Talk:Shabbat

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Judaism Portal Shabbat is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles.

Project Judaism To-do: edit purge watch Here are some tasks you can do: Requests: Jewish and Biblical Units of Measurement or some such name, to include material of Ancient Hebrew units of measurement but also Talmudic units and use in Halacha (a la the Hebrew Wikipedia article he:מידות ומשקלות תורניים) Collaboration of the week The current Orthodox Rabbinical Biography Collaboration of the Week is Rabbi Chaim Michael Dov Weissmandl. The current Judaism Collaboration of the Week is Zealotry. Translate Please note that in many instances, projects related to Torah study proceed much faster in Hebrew than in English. Mikraot Gedolot (rabbinic bible) at Wikisource in English (sample) and Hebrew (sample). Mishnah at Wikisource - Hebrew text with translation and commentary; there is also a Hebrew version. Shulchan Aruch at Wikisource - Hebrew text with English translation New projects Mikraot Gedolot Project at Hebrew Wikisource Megillot Mikraot Gedolot Eikhah Copyedit: see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Rival Biblical views Cleanup: Jewish mythology - needs to be rewritten to be inline with our other mythology articles. Expand: Wikiversity: School of Jewish Studies. Part of the new open content university, Wikiversity. Stubs: Category:Judaism stubs, Category:Tanakh stubs Update: Portal:Judaism is WikiProject Judaism's frequently updated portal. You can help make this the best portal on Wikipedia. Look at the talk page to see how you can help.

Contents 1 Positive Miswoth 2 Shabbat vs. Sabbath 3 Deletion of debate 4 Adaptation of Islam for Sabbath 5 Other Sabbaths 6 Playing with pets 7 Reform Sabbaths 8 Christian Observance of Jewish Sabbath 9 Transliteration 10 Encouraged and permissible activities 11 Shomer Shammas 12 {{Torah portion}} 13 Shabbat vs. Shabbos 14 I'm deleting the non-encyclipedic part 15 Never an obligation to include meat 16 Meat 17 Special Refrigerator light-lock 18 Permitted Activities

[edit] Positive Miswoth

Hi, I added some stuff about the positive commandments and inyanim of Shabbat but my Wikipedia format knowledge isn't so great, so someone may want to clean it up. I'll probably learn more about formatting Wikipedia and then make more changes. -Avraham

The first thing to do is register a user name for yourself! I'll try to fix up the section you added. The part about biblical/rabbinic is, in my opinion, not relevant to this article. But nice addition nonetheless. Shalom, DLand 06:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shabbat vs. Sabbath

Shouldn't this be moved to Sabbath, or else Sabbath made a redirect here? --Brion 00:50 Oct 18, 2002 (UTC)

It could be. I've been working on this page to specifically refer to the Jewish Sabbath concept. I was thinking that the more general Sabbath article could be developed to discuss the biblical origin of the holiday, and a brief overview of how it is interpreted in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and perhaps in other cultures. Then there would be a link to this particular entry (Shabbat) for details on the Jewish understanding of the day. When more details are written on the Christian or Islamic view of this day, these could be developed into their own separate entries as well. As things currently stand, the two articles are short enough to combine. I am just envisioning that as they grow longer, the separation will become more useful. RK

I don't think that we need a disambiguation block, since the Christian and Pagan holidays are never called "Shabbat". Or am I wrong? Toby 18:10 Nov 3, 2002 (UTC)

Removed. Toby 05:04 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)

Since there can be lengthy debates over man's relationship with Shabbat and over examples of Shabbat prohibitions, such as picking up corn to eat on Shabbat, I see no reason why the two articles should be combined. If anything else, the current "Sabbath" article should be combined with the disambiguations, such as references to the notorious Black Sabbath music group.

-- Darth Sidious, 18:28 PST, Feb 14/06

[edit] Deletion of debate

"12 hour" debate deleted by anonouser. Because it's long and not directly relevant to this article, I'm leaving a pointer here, rather than reverting or creating an archive in the article's namespace. Mkmcconn 18:02, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Adaptation of Islam for Sabbath

The following statement is not factual and tries to imply a Judaic centrality in Islam: "Subsequently, with the advent of Islam Friday...that may be derived from the practice of having market days on Friday in the Middle East in preparation for a 'Sabbath'"

The Day of Rest is a Judeo-Christian concept in remembrance of God resting after creating the heavens and earth. This idea is not accepted in Islam as the implied need for God to rest, is contradictory to the concept of an All-Powerful being. In reference to the creation of the heavens and earth, the Qur'an states:

"Your Guardian Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days*, then he settled Himself on the Throne..." (Quran: Surah Al-A'raf (The Heights) verse 54)

Commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali: "But lest we should be obsessed with the Jewish idea that Allah rested on the seventh day, we are told that the Creation was but a prelude to Allah's work: For His authority is exercised constantly by the laws which He established and enforces in all parts of His creation."

• • • • • Little nuances like these are results of misinterpretations, or simple ignorance of the matter. Jews do not believe that God needs to sleep or rest. Isaiah 40:28-29

     'Do you not know? 
      Have you not heard? 
      The LORD is the everlasting God, 
      the Creator of the ends of the earth 
      He does not grow tired or weary, 
      and his understanding no one can fathom. 

      He gives strength to the weary 
      and increases the power of the weak.'

[edit] Other Sabbaths

The paragraph "other sabbaths" is very poorly written. I don't know the subject well enough to rewrite it but someone should. --zero 08:23, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That is some leftover material from anonymous user <134.124.144.44> , who introduced some creative understandings of the Sabbath should be. Despite a few attempts to learn who held these views, we never succeeded. It seems to be his own conclusions. Like the other material contributed by him, it is best removed, as Wikipedia encyclopedia articles should not contain original research or unique views. RK 16:18, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)~

The Sabbath mentioned in Leviticus 23:32 is not the seventh day Sabbath, but an annual twenty-four hour Sabbath that takes in parts of two days. It begins on the evening of the ninth day and ends the following evening on the tenth day (Atonement). This Sabbath like the land Sabbath of Leviticus chapter 25 is more than one day in duration. A Sabbath is not limited to a single day. In fact it can be over 300 days long (Leviticus 25:4). This is the only annual Sabbath that is 24 hours in length. God calls the evening before the Day of Atonement the ninth and not the tenth day as it would be called if a new day began at sunset. 34.

[edit] Playing with pets

Spending time with one's pets

Dear RK, I think this newly inserted paragraph is just utterly confusing. Can you state which posek gave guidance to the Modern Orthodox community on how to play with your pets in a manner that conforms to halacha? In absence of this, I suggest this matter is left alone. JFW | T@lk 17:45, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've now rephrased the contended bit to sound less radical. IMHO it's not a compliment to say that Modern Orthodox authorities "disregard" elements of halakha.
JFW | T@lk 22:25, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reform Sabbaths

I think we need to explicate Reform positions on Shabbat observance, and also differentiating between Conservative and Orthodox halacha. I promise ot help work on it if others will. :)--Savant1984 07:35, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree that this topic should be discussed, but I don't know enough to help. -Reuvenk_[T][C] 17:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Observance of Jewish Sabbath

The mention of Christians changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday is not entirely true. Roman Catholics changed it (the New Testament gives no instruction to change the 4th Commandment [of which is an eternal covenant) during the 3rd-4th centuries. Although the Roman Catholics became the predominant Cristian church, it wasn't the only one. There have always been Christians (like the Waldensians) and beginning in the 1800's, the Seventh Day Adventists that keep the Sabbath.

Perhaps a note that wouldn't group all Christians as keeping Sunday, or a reference that states that the Catholic Church changed the day, but there are still Christians observing the original Jewish Sabbath.

DM

Jewish believers may not be happy about it, but there are "Hebrew Christians" who seek to retain the Jewish observances of their ancestors, including Shabbat, while acknowledging Jesus as Messiah. This might make inaccurate the statement that Shabbat is not observed in the Jewish way within the Christian religion (depending on whether you regard them as a Hebrew sect of Christians, or a Messianic sect of Jews). 193.63.239.165 10:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transliteration

The word is written in Hebrew with no long vowel (alef) and a single bet (with no shadda, or the equivalent in Hebrew), shouldn't that make the transliteration Shabaṯ --Alif 10:15, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Alif: The letter bet contains a dagesh hazaq, which is the Hebrew equivalent of a shadda. It takes the form of a dot in the center of a letter, but is not usually written except in religious texts and books for beginners, including children's literature. Also, note that alef is not a vowel in Hebrew, but a glottal stop equivalent to the Arabic hamza.

Speaking as a Mizrahi Jew with Teimani pronunciation, I can tell you that the alef is not pronounced as a gottal stop: ayin is. But all that is irrelevant, common practice it to spell it Shabbat or Shabbos, and as Wikipedia seems to adopt Modern Israeli Hebrew over Ashkenazi Hebrew (which I find surprising) on religious matters, Shabbat seems in my eyes to be correct. kol tuv, Avraham.

‘Ayin is not a glottal stoip in classical Sephardi and historical Ashkenazi Hebrew, but either a voiced pharyngeal fricative or a velar nasal. Alef with niqqud is a glottal stop in classical Hebrew, but the glottal stop is often not pronounced anymore. -- Olve 10:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Encouraged and permissible activities

I've modified some of the items on this list:

• The "sex on Shabbat" item was confusingly worded — was there really a need to say that a couple should have sex in privacy? (Also note that the practice is not purely kabbalistic in nature.)
• The digression on Jewish vs. secular fiction is not directly related to the topic of Shabbat, and would be better suited to a general discussion of halakhah. (Remember that this is an encyclopedia, not a kiruv manual.)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by FlourDustedHazzn (talk • contribs).

[edit] Shomer Shammas

I haven't seen the movie, but is that what he actually says? If so, we should put (sic) after it. --Savant1984 06:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] {{Torah portion}}

FYI: (1) The central part of Jewish services on Shabbat in synagogue is the cantillation of the Torah reading for that week's Parsha (Torah portion) and it is also usually the basis of the rabbi's sermon and the source of classes and lectures during the week. Bar Mitzvah celebrations often involve the reading of the weekly Torah portion on Shabbat in synagogue by the Bar Mitzvah boy (or girl in non-Orthodox settings). (2) The template {{Torah portion}} is at the bottom of the Shabbat article's page, so essentially it's part of the "See also" section which is a legitimate way of connecting related and connected topics on an article. (3) If a reader finds the {{Torah portion}} to be "too intrusive" then any reader is free to click "Hide" on the top right section of the template's heading which shrinks it to an unobtrusive one liner. Finally, (4) the {{Torah portion}} is presently diligently updated weekly by User:Dauster early each Sunday so that any readers may learn more about the weekly Parsha. User:Dauster summarizes each week's Parsha and adds some interesting graphics which surely adds life and color to a page that may gain the attention of readers who don't know much about this subject and may want to learn more. Please refer all further comments and discussions to one centralized location at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Template: Torah portion Thank you. IZAK 08:55, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shabbat vs. Shabbos

I switch all the remaining Shabbos to Shabbat to avoid confusion and for concisity. Epson291 07:28, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I think adding a small etymology of the pronounciation of Shabbos, talking about the differences in sav and tav could be a good idea. Epson291 07:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Just a preemptive comment to those who object to User:Epson291's edit, although Wikipedia does not "favor" the Sephardi pronounciation over the Ashkenazi one or vice versa, it is important that while the article is entitled "Shabbat" we should be consistent with that spelling throughout the article. --DLand^TALK 01:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Ask most English speaking Ashkenazic Yidden(A large percentage of English Speaking Yidden) It is Shabbos, not Shabbat. Even my sefardic Rebbeim and teachers say Shabbos. SO, it would make sense to be shabbos not shabbat. --Shaul avrom 01:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm deleting the non-encyclipedic part

Someone added a lengthy halachik discussion that looks like it belongs in an artscroll halacha book, its way too into minutiae to keep on wikipedia for people who dont even know what shabos is, so im deleting it. Wikipedia itself says its not written in proper enclyclipedia format.someone please write something that a beginner can relate to, basic concepts of shabat —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.98.212.46 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Never an obligation to include meat

This article included a strange statement, "While general practice is that these meals include meat, there is not a strict obligation to do so as there is on Yom Tov." There is, in fact, never an obligation to include meat on Yom Tov or at any other time, even at the Pesach Seder, where vegetarians often use a roasted beet for the Korban Pesach. There is a strong minority vegetarian tradition in Judaism, so it's preposterous say that there's an ever obligation to include meat. Also, the Yom Tov article makes no mention of any such obligation. However, among non-vegetarians, it is common to include meat in the first two Shabbat meals. Therefore, I removed the strange statement, but inserted "which are usually meat meals" at the end of the following sentence. NYC JD reverted my change. I await a discussion on this point, without which I will restore my change based on the explanation I provide here. Anomalocaris 08:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Meat and wine are required on Shalosh Regalim as part of the mitzvah of "ve'somachto be'chagecho", Deut. 16:14. As to the Shabbos meals, the general practice - thought not codified anywhere AFAIK - is to eat meat the first two meals. Korban Pesach? You eat Korban Pesach on Passover? God help you! The temple has been in ruins for a while now.

I hadn't "reverted" you per se - I just restored the status quo after an unexplained removal of a chunk. But I do oppose. - NYC JD (make a motion) 12:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

1. The commandment וְשָׂמַחְתָּ translates "rejoice, be happy" not "serve meat"! It would make a vegetarian unhappy to eat meat, which would violate the commandment! 2. My modification of the sentence following the one I removed handles the general practice. 3. According to Passover — Korban Pesach "Many Sephardic Jews, however, have the opposite custom of eating lamb or goat meat during the Seder in memory of the Korban Pesach." But that is not my point. My point is that the one time and place where one might think there would an obligation to include meat — The Korban Pesach on the Seder plate — there is no requirement and vegetarians use a roasted beet instead. In short, there is no obligation to include meat with any meal. 67.101.102.116 18:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I would be very interested in knowing the source for the leniency that a person can eat a roasted beet in lieu of the Korban Pesah. Jon513 13:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a minhag to have meat for most meals. I don't understand why the two loaves were removed. JFW | T@lk 07:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meat

I'm getting rather tired of the vegetarian activism here. I have now made the article as NPOV as possible, namely by stating that traditionally meat or fish are served. That should satisfy all opinions. I'm fully aware of the enormous repositories of spin at the disposal of pro-vegs, but one cannot escape the notion that Judaism has traditionally regarded meat as a celebratory dish, and the majority of Orthodox Jews certainly still see it this way. This page is not the right place to open a large debate on whether vegetarianism is a Jewish ideal. JFW | T@lk 09:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

vast majority. hear hear. - NYC JD (objection, asked and answered!) 14:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Special Refrigerator light-lock

I once lived in Israel for a year between 1996-1997 and I noticed that the refrigerator in our apartment had a special latch attached to the button controlling the refrigerator-light. During the Shabbat, or so I was told by our landlord, the latch was put in place thus hindering the fridge from lighting up and thus violating the rule about using electrical equipment. Though I'm not sure how they accounted for the fact that the fridge itself, light or not, is electric. I would add this to the article but I cant actually give any source other than my own, just thought I'd mention it though. :-) Fred26 18:31, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was okay for electric things to run on their own (just as it's okay for candles to burn on their own), what's problematic is turning the light on (by opening the door) and turning it off again (by closing the door). —Angr 13:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Permitted Activities

Surely 'Permitted Activities' and 'Activities that are Encouraged' are different things? I'm not an authority on such things, but I would have thought that the title for this part would be better as 'Encouraged Activities' or some such. --Sithemadmonkey 00:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)