Talk:Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

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    Contents

    [edit] Conjecture

    This article is overripe with conjecture. It's obviously written by a Beatles fan with too much fantasy and imagination. Well know facts documented in various sources and especially in Lewisohn are ignored and contradicted. Looking at the section below ('Changes') it becomes obvious the author, while a fan, is not a learned historian in the matter (and probably not a professional musician either).

    Reading even further into these topics it also becomes obvious most people here have not taken the time to read existing reliable sources and to an alarming extent don't know WTF they're talking about.

    Discussing whether the songs have a common theme is just silly.

    Enough for now. Back to the books, crew!

    PS. Here's another example. And there might be HUNDREDS. Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields were not 'dropped' from Sgt Pepper. Read your sources! The first item on the agenda, dating back to the initial plan drawn up by Epstein and Martin, was to release a single. And that plan precluded use of single releases on albums. Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields were never a part of the Sgt Pepper project even though they were part of the same recording sessions because they were the single for early 1967.

    A word to the author(s) here: keep to the facts and don't 'ad lib' so much. Ad libbing in music is great; in history it's an ABOMINATION.

    Seriously: as things stand right now this article is TERRIBLE. And now I'm outta here. I can't tolerate this travesty any longer.

    [edit] Changes

    A couple of comments here about the changes I have made:

    1) The "Yellow Submarine" movie came out in 1968, a year after the Sergeant Pepper album, and could not possibly have inspired the idea of the Sergeant Pepper album.

    2) Sergeant Pepper is not a true concept album, since the songs are unrelated.

    IIRC Lennon said something to the effect of "Sgt. Pepper's was a concept album because we said it was." --KQ
    That's the first I've heard of that quote, but I still would argue that throwing together a group of unrelated songs and calling it a concept album doesn't make it so. In any case, there certainly is no overriding theme that surrounds it. And, as I recall, Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields were also recorded at the Sgt. Pepper sessions and didn't even make it into that album.
    But, the songs do have a theme, or at least an underlying connection: all of them concern either loss of love, loneliness, being with someone, or living without them. A sort of 'Lonely Hearts' experience. Probably why Penny Lane and Strawberry fields weren't included. Personally, I think it is a concept album, but I'm sure much is up to interpretation.
    "Penny Lane" and "Strawberry Fields" were both recorded and intended for the Sgt Pepper's release. However, Capitol records in the USA was pushing hard for new singles to release and Martin let these two go in order to satisfy them. They were later included on the MMT album of course. I don't really "get" why they didn't put them on Pepper's anyway, despite the early releases, but guess they saw something problematic about releasing the album with anything less than "all new" material. Wyss 17:51, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

    Maybe this page should be moved to Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts' Club Band. I'll do it unless anyone objects -- Tarquin 07:14 Aug 19, 2002 (PDT)

    Promoting all these was on my agenda for Sometime in the Near Future. So of course I have no objections. :-) --KQ

    My copy of the album is titled "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", with "Sgt." abbreviated on both the album title and the track titles, so that's where I moved it. --LDC

    User:AntonioMartin mistakenly made an article for this album at Sgt. Pepper Lonely's Hearts Club Band by following a misspelled link at heavy metal (now fixed). I've merged most of his stuff into this article, but haven't moved in a sentence in the first paragraph that read "many fans say that it marked the beginning of the Heavy Metal music genre", because I don't believe it. I also left out the following paragraph:

    [edit] Cover image

    It was John Lennon who pictured the image of The Beatles at a cemetary, which would signal the end of one Beatle era and the beginning of another one, and Peter Blake who thought of the idea of having many people attend the funeral. Blake then asked all of the Beatles to come up with lists of people that they wanted in the funeral. Every Beatle came up with a list of people, except Ringo Starr.

    because I just don't have enough knowledge to weave it in. I have added, however, a complete list of celebrities and items on the front cover. People who know more about the subject than I might want to have a look at what's changed, see if the above can be integrated, and so on. --Camembert

    A cover image large enough to actually recognize the people on it would be great here. Mkweise

    Why? So we can have a bigger copyright violation than we already do?
    I am not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that as it stands it almost certainly isn't a copyright violation because it falls under fair use. However, the bigger the image, the close to trouble we get, and anything large enough to be able to recognise faces might be pushing it. --Camembert

    [edit] A Day in the Life

    This article says that the "had a smoke" line is a "clear reference to Marijuana", but the A Day in the Life article says that it isn't. Shouldn't they be saying the same thing? --ShawnVW

    The "had a smoke" line is why the BBC banned the song. They thought it was marijuana, but it was really just a cigarette. The "I want to turn you on" line actually was a drug reference. -- anonymous

    "I'd Love to Turn You On" means "I'd love to turn you on to the truth" according to Lennon, I believe.

    [edit] Lucy in the sky with Diamonds

    The article says that Ringo claims to have seen Julian's drawing that inspired "Lucy in the Sky.." I distinctly remember seeing it at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland USA. Am I crazy/hallucinating?

    The article states that 'during a newspaper interview in 2004, McCartney was quoted as saying, "...Lucy In The Sky, that's pretty obvious. ...but the writing was too important for us to mess it up by getting off our heads all the time."' and cites the quote. However, the website linked for the citation has no mention of a newspaper interview and only mentions Lucy in the Sky with once with respect to it being banned. Web.archive.org has a stored copy of the site just 12 days or so before it was listed retrieved in 2004, and there is no mention of the quote in the archive either. I think this information may be completely fabricated -- does anybody know anything about it?

    [edit] The Hendersons

    Hi SDGonBen, you removed the first mentioning of "the Hendersons" in the article. No doubt you had a reason for that, but now the second mentioning (starring ... The Bee Gees as the Hendersons) is inintelligible. Could you fix this please? regards, High on a tree 23:34, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] People on cover

    Do we really need two breakdowns of which celebrities appear on the cover? mat_x 20:54, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] Rip-Offs

    Sorry if I'm not following protocol here (I'm a newb), but what the hell is thefreedictionary.com doing ripping off Wikipedia articles wholesale, including CSS? You guys should cease and desist them regarding that. Unless you're OK with it. Like I said, I don't know.

    Link: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Sgt%20Peppers

    The page has a disclaimer at the bottom that the page is taken from Wikipedia. I suppose it's a sort of mirror. ("This article is copied from an article on Wikipedia.org - the free encyclopedia created and edited by online user community. The text was not checked or edited by anyone on our staff. Although the vast majority of the wikipedia encyclopedia articles provide accurate and timely information please do not assume the accuracy of any particular article. This article is distributed under the terms of GNU Free Documentation License.", right at the end of the article.) 65.94.93.236 00:57, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Page length

    This article is getting long. I suggest cutting the "drugs" section. Nothing new there. also the "Critical reception" section could be cut shorter. - Drhaggis 23:18, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

    In general, the article is a bit verbose and could be trimmed, but it is only 31k, and is thus not in desperate need. Tuf-Kat 00:40, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] Lucy is about LSD....

    Paul even admited it....http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5121163Habsfannova 18:41, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

    According to John Lennon, who wrote the song, the title is from the drawing and the rest is based on the writings of Lewis Carroll.

    [edit] It wasn't Muhomm

    The claim in this article that the boxer in the front row is Muhammad Ali conflicts with the opinion here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_images_on_the_cover_of_Sgt._Pepper%27s_Lonely_Hearts_Club_Band That article claims it is Sonny Liston.

    I, and most of the net, agree that it is Sonny Liston. The Bear was really known for that scowl - although many biographers seem to agree that it was due to shyness rather then meanness. Unless he was in the ring, of course.

    Chad Matsalla

    • Agreed; the List of images on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band has cited Liston at least since it was broken off from the main article, and, I suspect, long before that. I seem to recall that that list was based upon an "official" guide published with a particular edition of the album, also. Since the list of names that appears in the main article is just a sampler, I'm going to remove Ali which should do no harm in any case and keep us consistent between articles. Jgm 21:00, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Loop

    The CD version of Sgt. Pepper, in its sleeve jacket, says thus:

    "After the last droplets of the crashing piano chord of 'A Day in the Life' have evaporated, come a few seconds of 15 kilocycle tone, put there - especially to annoy your dog - at the request of John Lennon. Then, as the coup de grâce, there is a few seconds of nonsense Beatle chatter, taped, cut into several pieces and stuck back together at random so that, as George Martin says, purchasers of the vinyl album who did not have an auto return on their record player would say "What the hell's that?" and find the curious noise going on and on ad infinitum in the concentric run-out groove."

    So now we have the information. I just don't know how to use this in a Wiki-style way or on such a big entry. Feel free to do so yourselves. MToolen 00:20, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

    the voice is saying we all fuck like superman..c

    [edit] Innacuracy

    The article says, "The New York Times described the album as "like Beethoven coming to the supermarket"." But this website contradicts that claim. They credit someone else. Anyone got any other info?

    [1]

    Peregrine981 14:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Probably a really old spelling question...

    ...but it seems worth addressing. Standard referenece books by Billboard Press and Rolling Stone Press give the album title, as does Wiki, with an possessive apostrophe, as Sgt. Pepper's ..., whereas the album sleeve famously spells it Sgt. Peppers ..., no apostrophe. I imagine, but don't, that the record label itself has an apostrophe. In any event, this discrepancy ought to be noted; there's probably some famous anecdote about it, and before I go searching, I thought some Beatles musiscologist would know the answer off the top of his/her head. Cheerio! - Tenebrae 21:19, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

    It's "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", after all, throughout the intro and outro tracks, named likewise, they talk about Sgt. Peppers being the head of the band, thusly, it's his band. The apostrophe, therefore, is rightly so. The reason for the discrepancy is, at least to myself, unknown.

    [edit] The Loop (Reprise)

    according to wiki, the vocals featured in the closing loop is a sped-up voice (possibly Paul McCartney's) reciting the phrase "never to be any other way". however, it is quite obvious that it is she "never kissed me any other way"

    JRH

    • I'm sorry, but does no one listen? It sounds like many things because it is nothing. As it says, right there in the sleeve (if you need proof, look for yourself), it's just randomized chatter that was probably recorded unimportantly and just messed around with until it achieved something funny. Looking into it any more (or any less) is missing the point. I'm sorry that I'm breaking AGF in this, but something just had to be said before this got out of hand any further. MToolen 04:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Pet Sounds

    Shouldn't the influence of The Beach Boy's album be noted here? After all, hasn't Paul said that the goal of Sgt. Pepper's was to equal Pet Sounds?

    I think there should be a brief statement here about this. Nothing more. --Siva1979Talk to me 17:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Song infobox needed

    It would be really cool if someone could at least create the infoboxes on all the songs - just creating it would be alot , then others will fill them up. Thanks MrGater 09:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Michael Cooper

    The Michael Cooper referred as photographer of the cover is a former NBA player. That seems (to me) not correct. Who knows it better and can help?
    de:[hd] 84.142.27.76 14:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Release date

    Wasn't this album actually released one or two weeks before 1 June? Please look into this.

    [edit] GA Re-Review and In-line citations

    Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and currently would not pass criteria 2b.
    Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 01:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Later critical reception

    In the years since the album's release some have criticized the album for the trends that it started, such as supposed "over-indulgence" on the part of artists, spending a great deal of time and money producing high minded concept albums, and the beginning of supposed decadence in rock and roll. Many critics have also become more negative about the album's music, many claiming that other albums such as Revolver are superior.

    Some sourcing would be much appreciated I think. Ascribing positions to "some" or "many" is not the same as pointing to actual individual statements.

    [edit] GA Review

    This article is up for GA review. LuciferMorgan 12:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Reasons for GA Delisting

    In a 3 to 0 decision, this article's GA status has been revoked because it fails criterion 2. b. of 'What is a Good Article?', which states;

    (b) the citation of its sources using inline citations is required (this criterion is disputed by editors on Physics and Mathematics pages who have proposed a subject-specific guideline on citation, as well as some other editors — see talk page).

    LuciferMorgan 21:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Lyrics Links

    The following discussion was posted on Wikipedia's main Beatles discussion page, and appears to also be relevant here:

    Are links to lyrics sites appropriate? I have noticed them in some music articles, and I believe they do add value to the listings. I added one at the bottom of the external links section. In the interest of full disclosure, it is a website I maintain. If the interest is positive, I would likely add lyrics links to other musical articles where appropriate. Shadar 19:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

    My understanding is that lyrics sites reprint lyrics in violation of copyright, and that's why we're not supposed to link to them. The relevant guideline to check would be Wikipedia:External links, but that page doesn't directly address this question. I'm going to post a question to the discussion page there, and perhaps someone can tell us whether my idea is correct or mistaken. In the latter case, I'd be happy to restore the link myself. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:40, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    I posted my question Wikipedia talk:External links#Lyrics sites here. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    If the decision is made that lyrics sites are inappropriate due to the copyright violation issue, I would like to delete the links I found. As a newbie, it would give me good practice in editting. Is that an appropriate action for a new user, and is there a FAQ on deletion etiquette? Shadar 19:52, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    Well, we received an answer, and it refers us to item #2 at Wikipedia:External links#Restrictions on linking. It comes down to whether the lyrics are actually under copyright or in the public domain, and whether or not the site in question has the copyright holder's permission to publish the lyrics. If you'd like to remove links to lyrics sites that are in violation of our copyright policy, then you're welcome to do so. The best way to avoid offense is probably to mention the External links policy (or WP:EL, as we like to call it) in your edit summary. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    I can certainly understand that decision. It turns out I violated the self interest clause anyways, since I posted my own site. I should have recommended the change in talk, and then if someone agreed they could make the change. Thanks for the help with this, GTBacchus. Shadar 17:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
    I notice that there are also links to lyric pages on each of the Wikipedia Beatles album pages. I should have time to fix those tonight. I'll follow the above advice of GTBacchus in mentioning the WP:EL, and refer to this discussion on each album discussion page. InnerRevolution7 02:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
    I have made the above-stated change. InnerRevolution7 04:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] " influenced nearly every album that came after it"

    I'm deleting this bit. It's way too ambiguous. It says influencED, past tense, as if to say it is no longer influencing albums. "NEARLY every album that came after". Nearly? Which ones did and didn't it influence? The entire sentence is meaningless. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.62.140.50 (talk) 04:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

    [edit] "one of the first 'gatefold' album covers"

    'The package was also one of the first 'gatefold' album covers, that is, the album could be opened up like a book'

    This needs to be deleted, because it's completely wrong. It wasn't even the first Beatles gatefold album (Beatles "Songs, Pictures and Stories" #VJ-1092 is a gatefold album, "The Beatles Story" Capitol TBO-2222 is gatefold, The Help! Soundtrack MAS-2386 (1965) is also gatefold .. i think. "Beatles for Sale" OP 7179 is gatefold). But these aren't close to being the 'first' ones either. Gatefold releases were not new or rare. Elvis had a gatefold album "Elvis is Back" RD-27171 from 1960. Bobby Darin's "For Teenagers Only" Atco Sp-1001 is another gatefold from 1960. "The Fabulous Fabian" #CHLX-5005 is a gatefold album from 1960. Most broadway releases were gatefolds, as were soundtracks - "Funny Girl" Capitol LP VAS 2059 (1964) "Hello Dolly" RCA Stereo LSOD-1087 (1964) "Golden Boy" CAPITOL VAS-2124 (1964) "Bye Bye Birdie" KOL 5510 (1960) "Bajour" KOS 2700 (1964) "Mary Poppins" RCA Victor CSO 1111 "Fade out fade in" ABC-Paramount ABC-OC-3 (1964) "I Had a Ball" Mercury OCS 6210 (1964) "Ben Franklin in Paris" Capitol VAS-2191 (1964) "What Makes Sammy Run" Columbia KOL6040 (1964) "The Boys from Syracuse" CAPITOL LP #STAO1933 (1963) "Mr President" Columbia KOS-2270 (1962) "Stop the World I Want To Get Off" AMS-88001 (1962) "Oklahoma!" CAPITOL SAO-595 (1955) "The Music Man" Capitol WAO-990 (1957) "THE UMBRELLAS OF CHERBOURG" Philips PCC-616 (1965) "It's a Mad, Mad World" UAS 5110 (1963) "Doctor Zhivago" MGM Records # S1E-6ST (1965) "Taras Bulba" UAL 4100 (1962). Then there's Beach Boys "Concert" Capitol STAO 2198 (1964) Dusty Springfield "Everything's Coming up Dusty" Philips RBL 1002 (1965) Johnny Cash "Sings the Ballads of the True West" C2L38 (1965) Art Blakey "'s Make It" LS 86001 (1965) plus Blonde on Blonde and Freak Out and Velvet Underground & Nico. Just about every Disney lp was a gatefold. I'd say there were literally hundreds, if not thousands, of gatefold albums released before Sgt Pepper. Most of the ones i have listed were found simply because they're currently on sale at ebay. Festivalimport 06:51, 2 January 2007 (UTC) Festivalimport 01:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

    I've done some more checking and i think it's pretty safe to say that there were thousands of gatefolds before sgt pepper, rather than hundreds Festivalimport 05:32, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

    So, would anyone object to that sentence being changed or removed? It seems to me that some of the false claims made about this album have become the 'truth' simply because they have been repeated so often and never questioned. Since this is the album profile that everyone is going to be parroting for years to come, we should try to get it right.Festivalimport 08:22, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] "First printed lyrics?"

    "the lyrics were printed on the back cover, the first time this had been done on a pop LP"

    This isn't true. I've noticed that most other profiles claim it was the first album with printed lyrics, full stop. Others claim it was the first with full song lyrics. This is one of the few profiles that specifies first "pop" lp with printed lyrics, but even this isn't true. I think the liner notes even include the mistake.

    Here's an earlier one
    Here's some kids album with full lyrics, 1961.
    Here's another one, 1965
    "The sounds of the Silly Surfers" SR 60977/MG 20977 (1964)
    "The Sounds of the Weird-ohs" SR 60976/MG 20976 (1964) both seen here

    Partial printed lyrics aren't difficult to find. Full printed lyrics are more difficult to find. I think the reason that no one knew any earlier examples is because no one bothered to look, or no one knew it was supposed to be important. Printed lyrics were a trivial issue when they appeared on other albums. Festivalimport 01:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Adolf Hitler was NOT turned down for cover pic!

    It was recently revealed by the cover's artist Peter Blake that Hitler's likeness was used but is hidden behind the fab four.

    http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/article/sgt%20pepper%20photographer%20hitler%20is%20on%20album%20cover_1021047

    Smiloid 06:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Personnel

    Would it be too much to ask for some corroboration for everyone and his dog who may have been walking down Abbey Road during the recording sessions? -- Ian Dalziel 23:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] " a decision Martin maintains he regrets to this day"

    George Martin says this on the South Bank Show special on the 25th Anniversary of Sgt. Pepper's release, I think. His regret is fair, as the release of Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane on Sgt. Pepper would have given them a more truthful context than their position on the US version (and all subsequent CD versions) of Magical Mystery Tour. However, the original intention was for Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane to initiate an album based on the Beatles' youths; and I believe the single of these songs was released before sessions for Sgt. Pepper really properly took off. Had they not been released, and the Beatles had continued their original intention to create an album around these songs based on themes from their childhoods, we would have been looking at a different album. Not just the Sgt. Pepper we know with Strawberry Fields and Penny Lane incorporated.

    I know the reference you mean. However I think this article is wrong when it suggests that George Martin's regret in releasing Strawberry Fields / Penny Lane as a single stemmed from their omission from Sgt Pepper. In my mind, he was saying that he regretted releasing those songs as a single because they were the first Beatles effort for ages that didn't make number one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.144.203.92 (talk) 21:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

    [edit] Billy Shears

    Is there any reference that Billy Shears was Ringo Starr's alias? I knew it was the name of the fictitious leader of Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and generally attributed to Paul McCartney in the Paul is dead conspiracy theory--ElfQrin 09:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

    I don't think the comment means any more than that Ringo is introduced as such in the song. "Billy Shears" is the singer of "with a little help". The fictitious leader of Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band is, astoundingly enough, Sergeant Pepper! -- Ian Dalziel 10:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
    Re-worded it. That any better? -- Ian Dalziel 10:27, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../s/g/t/Talk%7ESgt._Pepper%27s_Lonely_Hearts_Club_Band_bb17.html"