Talk:Sexual slavery

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    I changed the NPOV tag to Long NPOV, since it's not clear either on this page or in the article which sections have a dispute. --24.118.206.25 05:38, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

    --

    Surely there exists non-consensual sexual slavery. I think the current article is too biased towards the BDSM connotation.

    I find "consensual sexual slavery" to be an oxymoron. "Consensual" denotes that it is not slavery, besides, it is hardly a form of exerted ownership. I find putting prominent references to 'BDSM' in everything to do with sexual abuse to be not very sensitive.
    I would tend to agree with this. If it's truly consensual, then it's submissive bondage roleplaying, not true slavery. Technically this is done with techniques like "safe words" etc. Real sexual slavery is far worse. -Kasreyn
    I agree that the BDSM context should be in seperate articles. You are however, wrong that the use of safe-words etc. is universal. There is a significant segment of the D/s community that practices this without safe-words, as well as prior agreement to ignore the revocation of the initial consent, many of which think such practices should be legally sanctioned. More than a few criminal cases have started out this way, with people entering into it without giving proper consideration to what they are getting themselves into. I'd agree that the real thing is generally worse, though, as that involves an abscence of initial consent, as well as an absence of the wiring that gives consensual slaves some measure of positive experience from it. Zuiram 00:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

    --

    ALL slavery has strong sexual elements. Today MOST slavery is entirely sexual (kidnapping for prostitution, etc.) in motivation - if rape is sex that is. Historians have edited the reality, of course, but contemporary writers are often quite honest about it, e.g. ancient Greek and Roman and Indian and Chinese writers waxing on about various ways to have sex with slaves or serfs.

    I don't have too much knowledge about this, but I'm not sure if ALL slavery has STRONG sexual elements. That may be showing too much bias; what about someone who's a (literal) slave for a week, works the field the whole time? Greek and Roman slaves? Slaves in African culture? pre-'Discovery' South American cultures? Historical China and the Asian states? The very fact that writers in most time periods consider 'sex with slaves' a topic necessitating discussion might imply that the practices was all-encompassing. A thought.
    All we can go by is how much the US Confederacy, a recent slave culture, talked about it (not) versus how much they did it (in almost all families). And, of course, modern practices. But this suggests three concepts here:
    BDSM consensual slavery games
    slavery for the purposes of sexual use, e.g. modern kidnapping for prostitution
    slavery for other purposes where sex was common or permissible, e.g. almost all slave cultures

    Contents

    [edit] On STD of Japanese comfort women

    Conditions in these brothels were very harsh, and many were never kept clean. Those women who contracted STD's from the soldiers were often left to die or shot.

    [edit] Recreation and Amusement Association

    Does the RAA really count as a form of sexual slavery? AFAIK the RAA's members were ordinary prostitutes, perhaps forced into the job for economic reasons, but certainly not held there by gunpoint like the real comfort women... Jpatokal 02:15, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

    Of course, they can't reject the "work". Sometimes they must handled more than one hundred soldiers a girl in one day. If girls reject them, according to ex-mother superior of Komachi-en (biggest center), brave soldiers should resort to violence, and/or they ask it to other "amateur" women. against the girl's effort, soldiers' rapes were anywhere, so GHQ had to order Japanese press not to report them to the public.Kadzuwo 09:02, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    The key difference here is that RAA workers could stop working if they wanted, while comfort women would be killed if they tried. This is the difference between a prostitute and a sex slave. Jpatokal 09:37, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    You might like to see my comments at Talk:Recreation and Amusement Association. Andrewa 20:15, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

    I admit "orphans -> women". It's neutral, because we have not statistics.Kadzuwo 09:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

    Do you understand what "war widow" and "orphan" mean? A war widow (戦争未亡人) is a woman whose husband was killed in the war. An orphan (遺児) is a child with no parents, so you're claiming that children were getting raped by GIs! But fine, I'll keep it as "women" until I can find decent source. Jpatokal 09:37, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    I am a translator of one well-received book and many magazine articles. But I'm not good English speaker as you see. So, I use online dictionaries and help of machine translation for accurate. An online dic say orphan is not only child but also person with no relations. So, I wrote it. Anyway, ordinarily widow is not virgin. Thank you for your help m(_ _)m. Kadzuwo 10:02, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
    Dou itashimashite. Jpatokal 10:46, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] Schindler's List

    User:Cautious: Sex slave has a very specific meaning. Demanding sex as a bribe or payment is not nice, but it's not slavery by any definition of the word. Jpatokal 10:46, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

    This seems to be a bit of an 19th century urban legend/fantasy.....

    There needs to either be documentation that this is real or marked as a fantasy.

    I mean "injecting someone with opium ?????!!!!!"

    Roadrunner 16:34, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

    In the West, women and children are also abducted to be sex slaves or prostitutes in other countries where white women and children are rare. Forced abductions happen most often at airports, docks, and borders, where it is easier to smuggle the victim out of the country. The victim is often injected with opium to turn her/him into a 'zombie', reducing the victim's will to struggle or escape, and making the victim more suggestible. Once the victim is in another country where laws are less enforced, they are often plced in a training facility or 'sex farm' where they are reconditioned into a life of prostitution, sex slavery, or manual labor. Traits favorable to abductors are : a pretty face, light skin color, light eye color, light hair color. These traits fetch a higher price on the underground 'flesh market'. (See Missing Person)

    THIS IS RACIST MISSING PERSON. U ARE HITLER.

    [edit] how come the Sex Slavery Capital was removed? Israel?

    You asked: how come the Sex Slavery Capital is not posted. Israel?

    My Answer: Because you did not bother to write it.

    [edit] Sexual slavery in Nazi concentration camps in World War II

    The following "Joy division" is a hoax born in Wiky, in fact the only source of the you division is a fictional book. See article. There fore I removed the following:

    The Joy Division were groups of Jewish women in the concentration camps during World War II who were kept for the sexual pleasure of the Nazi guards, as described in Ka-tzetnik 135633's 1955 book, The House of Dolls. The Nazis also selected Polish and Ukrainian women working in forced labor and forced them into brothels.

    --Taghawi-Nejad 18:20, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    This "Joy division" is pure fictional. There were strong laws in Nazi-Germany to prevent sex between Germans and Jews.

    In the pre Civil War United States, there were equally strong laws banning sex between Africans slaves and Europeans. Such laws were broken with impunity, and large numbers of multi-ethnic descendents of every complexion live on today as the result. The Nazi laws forbidding Jewish-German sex as well as the U.S. anti-miscegenation laws were mere show. The essential immorality of such laws winked at people's actual behavior. The state only acted if it were publicly embarrassed.

    They sent young women to the front as well.

    [edit] North-American bias

    1. First off, I saw some anon had removed a rather critical part of the too-long-title entry, which I reverted. Trying in any way to "hide" the fact that during the slave era, sexual slavery was rampant in the US, is a practice worthy only of the klan. Also, I rename the section to "Sexual slavery in North America" - as that's not only the subject, but conforms better to the rest of the article.
    2. Second, why is there no reference whatsoever to Vietnam or Korean war "pleasure women" for US troops?
    3. Third, the Islam sex slavery section is seemingly undergoing some nasty POV edits from anons, I removed some weasel wordings and blatant errors, but it should be kept an eye on.--TVPR 20:55, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Modern era bias

    Why nothing on dark age slavery, or classical period slavery? We have no reason to doubt ibn Fadlan when he says that the Vikings in Russia used female slave for sex. There's a severe bias in this article towards relatively recent times, and (strangely) there's also a sort of reverse eurocentrism, dealing with Asia and the Americas, but not with Europe's past.--Peter Knutsen 15:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] sex slaves

    I think sexual slavery is a special type of slavery because a person who was abducted by someone who's intent was to use the person as a sex slave and only as a sex slave is a sex slave because this person is not forced to do manual labor or bring in a profit.

    Oh.
    As stated in the above discussion by another unsigned one, most modern slavery is sexual - this is simply because there's no need for people to slave in the fields with the advent of industry asnd machines. Now, I'll keep the Chinese "free-zones" (zones where western companies can do as they please, without government intervention) out of this, as workers are actually paid for working 16 hour days, up to 7 days a week - an immense 50c an hour - but I agree that modern slavery is most sexual only. However, in the past, "sex-slaves" were used for this purpose whenever the "owner" desired, and worked with manual labour at other times. This, at least, was often the case in North America. --TVPR 14:47, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    Have you read the up-to-date sources? There is a significant number of slaves being imported into countries such as the UK for labour; generally as servants. Google this if you're curious. Zuiram 00:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Slavery in Islam

    I think this should be changed to Sexual Slavery in Muslim countries, and not in "Islam" as that is a very POV and innacurate title. Until that title is changed, this article should be under the totally disputed template.Yuber(talk) 15:12, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

    You are, of course, correct. So rather than having an edit war over which tags we should use, I'm removing all current disputed tags, and rephrasing the Islam bit. I can't really see why I didn't notice it before, though. --TVPR 16:05, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

    All together now: One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong. . . It seems rather POV to make the breakdown of five sections of #Sexual slavery in the past temporal and geographical, while only the sixth is religious. Either #Sexual slavery in Islamic countries needs to be recast as ===Sexual slavery in the Middle East===, since that's what most of the text addresses, or else the other sections should be reworked into ===Sexual slavery in Christian countries=== and ===Sexual slavery in Buddhist and Shintoist countries===. I favor the former course of action. —Charles P. (Mirv) 21:58, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

    Mirv, Islam refers to both the islamic civilization as the religion by that name. It makes sense to have a separate section about sex slavery in islamic countries because islam was the main influencing factor here. --Germen 00:53, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
    So may I assume you're going to write up all the juicy details on sex slavery from Mali to Brunei? Zanzibar to Kazakhstan? And I note that you have avoided explaining why the breakdown of that section, and that section alone, should be by religion, when the breakdown everywhere else is by time and geography. (I think I know the answer, but I'd like to hear Germen's explanation.) —Charles P. (Mirv) 05:42, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
    Mirv, until about a century ago, all Muslim-controlled territories had a kind of modified Shari'ah or a mixture of shari'ah and local traditional laws e.g. Pashtun culture and Berber laws. For this reason it makes sense to treat sex slavery in relation to shari'ah in order to describe it. There was more similarity between slavery in e.g. the former sultanate of Tombouctou and the Moghul empire than between slavery in Tombouctou compared with slavery in neighbouring Ashanti.--Germen 17:57, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

    Germen is something of an obsessive Islamophobe (they're depressingly common at the moment). He's not interested in arguments, and will stick to his preconceived opinion in the face of any opposition. In this article, he's adding a huge amount of material, most of which has little direct relevance, and which seriously overbalances the text towards the position in Islam. Other editors should try to get through to him using reason, by all means, but be aware that in the end simply editing the article away from his prejudices is likely to be the only solution. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:24, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

    Mel Etitis, this ad-hominem attack is not according to Wikipedia and administrator standards and as an administrator you should know better. You already have been warned before after a 3RR violation and I am sorry to discover those warnings got unheeded. In order to improve my paragraph as per your suggestions, my paragraph is the best-sourced of the whole article with at least ten authoritative sources. Sexual slavery in past islamic territories was a real, historically acknowledged and well-documented phenomenon and the islamic slave trade from Africa alone was larger than the total European slave trade. The sexual component of this slave trade was notable as at Aran slave markets, female slaves fetched a much higher price than male slaves, which the exception of castrated males which were in very high demand.
    Last time you removed this paragraph because it was not well-sourced enough according to you. I added sources in order to improve it according to your ideas. So I suggest you try to study primary and secondary sources about islamic slavery before you contribute to this section in order to improve the informational quality of Wikipedia. If you are not qualified to contribute significantly to a section, you are advised to refrain from editing and choose an area in which you are more knowledgeable.
    Regarding your baseless accusations of islamophobia, I would like to refer to my viewpoint on e.g. Quran only islam. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 10:33, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
    1. It wasn't ad hominem, it was a comment on your behaviour here and elsewhere. Your vague threats and warnings are ungrounded in any policy or guideline.
    2. That female slaves were more in demand than male soes not imply that they were wanted for sexual purposes; you're speculating, and that isn't allowed. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
      1. It was ad hominem, because you are not merely commenting on my behaviour, but accusing me of being an islamophobe as well. I would have expected more sophisticated twists than this quite pathetic attempt. Here follows your quote:
    Germen is something of an obsessive Islamophobe (they're depressingly common at the moment).
      1. Check this source. [1]
    I see that Germen is intent on demonstrating the truth of the comments of mine that so annoyed him; he's simply replacing his addtions to the article without having the courtesy to respond here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:19, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
    I did respond, too bad you failed to read it.--Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 11:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
    I have restored the only salvageable section. First of all, duplicating the entire Ma Malakat Aymanukum article here is just confusing and POV since many Muslims interpret Ma Malakat Aymanukum (what one's right hand posseses) as an epithet for one's rightful spouse or fiancee. Also, there were long sections that had nothing to do with sexual slavery, and many of the claims were unsourced.Heraclius 02:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
    Heraclius, I agree that the status of slavery an ma malakat is doubted in modern islamic theology. Historically, however, the traditional approach is relevant, so I have added a reference and moved the section to Ma Malakat. I appreciate, however, the constructive way in which you try to improve the quality of Wikipedia by not deleting, but editing. I wish other Wikipedia users would heed your example. --Germen (Talk | Contribs ) 11:15, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] removed highly doubtful image

    1. eBay doesn't allow sale of human beings or parts thereof.
    2. I'm pretty sure slavery is illegal in Germany.
    3. No source was provided and I could not find anything about this. Given the furor over human trafficking in Germany, it would be very likely that such an unusual case would have some kind of media coverage, somewhere.

    I could be wrong. If this is true and can be sourced, it would make an interesting footnote to the article. —Charles P. (Mirv) 07:28, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

    Jassi was not and is not a property of me. I am the photographer of this and other photos and Jassi has signed a photomodel contract only. I hold all rights on these pictures. On eBay I sold a CD-ROM with these images only. --Raymond de 09:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Modern Day Forced Prostitution/Sexual Slavery in N. America, Europe, Asia

    I'm concerned about the section about modern day sexual slavery. Its headings currently read: 1 Modern-day sexual slavery, 1.1 Forced prostitution, 1.2 Sexual slavery in Africa, 1.3 Sexual slavery in the Middle East, and then the next section is 2 Sexual slavery in the past, 2.1 Sexual slavery in North America, etc.

    The way this reads from skimming, is that sexual slavery is a thing in Africa and the Middle East, and USED to be a problem in North America, etc. Especially when the first sentence of the North American bit is "In the mid-19th century in the U.S., there was a white slavery scare..."

    When I first read this article awhile ago, I'd thought sexual slavery was a thing of the past, and skimming this article served to reinforce that. It wasn't until I read it more thoroughly that I realized it's a modern problem, and that Westernized nations seem to be responsible for the bulk of it.

    I think the sections can be reorganized and revamped a bit, but I'm not sure of the best way to do this. For instance, we should have some consistency in the sections. Perhaps "Forced Prostitution" should be its own section, and then a bit for "Sexual slavery in North America, Europe, and Asia" could be added under "Modern-day sexual slavery". Otherwise, a quick scan makes it seem like it's only a problem in Africa and the Middle East.

    Also, I think the historical bit about North American slavery should be inverted, first talking about the reality of sexual slavery, then about the "white slavery scare". It shouldn't require a lengthy reading to learn that forced sex was a real problem for black slaves in the United States, and that fact shouldn't be depicted as less relevant than the fact that white people were scared of their wives and children being sold into sexual slavery.

    Also, can we move this picture off the talk page? It's really old news now, and distracting to the discussion. Aaronwinborn 15:54, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] info

    In Roald Dahl's book, Going Solo, he describes seeing a boat full of women while on his way to Africa. He is told that these women are being sent to Benito Mussolini to be sex slaves. Please add this into the article.

    Three points:
    • 1. Who are you? If you expect us to care about you, give us a name to call you by. That means getting a user account. (Hint: they're free)
    • 2. Why should we do it for you? Once you get your account, make your own edits. I have enough on my plate here without doing your work for you.
    • 3. On second thought, don't add it since I'd probably just remove it. Do you honestly consider Roald Dahl a reliable source on sexual slavery? I don't. Are there any specifics of the incident, or is it complete hearsay? It really doesn't sound like it's worth adding.
    Respectfully, Kasreyn 05:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] 99jonathan's claims

    It might have sounded kooky, and needs a lot more fact-checking before being put back up, but there is something to this ex-section:

    === Sexual slavery in Southeast Asia ===
    In some countries including Brunei in Southeast Asia freely import sex slaves. Some members of the ruling family partake freely of this due to their immunity from criminal charges. One high profile example of this is when 7 women, some celebrities including Miss USAs Shannon Marketic and Brandi Sherwood, others prostitutes, were flown into the country and forced into prostitution by the royal family. They were forced to do sexual acts with members of the royal family before their 5 week period expired. Shannon Marketic was forced to leave early when the Prince of Brunei determined her, after thorough testing, unfit for prostitution. She later sued the prince, but the suit was thrown out due to the prince's immunity as head of state.

    Marketic has indeed filed a lawsuit against a Los Angeles 'talent agency' and certain Brunei royals, relating to the hiring of American women for sexual purposes. -- Perey 11:58, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

    The smoking gun is not what I would consider a site qualifying as a reliable source. Can the story be sourced with a link to any other source - preferably one that isn't a salacious scandal rag? The other problem with 99jonathan's additions are their salivatingly voyeuristic tone, which is completely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Come on. "After thorough testing"??? You can practically hear him drooling as he writes it. -Kasreyn 13:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
    Oh absolutely. It's complete tripe as written. I'm just saying, there was a request for sources, so there's the results of my (let's call following three wikilinks an) "exhaustive" search. ;-) Plus, they have scans, which at least look convincing... but, let's get Google on the case. Asiaweek? CNN? No, wait, they just cite Asiaweek. -- Perey 17:21, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Sexual Slavery in the United States

    I added this new section, added some relevant information, and moved some material to the 'Forced Prostitution' section. I'm concerned about some of the wording in the 'Forced Prostitution' section, such as "However, we know these crimes are being committed world-wide by organized criminals." Maybe someone else can take a look at it, or I'll get around to it someday. -- Aaronwinborn 22:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Weasel Words

    Namely in the section: Due to the illegal nature of trafficking, the exact extent is unknown. However, we know these crimes are being committed world-wide by organized criminals. Much of this continues to happen due to meek punishments in the court systems. Many criminals accused of slave trafficking have gotten off with community service. It is also persisting, because no one is actually doing anything to stop it. In many countries it is supported rather than discontinued. I'm not disputing what it says, but it needs (a) to be rewritten in a less biased way, such as the we know these crimes..., and (b) references. It's related to the previous tag of references needed. I've tried to help, but the section needs more careful attention than I've been able to give. - Aaronwinborn 02:10, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] In 19th century England

    Christian History & Biography Issue 90, Spring 2006 has a three page article about the fight against sexual trafficking on pages 43-45. It is primarily in the form of bios of three women, Josephine Butler, Katherine Bushnell, and Florence Booth, wife of William Booth who were active in the campaign against it. But it would certainly let us start the "Europe in the past" sub-section that is completely missing. If I haven't gotten back and built that section in a couple weeks, come tap me on the shoulder. GRBerry 03:12, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Marriage

    It should be mentioned that until relatively recently marriage allowed for a woman to be a sex slave since she had no legal right to refuse sex and a husband could not be prosecuted for raping his wife. There may even still be religious groups that oppose criminalising forced sex in a marriage.

    This is main reason say nothing about sex slavery till this age. It was not sex slavery. It was normal. And now women are really free and a man can not demand any sex service even from his wife. This is main reason of growing interest to such things now I think. Qqzzccdd 18:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Sexual slavery in East

    >Sexual slavery in East and Southeast Asia during World War II When you use the word "slavery", you should prove they were forced by Japanese Government or Armed forces. Can you do this? As long as I understand any accusations about this matter are baseless. Please give us the proof! or Stop propagate the demagogy.

    >During World War II, hundreds of thousands of mostly Asian women were recruited into serving the Japanese army as prostitutes,

    >euphemistically named "comfort women," in the wartime brothels of Asia during the Japanese occupation of China, This is not unique phenomena in Japanese Army. Even The United States Army had the same system as "comfort women". But nobody can not call it "slavery",far from it. --61.209.169.202 11:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

    At least we should indicate both Korean's Recognition & Japanese's Recognition. One side propaganda is not fair.--202.239.229.7 04:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

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