Talk:Shakespearean authorship question

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Contents 1 Serious OR Edit 2 Previous Talk Page Archived 3 4 Article Balance 5 Literacy 6 Introduction 7 Did Plato write Plato 8 Greene Reference

[edit] Serious OR Edit

I'm interested in doing a serious OR edit. I think that this page can be informative (even exhaustive) NPOV well-sourced resource considering the length of the article - it's 20 kilobytes larger than the article for William Shakespeare!! I know I have a couple other good editors on this page - are there any objections? Rmj12345 03:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

When you say OR edit - are you referring to Original Research? What kind of edits are you contemplating? Smatprt 14:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

What specifically caught my interests was the section on "Shakespeare's class", which only has one citation. I think sections/paragraphs that are rife with "citation needed"s could be easily re-written to encapsulate the issue in a way that makes use of the significant amount of sources without using weasel words or Original Research. What do you think? Rmj12345 19:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I would love to see what you have in mind. However, a lot of the "citation needed" notations are a subtle bit of warring going on between Strats and Anti-Strats each trying to one-up each other by the over-requesting of citations. Yes, everything should be source-able, but do we need to source every single sentence? Smatprt 21:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll definitely keep that in mind and try a bit tonight. Rmj12345 23:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

While we're on the topic of length, I propose we cut the "Overview" section and merge the unique information in there to later section. This is such a length article, and while I think some kind of introduction is needed, I think we should maybe expand the introductory paragraph so that it's more in-depth. What do you think? Rmj12345 23:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I think you should run your proposed edits in this location before attempting mass edits such as your last attempt. However, to simply delete anything that has a fact citation is probably excessive. Just about every case you deleted, for example, is easily cited. Several weeks ago, a clearly stratfordian editor (vandal?) added dozens of fact tags (the ones marked February). It was clearly a POV attack with the hope that someone would then start deleting. I don't agree with that kind of tactic. So, as you did with the edit of the introduction paragraphs, I suggest you propose your edits here. Also, I suggest you deal with one section at a time. I liked your first 2 edits for example, but there was so much I din't agree with that it was easier to revert the whole thing. (And I'm not trying to be difficult - I just thought the process was better the first time)Smatprt 02:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Apologies. I'll post here first to get your opinion for now on, though with a heavy workweek coming up, I won't get much done until my spring break in a week. Rmj12345 21:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I added a number of anti-strat sources to the article - they were pretty easy to find. A bunch of the Stratfordian fact tags should be easy to source as well. But I'm all for good editing, so if you want to start at the top and work down, section by section, I'll try and keep up. But let's post them here first for a few days to get other comments. Smatprt 08:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Previous Talk Page Archived

This talk page has been archived at: Talk:Shakespearean authorship/Archive 1

[edit]

who wrote this page? Well done! Its been a fantastic resource! 58.104.147.9 09:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Balance

Having left this article for some time and only recently read it again I think it now has a fair representation of all views. I read objections to arguments for which further evidence exists to develop the original thesis (e.g. Rayleigh's execution in Macbeth, the play also appears to refer to Rayleigh's trial) but in respect of the length of the article, I am loath to include it. So, well done to those who have worked on this page. (Puzzle Master 14:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Literacy

I have a contention with the literacy section. It clearly argues that Shakespeare's wife is illiterate and then remarks as to why there is not a surviving letter directed towards her or others. This is not a valid argument and should possibly be restated or removed. Matt3737 03:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• You are right, of course. I'm just a bit worried that if we start deleting arguments from this page just because they are fatuous or self-contradictory, we will have nothing left. AndyJones 20:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Sorry, was being tongue-in-cheek. I've fixed it. AndyJones 17:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

I think that the opening to Background sounds kind of biased - like the beginning of a detective novel. What about deleting that section? I don't think there's anything that couldn't be merged into other sections. I think it states clearly in the introduction set up the background to the debate well enough, and the article is pretty extensive otherwise. Rmj12345 00:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd be okay with doing that.--Alabamaboy 14:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Can you explain why you think it seems kind of biased. To you, it may sound a bit like a detective novel, but this is a mystery we are talking aobut. Instead of deleting, whyy not try an attempt at a rewrite? Smatprt 15:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

My opinion was here, and hasn't changed. AndyJones 17:16, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

It may be a mystery to you and to some, but it shouldn't sound like a mystery in an encyclopedia. The introduction/background section should reflect the debate, not set up a mystery novel. It is 'generally' accepted that Shakespeare's plays are correctly attributed - the introduction should set up and introduce the fact that people question Shakespeare's authorship. The background section as it is currently written bases the background off the circumstantiality of the evidence surrounding Shakespeare's identity, and not off generally accepted knowledge. It is based on controversial evidence prior to the introduction of that evidence. The introduction should set up the evidence, not work off it... Because it's based off controversial evidence, it sounds argumentative.

Additionally, I agree with AndyJones, it's pretty weaselly.

I don't think it's worth re-writing because a) the article already has a good introduction, which sets up the argument in a neutral way based off what the reader is already likely to know, and b) the content of the paragraph is found elsewhere, in more appropriate sections. The controversial nature of this debate necessitates careful sequencing of the information. If the beginning of the article sounds like it's a mystery, it'll sound like it's "out to get" Shakespeare, instead of introducing the reader to valuable and balanced alternative views of Shakespeare. It shouldn't set it up like a mystery, it should set it up as a debate. Rmj12345 04:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Rmj12345 and AndyJones--leave that deleted section out. --Alabamaboy 16:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am still confused by your whole premise - can you be specific about what exactly sounds like a detective novel? I stated that the entire subject is indeed a mystery, but I disagree that the background section sounds like one, or sounds biased. I see a few background facts that everyone agrees on, and the section does establish that the writer has "long" been identified with Shakespeare of Stratford. I don't hear the detective novel. I also agree with others that a weasely subject has weasely words. We all agree the article needs more sources. I will try to add some, if you think it will help. Smatprt 06:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Also - Can you please identify the "weasel words" in the background paragraph? Thanks, Smatprt 16:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

First off, thanks for remaining civil. I see that you've done a lot to contribute to articles about Shakespeare on Wikipedia, and I don't want to step on your toes. Also, looking over the text again, it

I'll repost the text here for easier reference:

From 1593 to 1637, a number of plays and poems were published under the name 'William Shakespeare' or, in many cases, hyphenated as 'Shake-Speare'. The company that performed most of these plays, the Lord Chamberlain's Men (later called the King's Men), also included an actor of that name. This actor and playwright has long been identified with a William Shakespeare who was born in Stratford-upon-Avon in 1564.[1] I simply don't see the point of having most of this information in here. The reader should be familiar with Shakespeare's works, if they're here, and the distinction between Shakespeare of Stratford and the possible other identities of Shakespeare would be meaningless to a reader at this point, as would the distinction and importance of Shakespeare versus Shake-speare. The unfamiliar terms and the recasting of established facts give it kind of a suspicious cast to me. Additionally, all of these established facts are better explained later on in the article. The reader doesn't need to be retold who Shakespeare is, is my problem with this. It's not independently valuable as a

Around one hundred and fifty years after Shakespeare of Stratford's death in 1616, doubts began to be expressed by some scholars about the authorship of the plays and poetry attributed to him. I think this is valuable and contributes to an initial understanding of the topic, reflecting that this is a debate that has gone back a long time. While many candidates have been proposed, it is generally accepted that Shakespeare's plays are correctly attributed. Same with this.

I propose that the Background section as a separate section be taken out, and the introductory paragraph be altered to read:

The term Shakespearean authorship question refers to scholarly debates dating back to the 18th century over whether the works attributed to William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon were actually written by another writer or a group of writers, using name "William Shakespeare". While many candidates for alternative authorship have been proposed, it is generally accepted that Shakespeare's plays are correctly attributed. The terms can also refer to less contentious debates about what exactly Shakespeare wrote in the collaborative world of the Elizabethan theatre.

How does this sound? I just want to cut down on this page a little bit, it's pretty lengthy and I don't think that the background section has any independent merit, unless you think it's worthwhile to re-explain Shakespeare's publications. It's kind of like a condensation of a very complex topic rather than an introduction, and it's not really a background to the topic anyway. Not that a background is needed, because this is a specific and rather wonky topic, and those in search of general information on Shakespeare would do well to look at other Wikipedia pages on him.

Thanks! Rmj12345 00:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey - thanks for actually talking to me about this, instead of at me. I now understand where you are coming from and you make alot of sense. I think the publication references are certainly covered later, and you are right - its too much like a summary. I do think the hyphenated name should be referenced because that was the name used on like... half the published versions of his name (and I disagree with most who feel it was simply 'occasional' or just a 'spelling variance' - it seems to me very intentional and follows a pattern - but I digress...).

While we are on this, I would like to raise a couple of other issues - I have long thought that the first-time reader would also want to know who the main candidates are - it seems the most obvious question and I think a good encyclopedia article would have it. Also, the following line is troublesome to me and referenced elsewhere: "The term can also refer to less contentious debates about what exactly Shakespeare wrote in the [[Shakespeare_Apocrypha|collaborative world of the Elizabethan theatre". I have to say that I have been involved with this subject for over 20 years and when I have heard the term Shakespeare Authorship Question, it has never been used in my presense except when dicussing the issues raised on this page. Whenever someone has spoke or written about collaborations, the term used is..well...Shakespeare collaborations, or sometimes "Shakespeare Apocrapha", which really isn't right, but people use it anyway. I suggest we delete that line as well, or move it it to bottom with the other links (I think it's already there, but I'll check).

So, keeping all that in mind, I would like to offer something along these lines:

The term Shakespearean authorship question refers to scholarly debates dating back to the 18th century over whether the works attributed to William Shakespeare of Stratford-upon-Avon were actually written by another writer, or a group of writers, using "William Shakespeare" (or the hyphenated version 'Shake-Speare') as a pen name. While many candidates for alternative authorship have been proposed, including Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe and Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford, it is generally accepted that Shakespeare's plays are correctly attributed.]].

This is the information I think should be in an opening paragraph on this subject. If you think I'm on the right track - feel free to massage the word usage abit. I enjoy co-editing more than most.Smatprt 06:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

That looks great, much improved! Thank you as well for talking to me and not at me - it's good when editors can have a conversation rather than an argument, and I too enjoy co-editing. How about we give people a couple of days to voice objections and then install? Rmj12345 21:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine with me. Thank you, as well! Smatprt 22:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Did Plato write Plato

Did Orwell really write 1984 ? Prove it. 72.184.143.196 21:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Aren't there still some of Orwell's notes around? And Orwell definitely existed as an author at least.

Minitrue speak goodwise on Orwell. Your crimethink doubleplusungood. 216.61.238.76 01:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greene Reference

This may sound dull, but if Greene is referring to a man named Shake-scene as an "upstart Crow..." etc, doesn't that imply that a man with a name roughly equivalent to Shakespeare was indeed working as a playwright/poet in London? If the Greene comment is evidence that he thought Shakespeare's authorship dubious, then it's also evidence that a Shakespeare or Shake-scene (an epithet?) was in London, working as an actor and writing under that name. Also, Greene writes like he knew this Shake-scene personally...what motive would he have to cover Shake-scene's true identity if he detested his presence, especially if he were Bacon, Marlowe, the Queen of England, etc...? Hesperides 03:27, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

GREENE ARGUMENT. The first reference to Shakespeare the actor appears in an autobiographical pamphlet from 1592. When the Cambridge-educated dramatist Robert Greene died on 3 September 1592 at the age of 32, his friend and fellow playwright Henry Chettle edited together some of his papers. Seventeen days later, they were published under the title A Groats-worth of Witte. One article, addressed to three unidentified playwrights, was entitled “To those Gentlemen his Quondam acquaintance, that spend their wits in making plaies, R.G. wishest a better exercise, and wisdome to prevent his extremities.” The first, “thou famous gracer of Tragedians” and follower of a “Machivilian … Diabolicall Atheisme” was almost certainly Christopher Marlowe; the second, “yong Juvenal, that byting Satyrist” was most likely the leading satirist of the time, Thomas Nashe; and the third, “sweete St. George” could easily have been George Peele. After admonitions to the three, they are served with a warning to beware of a particular player:

"Base-minded men all three of you, if by my miserie you be not warn’d: for unto none of you (like mee) sought those burres to cleave: those Puppets (I meane) that spake from our mouths, those Anticks garnisht in our colours. … Yes, trust them not: for there is an upstart Crow, beautified with our feathers(a), that with his Tyger’s hart wrapped in a Player’s(b) hyde, supposes he is as well able to bombast out a blanke verse as the best of you: and beeing an absolute Iohannes factotum(c), is in his owne conceit the only Shake-scene in a countrey. O that I might entreat your rare wits to be employed in more profitable courses: & let these Apes imitate your past excellence, and never more acquaint them with your admired inventions." Key : (a) see below, (b) actor’s, (c) Jack-of-all-trades

Apart from the “Shake-scene” wordplay, the fact that identifies Shake-speare the author is the “Tyger’s hart wrapped in a Player’s hyde” which is derived from a speech by the Duke of Yorke in Henry VI, Part 3, which Shakespeare in his “Player’s hyde” appears to have claimed to have written. Queen Margaret has murdered the Duke of York’s young son Rutland, and soaking a handkerchief in his blood, offers it to the Duke for consolation. Some time later, the Duke of York is captured by the Queen and as he faces his execution he confronts her inhumanity:

Yorke. … Oh Tygres Heart, wrapt in a Woman’s Hide,/How could’st though drayne the Life-blood of the Child,/To bid the Father wipe his eyes withall,/And yet be seene to beare a Woman’s face?/(1590-2 Henry VI, Part 3, Act 1, Scene 4)

The “Tyger’s hart” casts Shakespeare as ruthless and predatory and the charge that he “supposes he is as well able to bombast out a blanke verse as the best of you [three dramatists]” is evidently referring to his claim to authorship. Greene had previously used the crow and feathers metaphor in the dedication to his Myrrour of Modestie (1584) “But your honour may thinke I play like Ezops Crowe, which dekt hir selfe with others feathers, or like the proud Poet Batyllus, which subscribed his name to Virgils verses, and yet presented them to Augustus.” This fable of Aesop’s, The Crow, the Eagle, and the Feathers is directed “… against people who boast that they have something they do not.” The recommendation that dramatists should “never more acquaint them [the players] with your inventions,” makes it clear that the accusation is one of plagiarism. An Elizabethan actor usually worked from a prompt script consisting of pages cut and pasted together into a scroll. This gave his own lines and the cues that preceded them. So it was unusual for an actor to possess a complete script (“invention”) and the complaint appears to be that Shakespeare not only had access to them but was asserting his authorship of them. There was some doubt at the time as to whether Greene actually composed this piece. The dramatist Henry Chettle was accused of hiding behind the deceased Greene’s name to propagate his own views, especially since the publisher William Wright had entered it in the Stationers Register “upon the peril of Henrye Chettle,” thereby awarding Chettle full responsibility. Chettle subsequently published Kind Hart’s Dream [registered 8 December 1592] in which he reveals that: "About these three months since died M. Robert Greene ... his Groatsworth of Wit, in which a letter written to diverse play-makers, is offensively by one or two of them taken …" We note that Chettle says that the letter was written to the ones who took offence not about. This means that he is referring to any two of Marlowe, Nashe, and probably Peele. He continues: "With neither of them that took offence was I acquainted, and with one of them I care not if I never be ..." This sounds like the diabolical atheist Marlowe. Our problem is, who was the other one? Chettle informs us that: "... myself have seen his demeanor no less civil than he excellent in the quality he professes: besides, divers of worship have reported his uprightness of dealing, which argues his honesty, and his facetious grace in writing, that approves his art …" In the hope of neutralizing the Groatsworth attack, some have claimed that this apology was intended for Shakespeare but there is nothing here that suggests that it is him. In fact, it is much more likely to have been Thomas Nashe because there is good evidence that he had already taken offence to the Groatsworth before Chettle’s apology was published. In the second edition of Pierce Penilesse His Supplication to the Devil [registered 8 August 1592; 1st edition published 8 September 1592; 2nd edition almost immediately after] Nashe had identified the Groatsworth to be a “scald lying trivial pamphlet ... given out to be my doing”. That Nashe was suspected is confirmed by Chettle’s claim that the misdeed was “not mine nor Maister Nashes”. Aside from being accused of authoring an offensive pamphlet, Nashe’s anger seems also to have arisen from his friend Greene's name being tainted “with pamphleting on him after his death”. To me, this suggests that Shakspere was stealing work and calling it his own more than that he was creating work of his own. (Puzzle Master 18:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC))

–––A couple of things, though: First, your application of the concept of plagiarism is anachronistic. Next, Greene's claim is that "Shake-scene" "supposes he is as well able to bombast out a blanke verse as the best of [them]". This implies that the person he is talking about is actually writing the verse, just not very well. Someone who steals poetry doesn't suppose himself to be a good writer. Also, in what way is Shakespeare meant, in 1592, to have illicitly taken credit for someone else's work? Is the implication that someone handed Shakespeare a complete draft of a play and then wandered over to The Theatre and waved it around claiming to have written it? Who would let that happen? And who would then continue to let it happen for 2 more decades? The Greene evidence seems like a non-starter to me. Brandon Christopher 21:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your conclusion from the evidence. If someone 'supposes' he is able to do something this does not mean that he IS doing something. However, it is the reference to Aesop's Crow that elucidates Greene's intended meaning. (Puzzle Master 13:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC))