Talk:Serbian Campaign (World War I)

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[edit] Losses in 1914

Austria-Hungary: 227,000

Serbia: 70,000

Source: Spencer C. Tucker, The Great War 1914-1918, p. 49.

Nope, true numbers for losses (roughly) A-H: 260.000 Ser:170.000 Source:Savo Skoko&Petar Opacic "Vojvoda Stepa Stepanovic" Austro Hungarian force against Serbia in 1914 mostly numbered just over 200.000 and was at no time over 250.000 strong. Exception to this is perhaps the very first weeks of the war when the AH. 2nd army was in the area, before being sent to Gallicia against the Russians, but only 3 of it`s divisions (4.th corps) saw action against the Serbs during the battle of Cer. The A-H 6. th army wasn`t engaged due to bad plan, so the numerical advantage over the Serbs was hardly felt at all. Perhaps if all troops rotated through the theatre+reinforcements were counted it would ammount to 450.000 troops.

Veljko Stevanovich 30. 4. 2006. 21:07 UTC+1

Yes, B Staffel = 2nd AH army. Unfortenutely, I have only the mentioned (Serbian) source and it is possible that AH casaulties are inflated (270.000 vs 227 000), but that doesn`t have to be the case. However the Serbs certainly suffered far more than 70.000. Even the sources you stated say 170.000, and that matches my source. So, I`ll correct the number.

You did a great work writting this article.

Only, I`ll have to disagree with the statement that the fighting after 1916. was "senseless". If the Allies withdrew their forces, the consequences would most probably be:

1. The Allies would be 140.000 Serbian soldiers short in their wer effort. (bear in mind that the Serbian army was arguably the most battle-experianced army at the time having been in almost constant warfare since 1912) And also there wouldn`t be any of the 30.000 Serbian volounteers from Russia, the US and other countries (emigrants and former POWs of Serbian, Croat or Slovenian descent from AH-army).

2. Bulgarian army of at the very least 300.000 would be free to help the Central powers elsewhere. Also count in the AH and Ger contigents

3. Romania would perhaps stay neutral.

4. Greece would almost certainly not wage war against the Central Powers (still 150.000 soldiers less for the Entente), and perhaps even joined the CPs (though this is less likely)

5. The same source claims that the post-war comission of the German high command established to find the causes of the German defeat concluded that the capitulation of Bulgaria was the real reason for the defeat (the forces on the western front had better chances to stop the Allied offensive than the Balkan forces had to stop the Salonika breakthrough after the Bulg. capitulation). The source has "Der Weltkrieg" in it`s bibliography. Have you found confirmation of this claim?

And, would the 14 Allied divisions really make such a big differance in the meatgrinder of the western front?

PS Why is the 1916. section disputed?

Veljko Stevanovich 14. 5. 2006. 02:00 UTC+1

And another thing - Bulgarian army attacked Serbia in 1915. with two armies: 1.st army - across the pre 1912 (roughly current) Serbo-Bulgarian border, 2. nd through Macedonia. The first army was completely stopped by the Serbian 2.nd army commanded by voyvoda Stepa Stepanovic. Only the Bulgarian 2.nd army broke through the Serbian "Trupe novih oblasti" (ser:Troops of new areas - troops of lesser quallity that defended Macedonia and other areas taken from the Turks in the First Balkan War). This Bulgarian brakethrough proved to be decisive since it cut the railroad to Salonika which used to bring supplies to the Serbian army. This section of the front was left so inadequately guarded since it was agreed with the Allied expeditionary army that they should defend it, but they were unable to do so because of long delays in shipping the troops to Salonika.

Veljko Stevanovich 15. 5. 2006. 22:15 UTC+1

[edit] Not out of Keeping?

Could someone explain what is meant by the following sentence, in particular by the "not out of keeping..." part: the first phase of the war against Serbia had ended with no change in the border but the casualties were incredible compared to earlier wars, though sadly, not out of keeping with other campaigns of this war." As such, the sentence doesn't make much sense and I strongly reccomend rewording it. I would do it myself, but do not want to tamper with the original meaning.--Bora Nesic 12:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with the article

Heh, there's the word "stupidly" in this article - it's not encyclopedic. :) Also, the article lacks the mention of Montenegro. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

WARNING! CASUALTY LIST WAS VANDALISED! A-H LOST MORE THAN 215.000 MEN IN 1914. ALONE! SERBIAN ARMY LOST NEARLY 170.000 IN THE SAME PERIOD!

[edit] I Agree

The "stupidly" thing did strike me as a bit overly editorial.

[edit] The Battle of Doiran, narrated by a eyewitness

At the beginning of 1918, the Allied troops in Salonika were prepared for a major offensive intended to end the war in the Balkans. The Greek Army had been reorganised and joined the Allied force. The offensive began in July 1918, but the British contingent did not play a significant part until early September. Then the British attacked a series of fortified hills. The final assault began along the whole front on 15 Sep 1918; the British being engaged in the Lake Doiran area. This Battle was really on the 18th and 19th September 1918 and was a disaster for the British Divisions. They had to frontally assault 'Pip Ridge' which was a 2000 foot high heavily defended mountain ridge with fortresses built on some of the higher mountains, notably Grand Couronne. (This was what the Bulgarians had been working on in the first months of 1916 and early 1917.) They sustained very heavy casualties.

The following report from one involved gives some idea of what the men went through. By 'An Unprofessional Soldier' on the Staff of 28th Division. He entitled his paper: "I saw the Futile Massacre at Doiran". It is from Issue 46 of "I Was There" published 1938/9 "The Battle of Doiran is now a forgotten episode of the Great War, overshadowed by the doings of Haig in France and Allenby in Palestine. There was no full contemporary account of the Battle in any British Newspaper. Sir George Milne's dispatch was not published and did not appear in the Times until January 23rd 1919, and then only in truncated form. The very name of the battle is unknown to most. Yet, in singularity of horror and in tragedy of defeated heroism, it is unique among the records of British arms. The real work of the assault was entrusted to the men of the 22nd and 26th Divisions, who were to attack the Doiran hills, co-operating with the Cretan Division of the Greek Army and a regiment of unreliable Zouaves. In the early light of an almost unclouded morning the British and Greek forces advanced in order of battle. The noise of our guns had abruptly ceased before daybreak, and there came that awful pause in which defenders and attackers are braced up to face the ordeal, with fear or desperation, with cool courage or with blazing ardour. Slowly the pale grey smoke lifted in layers of thin film above the ridges, blue shadows deep in every fold or hollow and a dim golden glow on scrub, rock and heather. No one could tell what had been the effect of our gunfire upon those fortified hills.

The infantry soldier relies upon the guns behind him, trusting in their power to smash a way for his advance by killing or demoralizing the enemy and cutting up his defences. In this case, if he had any hopes or illusions, the infantry soldier was quickly un-deceived. Our attack on ' Pip Ridge' was led by 12th Cheshires. The battle opened with a crash of machine-gun fire, and a cloud of dusty smoke began to blur the outline of the hills, Almost immediately the advancing battalion was overwhelmed in a deadly steam of bullets which came whipping and whistling down the open slopes. Those who survived were followed by a battalion of Lancashire men, and a remnant of this undaunted infantry fought its way over the first and second lines of trenches - if indeed the term " line " can be applied to a highly complicated and irregular system of defence, taking full advantage of every fold or contortion of the ground. In its turn, a Shropshire battalion ascended the fatal ridge. By this time the battle of the " Pips" was a mere confusion of massacre, noise and futile bravery. Nearly all the men of the first two battalions were lying dead or wounded on the hillside. Colonel Clegg and Colonel Bishop were killed; the few surviving troops were toiling and fighting in what appeared to be inevitable and immediate death. The attack was ending in a bloody disaster. No orders could reach the isolated cluster of men who were still trying to advance on the ridge. Contact aeroplanes came roaring down through the yellow haze of dust and smoke, hardly able to see what was going on, and even flying below the levels of the Ridge and Grand Couronne.

There was only one possible ending to the assault. Our troops in the military phrase of their commander, " fell back to their original positions" Of this falling back I will say nothing. There are times when even desperate heroism has to acknowledge defeat. While the 60th Brigade was thus repulsed on the ridge, a Greek regiment was thrown into disorder by a counter attack on the right. At the same time the Welsh Brigade was advancing towards Grand Couronne. No feat of arms can ever surpass the glorious bravery of those Welshmen. There was lingering gas in the Jumeaux Ravine ( probably ours!) and some of the men had to fight in respirators. Imagine, if you can, what it means to fight up a hillside under a deadly fire, wearing a hot mask over your face, dimly staring through a pair of clouded goggles, and sucking the end of a rubber nozzle in your mouth. At the same time heat is pouring down on you from a brazen sky. In this plight you are called on to endure the blast of machine-gun fire, the pointed steel or bursting shell of the enemy. Nor are you called on to endure alone ; you must vigorously fire back, and vigorously assail with your own bayonet. It is as much like hell as anything you can think of. Welsh Fusiliers got as far as the Hilt, only half a mile below the central fortress, before being driven back by a fierce Bulgarian charge. Every officer was killed or wounded. Following these came the 11th Welsh, who were also compelled to retire fighting. For a time, however, a few of the enemy's trenches, full of dead or dying men, remained in our possession. A third Welsh battalion was offered up, to perish, on that awful day. The 7th South Wales Borderers nobly stormed up through the haze of battle until they had come near the hills of The Tassel and The Knot, Then, all at once, the haze lifted, and they were left exposed in the open to a sweeping and overwhelming fire. Melting away as they charged, a party of Welshmen ran up the slopes of Grand Couronne itself and fell dead among the rocks. Of the whole battalion, only one officer and eighteen men were alive at the end of the day. All night, unheard in the tumult of a new bombardment, wounded men were crying on the hillsides or down in the long ravines.

Whatever Sir George Milne now thought of his own plans, he must have been gratified by the behaviour of his own troops. Those troops had been flung against positions no infantry in the world could ever have taken by a frontal attack, and they had proved themselves to be good soldiers. Two entire Brigades had been practically annihilated. Only on the right was there a temporary gain of ground by two Hellenic regiments in the neighbourhood of Doiran Town. My own troops (if I may speak of 28th Division) were in support of the Cretans under the Krusha hills east of the Lake. These people were intended to make a " surprise " attack on the high positions to the north, though I do not see how anyone can be surprised by an attack which has to be launched over three or four miles of perfectly open country - unless he is surprised at the futility of such a thing. The Cretans had lined up during the night along a railway embankment, which is immediately below the hills. At dawn they advanced over the plain of Akindzali, breaking through the enemy's outpost line. Our artillery, owing to a failure in co-ordination, did not properly support the advance, and our guns were eventually withdrawn under a heavy Bulgarian fire. There were casualties in the neighbourhood of Akindzali village (the scene of unmentionable Greek atrocities in the war of 1913). The attack rapidly collapsed, and by evening the Cretans were back at the railway line from which they had started. At nightfall the 28th Division took up a purely defensive attitude, overlooking the plain. It may well be asked why this Division was never given the chance of throwing its full weight into the battle. The enemy himself, as we afterwards learnt, was very much astonished by the absence or concealment of so large a body of troops. One of the first questions put to a captured British airman near Petrich was "can you tell us what has become of your 28th Division?" A fresh and equally futile massacre on the Doiran hills was arranged for the following day, in spite of the total breakdown of the general scheme. It was now the turn of the Scotsmen - Fusiliers, Rifles and Highlanders of the 77th Brigade, undismayed by the dreadful evidence of havoc, ran forward among the Welsh and Bulgarian dead. Artillery demoralised the regiment of Zouaves on their left. A storm of machine-gun fire blew away the Greeks on their right, in uncontrolled disorder. Fighting on into a maze of enemy entanglements, the Scotsmen were being annihilated, their flanks withering under a terrible enfilade. A fine battalion of East Lancashires attempted to move up in support.

The 65th Brigade launched another forlorn attack on the Pip Ridge. The broken remains of two Brigades were presently in retreat, leaving behind more than half their number, killed, wounded or missing. We had now sustained 3,871 casualties in the Doiran battle. Our troops were incapable of any further effort. A terrible high proportion had been lost or disabled. We gained only the unimportant ruins of Doiran Town and a cluster of small hills immediately above it, never of any value to the enemy or strongly defended. The fortress of Grand Couronne was unshaken, with crumpled bodies of men and a litter of awful wreckage below it. No one can view the result of the operation as anything but a tactical defeat. Had it been an isolated engagement, there would have been every prospect of disaster. The whole plan of the battle and its conduct are open to devastating criticism; but so are the plans and the conduct of a great majority of battles. ( The Cheshires, South Wales Borderers and the Argylls were awarded the French Croix de Guerre for their part - the Royal Scots Fusiliers lost 358, the Argylls 299 and the Scottish Rifles 228 men) Luckily, the Franco-Serbian advance was being continued with extraordinary vigour. (elsewhere) Before long the Bulgarian Army was cut in two and a general withdrawal began to take place along the entire front. Our Doiran battle was now regarded as a contribution to victory for had we not been effective in pinning down the enemy reserves? British commanders are wonderfully philosophic after all."

In other words a waste of lives.

Link

Jackanapes 23:38, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic unbalanced name of the article

In fact there are two different campaigns, included in present article - a) Serbian campaign of WWI (events up to the fall of Serbia) and b) subsequent Macedonian/Salonica front up to 30. IX. 1918. The second part is much broader than the present name presumes. The Serbian Salonica army wasn't the main factor on the Macedonian front, which name I prefer. There fought bigger Bulgarian, French, British, Greek forces, and also several other smaller national troops. From geographic and ethnographic points of view Macedonian front embraced territories, which were considered as a part of Serbia only from serbian perspective, check article Macedonian. Furthermore, it comprised lands which spread far away from Vardar Macedonia, temporarily occupied by Serbia. Another example - the same problem occures in the Categories menu, which includes only World War I and History of Serbia. So I think the name "Serbian campaign" should be changed if the contents remain the same or the article should be split into two separate articles. Best wishes, Jackanapes 23:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think it would be best if it is split in two, the "Serbian Campaign" proper until 1916 and the "Macedonian Front", from the landing of the Allies at Salonica in 1915 until the end of the war. Regards, Cplakidas 10:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear friends, there aren't counterarguments, so I will register new article Macedonian front (World War I) with the same text from point b) subsequent Macedonian/Salonica front up to 30. IX. 1918, which could be edited and expanded in the future. Regards, Jackanapes 17:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starting World War 1

I softened the first sentence of the article because it implied that the Austrian invasion of Serbia started World War 1. The first hostilities of the war were when the Germans invaded Belgium on 4 August, 8 days before the Austrians crossed the Drina and Sava. A small point, but it makes the article that much more accurate. --Iacobus 00:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

Numbers in this article do not correspond to these cited from relevant resources. Moreover, it appears that referenced sources are not existing any more. Are/were they relevant at all? For numbers please see Wiki article World War I casualties. Plantago 20:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)