Talk:Severus Snape
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Harry Potter, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to J. K. Rowling's Harry Potter universe. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. | ||||||
|
|||||||
 |
This article is part of WikiProject Novels, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to narrative novels, novellas, novelettes and short stories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit one of the articles mentioned below, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and contribute to the General Project Discussion to talk over new ideas and suggestions. | ||
| B | This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. | ||
| Mid | This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale. | ||
|
Article Grading: |
|||
|
Tasks you can do:
|
|||
 Archives |
|---|
Contents |
[edit] Bullying
Draco and Dudley both act as good comparisons. Malfoy is not a physical bully towards Harry - he taunts him verbally (and quite wittily at times), and he retaliates to Harry's words or actions with violence, but the only time I can think of him physically doing anything without provokation was the nose-breaking: which, in any case, was due to Harry thanks to his disproportionate attack on Malfoy at the end of the previous two years. The only example when he behaved like Sirius and co. was to Neville, when he leg-locked him 'because he wanted to try it out'. He does not behave towards Harry as James and Sirius behave towards Snape i.e. physical bullying, doing so simply because they feel like it, or are bored, or for the hell of it. That is what Dudley does (Dudley did go to primary school with Harry). Michaelsanders 00:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- And 'good and bad'? Snape, James and Sirius have all been portrayed as ambiguous. Draco redeemed himself, partly, by not killing Dumbledore. Dudley is not wholly bad either, merely a petty thug. And Harry is not wholly good, either. Don't look at things in such a crude moralistic attitude when the subject doesn't call for it. Michaelsanders 00:32, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
::The good vs. bad thing is simple thing you are apparently too dense to grasp so I'll leave it. I see you point with Malfoy. He's not bullying out of boredom or for fun, he dislikes Harry and everything he stands for. John Reaves 00:55, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
-
-
- Why don't we just delete it? It's a pretty poor and broad comparison anyway. John Reaves 00:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Not exactly sure exactly which part of the article you are talking about, since you don't say. However, I assume it is the comparison of the marauders bullying Snape to the difficulties Harry has with Dudley and Malfoy. This is a necessary comparison, which Harry thinks of himself in the story, and which it is plainly intended for the reader to also see. The stories contain many comparisons between James and Harry's generations, where something from one generation is echoed in another. Not necessarily exactly, but it is part of how the books are structured and in itself ought to be commented on in some article. I don't know if it is? But it is directly relevent to this point in the plot. in order of telling the story, it was the other way about. James had the image of A hero, and Snape a villain. Then Harry sees them in essentially the opposite roles, and starts comparing James' behaviour to Dudley and Malfoy, who have caused him trouble. Sandpiper 21:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
- Why don't we just delete it? It's a pretty poor and broad comparison anyway. John Reaves 00:56, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
-
[edit] Loyalty
Someone is trying to alter the reference to Snape in the Double Agent section of List of characters in Harry Potter, to remove the reference to him being a Double Agent after 1997. Are they right in doing this? Michaelsanders 16:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
- Until the Seventh Book comes out, we do not know Snape's status other than the fact that he fled Hogwarts with Malfoy and some Death Eaters. Whether he was or will be working for Voldemort, or himself, or Dumbledore "after 1997" (that is, years 6 and 7) is not finalized. In Book 6, and right up to the end, Dumbledore had high confidence that Snape was working for him, spying on Voldemort and the Death Eaters. To varying degrees, Voldemort and the Death Eaters had confidence that Snape was working for/with them, spying on Dumbledore and Potter (etc.). We do not know for certain which side he was or is now working for, but the published works (to date) would seem to have us believe that Snape is loyal to the Dark side. If we assume that, and in Book 7 Snape abandons all attempts to regain the confidence of Potter and/or Hogwarts, the Ministry, or the Order, then one could conclude that Snape was a Double Agent, and is now simply loyal to the Dark Lord. On the other hand, if we assume that the murder of Dumbledore and the flight from Hogwarts was "just part of the show" to deepen his cover and solidify his standing with the Death Eaters and Voldemort, and that in fact he remains loyal to the Order, then he continues to be a double agent. Either way, it is speculation and possibly false information to take a firm encyclopedic position on what he "truly" was at the end of Book 6, and what he might turn out to be in Book 7. Therefore, all we can comment on is what Rowling said he was in books 1-6, and then say his status in Book 7 is unknown. For that matter, we cannot really say what ANYONE's status will be in Book 7 until it comes out. Rowling may have a terrific web of deceitful plot twists. For all we know, Hermione might be a spy, and end up turning her wand on someone unexpected. The point is, we cannot and should not state more than what we were told in Books 1-6, avoiding drawing any conclusions or making inferences, and just point out that at the end of Book 6, Snape and Malfoy left and their fates and purposes are unknown, but will be revealed in Book 7 (maybe). --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 17:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think you are getting a bit carried away with all that. Don't I remember already having this argument at great length, only someone has archived it? It is not true to say that Rowling has written him as evil through and through. That is a superficial reading of the book, and certainly not what it said in the book I read. My initial reaction was that confusion reigns as to what happened in book 6, and I think that is precisely what Rowling intended. My considered reaction is that Snape's loyalties are clear if the books are read carefully. However, there is sufficient room for doubt such that a credible final book could be written either way. I think it is plain from the books that Snape is a double agent. He must be betraying at least one side since they both believe he is one of theirs. Now, the argument about whether he is a 'traitor' is more complicated since traditionally the term 'traitor' means someone really on the baddies side, and that is where the doubt arises. Sandpiper 18:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed with Sandpiper: it's quite clear that Snape is a double agent for someone. Who he is acting as a double agent for is still not known with any certainty until the matter is finally resolved in Book 7 (like most readers, I have my own theories based on reading the books, and mine are irrelevant and not notable). Also agreed that the term "traitor" is a tough one to decide on. If he was, for example, originally loyal to Dumbledore, then eventually betrayed him, he can be called a traitor. If, however, he was loyal to Voldemort this entire time, and pretended to be loyal to Dumbledore only to eventually kill him, was the most loyal person one could ever imagine... traitor is a term based on POV. One side's traitor is another side's patriot. One could use the verb (betray), but the noun form (traitor) is difficult to apply without betraying the POV of the article. --Deathphoenix ʕ 21:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Opening Picture
Is there any reason we changed the infobox picture? Frankly I'm not too keen on a pic dominated by a grossly enlarged hand.Sandpiper 23:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- It was probably changed because the current one is newer. I think I preferred the old one (I'm not sure I remember what it looked like). I'll go look around and see if it's better. John Reaves (talk) 23:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Well, never mind, it's been deleted. John Reaves (talk) 23:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I noticed it had gone. It was a film shot so it could easily be put back. Fair use images get auto deleted if no one is using them. It was a similar head, though the colour was better and it was closer up, and no hand waving about in the foreground. Sandpiper 14:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] On expulsion
The Loyalty section says that, when Harry performed the Sectusempra curse on Malfoy that Snape did not expel him, however in the Chamber of Secrets doesn't it say that only the headmaster or the head of house can expel people? Pyreforge 02:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Remaining ambiguities
The article may not fully reflect the degree to which Snape's role in the series remains unknown for now -- especially beyond the question of whether the character is good, evil, or some combination. For example, Snape arrived outside the room in which the book's key prophecy was revealed, just as Dumbledore heard, "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." Is Snape's date of birth confirmed? When Snape murders Dumbledore, could he have created a Horcrux? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.34.124.95 (talk • contribs).
- Well, the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a fan forum or blog site, so is not the place for speculating about possibilities and presenting theories or original research about such things. Wikipedia is restricted to posting verifiable facts from reliable sources, thus if Ms Rowling did not state it or suggest it in one of the books, or in an a documented published interview, or on her web site, or perhaps in a HP movie, then it is just more speculation. That said, Rowling has discussed Horcruxes, in the books and a few interviews and on her web site, and it is clear that while the soul is "split" when a murder happens, a Horcrux is not created unless there is a special additional magical action performed. Horcruxes are not automatically created "by accident" whenever someone is killed. In any case, why would you think Snape needed a Horcrux - it was the Dark Lord who is attempting to achieve immortality through Horcruxes. Nevermind - just wait till July 21 and we'll find out together. To your original point, I think the main article discusses Snape's ambiguous loyalty and questionable motives and odd relationships with Harry, Dumbledore, the Dark Lord, and the Death Eaters quite thoroughly. Did you read it through? Now, if you do feel that an important point about Snape was missed (or perhaps improperly deleted by another editor) then please feel free to add it into an appropriate section of the main article, and we'll review it for validity. We need your help to improve the HP articles, so if something was missed, let's get it on the table. As long as it meets the requirements for notability, verifiability, and neutrality, then we have no problem with you adding your thoughts - that is what we are all about here. Be bold! --T-dot (Talk | contribs) 09:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Good points. I'll do some thinking on this.
