Talk:Seventeen Provinces
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Ack, the horror of articles start in 2002 by anon users. I fear this is still terribly garbled. Will have to make improving it a project - I've made a start, I think. john k 06:03, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Number Seventeen
Does anybody know if the "Seventeen Provinces" were actually a term used at the time, or if it was made up later? Because when actually looking at the map, it's hard to figure out exactly how you come to a number of seventeen. Areas which could potentially be counted are:
- Holland
- Zealand
- Utrecht
- Groningen
- Friesland
- Overyssel
- Drenthe (not counted?)
- Gelderland
- Brabant
- Flanders
- Mechelen
- Walloon Flanders
- Douai
- Tournai
- Artois
- Cambrai (which, I think, doesn't count, because it was a bishopric)
- Luxembourg
- Namur
- Hainaut
- Limburg
- Antwerp
I I'm not mistaken, that comes out to 21 provinces. I know that Cambrai was a bishopric and that Drenthe isn't counted as one of the seven provinces of the United Provinces, so I suppose that brings us down to 19. But which two of the remaining ones go? I feel as though I've never even seen a map which shows exactly seventeen provinces - many show less, and some show more, and even the ones that can be jiggered to show seventeen don't always agree with each other - Antwerp, for instance, is occasionally shown as separate from Brabant, and sometimes as part of it. Walloon Flanders and Tournai are sometimes part of Flanders, sometimes separate. Douai I've only seen shown as separate on rare occasions... does anyone know? john k 21:20, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- It's hard to say what the 17 Provinces were. I haven't come across a clean list yet. The problem resides in the fact that there were Provinces and City states. ---moyogo
The status in 1555, according to a website of Leiden university:
- het hertogdom Brabant
- het hertogdom Limburg, met de landen van Overmaze
- het hertogdom Luxemburg
- het hertogdom Gelder met Zutphen
- het graafschap Vlaanderen
- het graafschap Artois
- het graafschap Henegouwen
- het graafschap Holland
- het graafschap Zeeland
- het graafschap Namen
- de steden en kasselrijen van Rijsel, Douai en Orchies
- de stad Doornik en het Doornikse
- de heerlijkheid Mechelen
- de heerlijkheid Friesland
- de heerlijkheid Utrecht
- de heerlijkheid Overijssel met Drente
- de heerlijkheid Groningen.
This list equals the one on nl:Zeventien Provinciën. Provinces that are in the present list, but not in the Dutch one are: Zutphen (belongs to Guelders) and Antwerp (belongs to Brabant). Missing provinces are Lille/Douai/Orchies and Tournai (Doornik). I'll correct the list accordingly. Markussep 11:50, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to remark that the number of seventeen provinces is probably symbolic (as in sounding better than 16 or 18 provinces). I know that various lists exist that give the names of the 17 provinces, but those are recent trys to justify the number, rather than a historically correct list. The most probabale explanation is that is was somehow based on the number of titles that Karel V posseses (wich was continually growing). About Antwerp: Antwerp and Mechelen were both taken from the duchy Brabant because of the disputed sucession of Jan III in 1355, his oldest daughter succeeded him, but a younger daughter was married to the count of Flanders and was given these two cities as "heerlijkheden".
Why don't we use the Dutch wikipedia/University of Leiden version listed above? This would involve removing Drenthe and Zutphen and adding Tournai and Walloon Flanders (i.e. Lille/Douai/Orchies). What do people think? john k 23:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
