event - a tragic story, covered by the media, but with little global or historical significance. Yet as the results of the AfD vote on the Holloway articel show, WP editors are in favor of keeping such articles. Isarig 15:09, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

But they aren't equally notable. Holloway has, for example, 100 times the number of Google hits as Shalhevet Pass. (1 million to 10,000). This isn't statistical variation. Holloway is notable because she has received significant media coverage. All we need to do for this article is point to that significant media coverage here, if it exists. Fagstein 16:39, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

So first of all, I dispute "Google hits" as a valid metric for an item's encyclopedic noteworthiness. While Holloway gets a million hits, Nobel prize winnign author Shai Agnion gets less than 100,000 even when you combine 3 different spellings of his name. Holloway could get a billion hits, and it would not make her tragic disappearance noteworthy in an encyclopedia. Second, you are comparing a recent event to one taht happened 6 yeras ago, so it is little surprise that a current google search yeilds more hits for a "current event" than for a less current one. Shalhevet Pass's murder recieved significant media coverage - as you own research shows- 10,00 hits on an English Google search, she is referenced in 4 seperate articles on the Hebrew Wiki. Isarig 23:26, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Heh... not a big proof - her name is written in Hebrew! I don't know nearly enough hebrew to search hebrew google, but I am sure she gets lots of publicity on hebrew-language sites. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 00:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Are there articles about Arab babies killed by Israeli terrorists?

Robin Hood 1212 20:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Write them! - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

well there were about 2 Israeli terrorists in history compared to the thousands of palestinians. And yes, there are articles about Arab children getting killed .

This artice about Shalevet is very important and should obviously not be deleted since it's a horrfic account of a premedidated murder of a baby, not a massacre that included babies. Amoruso 15:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not feed the trolls. - CrazyRussian talk/email 15:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)