Talk:Sexual abstinence

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Contents 1 Comment 1.1 Medical aspects 1.2 Abstinence and Chastity 1.3 Possible Sentence Reorganization 2 Criticism of Eloquence's additions 3 Demerging chastity 4 Proposed Infobox for individual birth control method articles 5 Contradictory introduction 6 "pregnancy rate" rather than "failure rate" 7 Medical aspects of abstinence for men 8 References 9 Involuntary Sexual abstinence

[edit] Comment

Someone probably needs to rv POV changes from Thatguythere. Some of the changes may be quite valid, others are clearly POV. --Yamla 00:18, 2004 Dec 24 (UTC)

• talk:chastity - talk for material from chastity article, now merged.

I have removed the following paragraph:

[edit] Medical aspects

The venereal diseases are diseases which are so hard to catch that they require the most intimate sexual contact to transmit. Gonorrhea and syphilis are two sexually transmitted diseases which sexual abstinence or married faithfulness keep people from catching. Thus, some public health advocates encourage abstinence on medical grounds. Abstinence until marriage, combined with fidelity thereafter, has been shown to have a negligible infection rate for HIV and other STDs.

Given that existing research shows that abstinence "education" accomplishes the exact opposite, namely that teens know nothing about disease and pregnancy prevention when the inevitable happens (see also sex education), I find this paragraph with an utter lack of supporting evidence unconvincing. If you examine only juveniles who are abstinent, you will find fewer sexual diseases - duh! The question is whether abstinence "education" works, and the research so far shows that it does not. --Eloquence 23:29 24 May 2003 (UTC)

Ok, first I'd like to say that I'm twenty and I'm just interested medically if my "lack of sex" in my life leads to something bad. I've just lost my virginity a couple of months ago. I have had a couple of relationships and I haven't had much sex. What I'd like to know is if any physiological "problems" will appear? Just that. I have rarely had sex, I don't masturbate at all. It's not something psychological - I don't care much about that. It's just a concurrence of circumstances that I don't have sex. I just don't think about it. But anyways, I just want to know what physiological "problems" if any can occur. That's what I want to know. If anyone would be so good to explain it - I will be happy and thankful. Thanks very much. Painbearer 22:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

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I question saying that minors are expected to refrain from sexual intercouse until marriage. If abstinence until marriage is the standard, it hardly has any application to minority. --Daniel C. Boyer 21:45, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

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[edit] Abstinence and Chastity

From 1st paragraph:

There is a distinction between the terms abstinence and chastity, the latter more frequently implying the application of force or the existence of rules.

What does the application of force have to do with chastity? Are you talking about chastity belts? No one wears these outside of porno novels, I think...

And what does the existence of rules have to do with the distinction?

AFAIK, the words 'abstinence' and 'chastity' are synonyms.

The only distinction I'm aware of, having to do with sexual activity or its absence, is that between (a) restricting one's sexual activities according to a set of rules and (b) not following much of any restrictions at all.

Okay, maybe there's one other distinction within (a):

1. having sex only with one's spouse (for married, male-female couples)
2. not having sex at all, like adults who don't get married; and

I guess this gives us (A1) fidelity within marriage, (A2) celibacy, and (B) unrestricted sexual activity.

Note: I am not urging that the Wikipedia endorse any POV; nor am I suggesting any major change to the articles. I'm just trying to understand (and possibly straighten out) the terminology.

Comments? --Uncle Ed 18:42, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

yo, ed. Chastity is enforced. Look at extreme orthadox islam. What would happen to an "easy" girl there? Chastity is when you are forced into the situation. Like if I tell my daughter "I will KILL you if you mess around" and she knows I mean business. Abstinance is where she is just really pious and non-slutty and decides to save it for marraige. What interests me is where do you draw the line? Is oral sex against abstinance? What about anal? Or mastrabation? Just what is allowed? Is kissing ok? What about french? ;) JackLynch 18:57, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

First things first, Jack. You're saying that in some Islamic countries, parents or others FORCE women into chastity. Accordingly, you distinguish between forced and voluntary abstinence. I guess you want to call abstinence voluntary and chastity forced. Am I reading you right? --Uncle Ed 19:10, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

yes. now answer my questions please ;) JackLynch 19:15, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

There is no practial difference between chastity and abstinence. You can force someone into abstinence; that doesn't make it chastity (probably less so since chastity is traditionally a virtue, being forced into something doesn't carry much virtue). DJ Clayworth 19:17, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sure it does. besides, I think your getting a little too philosophical here. If you look it up, Chastity is the state of being pure, and abstinance is the act of refraining. If I don't allow you to soil yourself, you are still pure. But you havn't necessarilly refrained. There is a distinction. JackLynch 19:27, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Actually on a closer check I find that there is a difference in usage. The main difference is that chastity can sometimes be used to describe someone who refrains from immoral (or illegal) sexual relations. Thus a husband can sometimes be described as 'chaste' if he has sex only with his wife. DJ Clayworth 19:17, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think your distinction is far too subtle for this article. It's kind of like, if I'm in prison, have I abstained from going outside? DJ Clayworth 19:36, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The words abstinence, chastity and celibacy are disambiguated at Wikipedia:Terms for avoiding sexual intercourse. Perhaps the definitions there can help us decide what information belongs at celibacy and chastity.

It seems to me, that abstinence means "refraining" from sex voluntarily, especially for reasons other than morality, religion, or fear of being murdered by an extremist.

Celibacy would then be either a profession (like nuns, monks or priests) required by one's religion and adopted voluntarily -- or a temporary period, say when husband and wife remain faithful to each other during a prolonged separation.

Chastity, if I may go on further, would mean following laws or rules about sexual activity. It could be either voluntary (a "moral virtue" or "ideal") or enforced by fear of punishment (like the Islamic extremists).

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Chastity is definitely about sexual rules, force and moral code, whereas abstinence is a more neutral term that simply describes a specific type of behavior (note that there is also "alcohol abstinence", but not "alcohol chastitiy"). And yes, chastity belts are worn outside porn novels, especially in the BDSM community (which is essentially a playful leftover of the very real sexual repression of earlier ages).—Eloquence 21:30, Dec 2, 2003 (UTC)

I agree w Eloquence, and whoever that was above them that didn't sign JackLynch 23:03, 2 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue about it but at least for christians (and I guess it is generally accepted to be so)

• Chastity means the use of sex under some ethical rules -i.e. in marriage, etc...- (this is just a simple way of stating it).
• Sexual abstinence means not using sex.
• As way of example a single person would not be catholically chaste if (s)he used sex, while a married person having sex with his/her wife/husband is perfectly chaste.

At least for catholics, married people using sex can be chaste... I really feel that "chastity" redirecting to "sexual abstinence" is a complete misunderstanding of the terms. I really really feel that someone has a wrong concept here. But then again, I am not going to argue over this (it's so clear to me). I'll just shut up.Pfortuny 17:23, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I would argue that yes there are obviously differences in implication and POV between the two terms, but that they are so similar as to not warrant seperate articles. Neither "sexual abstinence" nor "chastity" require complete abstinence in all situations - they may both be context-dependant. Martin 17:38, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Sentence Reorganization

Without trying to be politically correct, the phrase ". . . [monks and nuns in] Christianity, and priests in the Roman Catholic Church." may imply the perception that the Roman Catholic Church is not Christian. However, I suppose that on one hand you might annoy Catholics for the implication that they are not Christian, but on the other hand you may annoy some fundamentalists by implying that they are Christian. I will not get into the debate, but it might be something to think about.

[edit] Criticism of Eloquence's additions

I removed the following:

Health writer Michael Castleman argued in Salon.com: "When it comes to teens and sex, liberals and conservatives have very similar core values. Neither of their approaches to sex education makes sense (though the liberal view is a tad more realistic). And neither of their programs does much except create fear of sex." [1] He proposed teaching teenagers to enjoy oral sex and mutual masturbation would be safe while helping them to become better lovers.

This is extremely biased option by a relatively unknown guy with no academic credentials. The quote is basically an unsubstantiated accusation of everybody but the author himself in stupidity. His proposals are completely irrelevant to this particular article. There is no reason to include this info here.

Also removed:

Even if teens make it into adulthood without having sex or getting pregnant, these critics argue, they may not know how to prevent having babies, or how to become pregnant when they want to, and they may suffer from sexual immaturity and shame.

Even if SIECUS says this, it's still a bunch of crap. There is nothing wrong with providing criticism of abstinence-only programs in this article, but adding bullshit like this is just plain wrong.

First, abstinence-only programs do not necessarily require that no information about birth control is given at all (although particular programs may be as extremistic in this as they like). Second, it is idiotic to assume that teens would not get this information (even though not in a well-structured, 100% correct and easy to understand form) elsewhere. Third, I've never read about humans losing all capability to learn new things after their 18th birthday. Most young adults should have no problem finding this information extremely easily. So this sentence was misleading, wrong and just stupid FUD. Removed.

Disclosure: I am against abstinence-only programs, I am for recreational sex among teens and children, I am for better access to contraceptives and abortion, I am for sexual freedoms, but I am very much against adding biased FUD to Wikipedia. BTW, I also chose abstinence as a lifestyle for myself. Paranoid 14:00, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Quick response: Whether you think something is "misleading, wrong and just stupid FUD" is not particularly relevant when it is an opinion held by an organization which is absolutely relevant to the topic at hand. Please read up on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy before removing text which you disagree with. More later.--11:39, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Whether I disagree with the text has nothing to do with its removal (especially since I do agree that teaching kids masturbation and oral sex may have some benefits). In this particular case there is a combination of three factors. First, the quoted statement is certainly of low quality. Second, the author doesn't appear to be very notable and the opinion is not very widespread (nor is shared by any prominent group). Third, it's juvenile. An analogy would be an addition of "The Pope is a moron" to an article about Roman Pope. Even if some journalist said it, it probably shouldn't be included. Paranoid 18:00, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Demerging chastity

It is particularly offensive to me that chastity subordinated to sexual abstinence as an encyclopedic topic. Chastity is an ethical virtue. I am chaste. I am married. That means (for) I have successfully integrated my sexuality within my system of ethics (which, in this case derives from my spirituality). It has nothing (for me) to do with not having sex.

Associating chastity exclusively with sexual abstinence expresses a very narrow point-of-view. Although this article does discuss other aspects of chastity, these are outside the scope of sexual abstinence and should not be in this article.

I have written a very NPOV article on chastity - it still needs much more work. But please, keep the topics separated. Sexual abstinence is a mechanism of chastity, not chastity itself. Chastity is the application of a system of ethics or spirituality to human sexuality. For an example of such a system, see here [2]. --Mm35173 15:28, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Infobox for individual birth control method articles

Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictory introduction

The introduction defines abstinence as "the practice of voluntarily refraining from sexual activity". But just a few lines donw, it cites the "lack of suitable partners" as a possible reason. I don't think that would count as voluntary. Unmitigated Success 09:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "pregnancy rate" rather than "failure rate"

Note discussion at Talk:Birth control#"pregnancy rate" rather than "failure rate" re replacing occurrences of "failure rate" with "pregnancy rate". I would also like to see the same change on this page. Please make any comments there. --Coppertwig 04:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medical aspects of abstinence for men

I didn't fully understand, is sexual abstinence medically bad or good for man's health. Does the lack of masturbation reflects on man's body in a bad way? Is it bad for my body that I am not having sex? It is a powerful urge and it is difficult trying not to think about it, but does the constant lack of semen ejaculation leads to something bad for my body. I know that sex is overall good for human's body. But is the lack of thereof, something bad? I would like to see more definitive explanation about that.

Regards: Painbearer 00:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There was a study done that concluded that men who masturbate more in their 20s have a lesser risk of prostate cancer...http://cancervic.org.au/cancer1/whatsnew/mediareleases/2003/20030717.htmAbitw 05:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Can we find some neutral references? These are kind of shady and one-sided. Also, the whole article isn't that well cited. 72.150.62.175 23:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

these two paragraphs (distributive) were removed due to lack of citation.

Proponents of abstinence^{Please name specific person or group} often reply to this claim by stating that there is a difference between repression and transformation of the sex urge^{[citation needed]}. They agree that repression, especially when involuntary, is not effective and may indeed lead to numerous psychological problems. They say that the sex energy should not be repressed but slowly transformed and purified. This must be a voluntary process and in order for it to be truly effective, must include abstinence from sexual thoughts as well as actions. Otherwise, the organism faces the stress of being excited by desire and at the same time prevented from fulfilling that desire. This is what may lead to an increase in aggression^{[citation needed]}, although the human body uses mechanisms to relieve this arousal, such as nocturnal emission.

==Abstinence in therapy==

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Abstinence from sexual activity often results in an obvious build-up of hormones, correlated with a feeling of well-being. Testosterone and estrogen, two primary sex hormones that build up during abstinence, are related to other antidepressant neurochemistry such as serotonin and endorphins. While orgasm releases endorphins in short-term secretion, abstaining for more lengthy periods of time produces a more lasting feeling of what sometimes may be described as euphoria, and, according to many partners, better marital sex. Abstinence has been reported by some as a natural antidepressant.

Bob A 08:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Involuntary Sexual abstinence

I think there should be a section on Involuntary Sexual abstinence, ie can't get none for various reasons other than reliogipus and moral beliefs. 75.15.178.185 02:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)