Talk:Serbia national basketball team

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[edit] dispute

The YUGOSLAVIAN successes have to be removed this AREN'T succeses of the Serbian national team, even like it aren't succeses of the croatian or montenegrin national teams! This is only the succes of the Yugoslavia national basketball team Yoda1893 23:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think so? Serbia and Montenegro was successor to Yugoslavia team, and Serbia is successor to Serbia and Montenegro.Laughing Man 03:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

REVERT It is only the SUCCESOR but it ISN'T the same team. Even like Yugoslavia isn't the same like Serbia this wasn't only succeses of the Serbian. Or do you think that the socialistic dictatorship for example belongs only to the Serbian history??? West Germany was the succesor of Nazi Germany but it was even in all points ANOTHER country! Yoda1893 14:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously not the same team, but for records and statistics, it the successor. According to FIBA, affiliation is 1936 [1] and Serbia is successor of Serbia and Montenegro team [2]

The records are only the records of the old team! Yoda1893 14:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you please provide a single source that states that Serbia is not the successor to the previous team? At this point, I don't know how you can dispute that FIBA is a reliable source. Please stop removing this information as at this point it is pure vandalism as you have nothing to backup what you are assuming. Laughing Man 16:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't need a source because the FIBA didn't declare the SERBIAN national basketball team to the world Champion of 2002 or any other year, the history of the TEAM began 2006!!! Your "serbisation" of the Yugoslavian history isn't acceptable!!! Yoda1893 17:55, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

This really has nothing to do with Yugoslavian history, this has to do with how FIBA is handling the basketball federations/history/statistics. If you see the link of FIBA.com that I have given, you will see that FIBA recognizes the current Basketball Federation of Serbia as the successor the previous federations as it has been affiliated since 1936. [3] Again, please understand that Wikipedia is not a place for original research, and you must have a reliable source to backup your claims. If you feel the FIBA site is incorrect, can you please provide a reliable source that supports your claim and I will not revert your edits. Laughing Man 18:09, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the only evidence given that Yugoslav team records belong on this page is the text "Year of affiliation: 1936" found on FIBA World Championship 2006 site for "Serbia (SCG)".

On the other side:

official FIBA member history for Serbia clearly states the opposite [4];
other Wikipedia articles do not follow the logic "member retaining the place of the old FIBA member gets all of its credit", e.g. Russia national basketball team;
and anyway, stating that a nation's sport achievements are impressive because of "how FIBA is handling the basketball federations/history/statistics" does not sound very sporty to me. I can't imagine Serbian basketball players really wanting the encyclopedia article to look like it does now. But I may be wrong.

Hrvoje Šimić 12:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting now that the records are incomplete on that page Hrvoje, it seems they list 2005 as European Championship history, but it's clear that the team was still Serbia and Montenegro at that time which also competed in 2003, and as Federal Republic of Yugoslavia competed 4 times and won 3 EuroBasket championships. The FR Yugoslavia also competed 2 times and won 2 world championships. What you propose we do then?

Also, the "Russia basketball team" article you show seems only to be a stub that was created this month, and I don't think it makes sense to even reference it at this point as a precident. Unfortunately, there is no real standard format/template for national basketball team articles, and most of them are not of the best quality.

OK, Russia national football team then. Hrvoje Šimić 15:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I do not want to loose the records of FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro teams and I have added them the "Yugoslavia basketball team" article but I'm not sure if that's the best place. I'll try to do some more research to get some definitive answer, but when I created this article the sources I found listed the full history under the Serbia and Montenegro team, and that news article on FIBA made it seem that Serbia basketball federation succeeded the previous Serbia and Montenegro federation so I don't want to jump to any conclusions. Laughing Man 14:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not surprised to see that FIBA site(s) are messed up about this. Their burocracy is probably fuzzy about the "formal" status of the team records in the case of Yugoslavia, and the site publishers are probably adding another layer of confusion. But I really don't see that Wikipedia should blindly copy whatever information falls out of that organisation. If they have a clear policy, we probably should cite it. But I don't see it. And anyway, even a clear FIBA policy is not enough to end this argument.

I'm more interested in an encyclopedic, common-sense style rather than technical convinience. The article in this state is confusing. "Famous players" section cites only players from Serbia (logically), but then you lose the connection with the medals. If I scanned the article quickly and didn't know better, I would made out of it that Serbia was once called Yugoslavia, it was a basketball superpower, and that Dražen Petrović, Toni Kukoč and Dino Rađa (for example) were not an important part of its achievements.

I propose this: write a short section describing the Serbia's team succession from Yugo team, link it to Yugoslavia national basketball team and move the relevant stats there. The section can contain a digest of Yugo team impact on world basketball, and the contribution Serbian players made in that team. That way it doesn't look like Serbia is a basketball newbie, and also that it is not hogging all the credit. -- Hrvoje Šimić 15:27, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

As much as you might not agree, FIBA is the authority in terms of international basketball the same way that FIFA is the authority in terms of international football, and I can't image another source to be more authoritative, but if you can find something, please share it with us to add the the article.

Of course I agree! If you are refering to "[we should not] blindly copy whatever information falls out of that organisation", you are misrepresenting my views. And I see you agree with me, since you chose not to copy the "(SCG)" text from the same page. You only choose to copy the information that supports your POV, and ignore or discredit (in an offhand manner) any unsupporting evidence. --Hrvoje Šimić 12:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Nothing to do with POV, I'm looking for facts here. I think the fact that now "SCG" is now attached to "Serbia", it further appears that that the current basketball federation has succeeded the previous Serbia and Montenegro federation. Until there is a solid reference that states otherwise, I think changing the article from what we have is simply wrong. Laughing Man 16:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I think if you are getting that "basketball superpower" impression it is understandable, even from the history of FRY/SCG teams alone, although one can also see that recently the team has not been as successful. I don't know if you noticed, but I clarified the records to point out which teams were SFRY/FRY/SCG. I also wanted to point out that the article lists players from Bosnia-Herzegovina (Danlilovic) and Croatia (Stojakovic) as well, but perhaps the 'Era' that players played in should be clarified there.Laughing Man 15:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Your source DON'T improve that the RECORDS belong also to the Serbian Team! Yoda1893 23:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that the records don't belong to the team, at the very least you are still out of line as the FIBA affiliation date (1936) is clear from the FIBA web page as well as if you feel that SFR Yugoslavia records do not belong to Serbia national team (disregarding you have provided absolutely nothing to backup what you are saying in the first place), what about FR Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro records? By adding "1" appearance in the FIBA World Championship, what about the previous 2 appearances as Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? Now you are arguing that there is no continuity between FR Yugoslavia and SCG. Your edits contradict themselves.

Until you can find a single source of the contrary, you are simply trolling as far as I'm concerned. I think you have no idea of the history of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and Serbia and Montenegro, as well as separating that with way the FIBA manages national teams through federations / associations. Finally, can you please explain what you mean in your edit summary? "rv stop serbisation" [5] // Laughing Man 00:05, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

With stop "serbisation" I mean, that you should stop stealing the records of the Yugoslavian team. Because you "serbisate" (means: representing Yugoslav records as Serbian records) history which is in the same way part of the Croatian, Bosnian, Montenegrin. etc. history, but even like in this article NOT part of the new team! Even Russia national basketball team CAN'T list records of the soviet union team! Your useless source only describes that the FEDERATION took over the affliation date of the former Federation but NOT that the TEAM took over the records of the old teams. Surely there is a continunity between Yugoslavia and Serbia, but not more like for example between Yugoslavia and Croatia. Yoda1893 11:09, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well there is no "continuity" between Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Croatia, and Bosnia, only between Serbia and Montenegro. So where should FR Yugoslavia stats go? Again it seems to me you don't understand both the history and the way that FIBA works, this is an exercise in futility. Laughing Man 16:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please stop edit warring

I have added User:Yoda1893's contention for disputed factual accuracy, as well {{fact}} tag on (top). I hope this enough to please stop the silly revert wars until we can got some solid confirmation of team succession details from FIBA or Basketball Federation of Serbia. Laughing Man 18:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I support adding the dispute tag, and removing the sentence from intro. However, I do not agree that the dispute is about "if SER succeeds SCG/YUG teams". It is about listing Yugoslavia's national basketball team records as Serbia's. Succession is only a part of that dispute. I have also removed the misleading section heading from the Talk page. Please do not modify other people's entries or put them in different context.

Please show me other peoples entries that have I modified. I have never done this, so do not make false accusations. All I have done is added section titles and indentation. Hrvoje, I recommend reviewing Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Layout as well as Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#New topics and headings on talk pages. Thanks // Laughing Man 20:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I was not accusing you of anything, just warning you. I felt that placing old comments under that title changed their context. I am aware that you may have only tried to organise the talk page better, but you have to be sensitive about it. A neutral title like "The original discussion" would not be objectionable. -- Hrvoje Šimić 21:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Also to be clear, feel free to modify the disputed reason as I am not the one disputing the article, I added the tag to hopefully put an end to the disruptive edit warring. // Laughing Man 21:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I also feel that ignoring the evidence presented by the other side and qualifying it as "nothing but original research and opinions" is very damaging for the dispute resolution. I urge all sides to direct their efforts on encyclopedic quality of the article and not on short-term political goals. -- Hrvoje Šimić 19:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Please point out a single source provided by Yoda1893 as perhaps I have missed it. What stands out to me is the "I don't need a source" statement he made. [6] Thanks. // Laughing Man 20:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I said "evidence presented by the other side", which includes both Yoda1893 and me. Are you saying you will ignore evidence only if it comes from me? :) -- Hrvoje Šimić 21:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You quoting my "nothing but original research" comment was taken from my edit summary in the article. You have not been edit warring and the comment so I do not know why you think this was directed by you. I will of course not ignore any sources (not sure what you mean by evidence) that clearly define the book keeping of these statistics as I would like to see how the ruling body of international basketball decides. // Laughing Man 00:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Your comment was on the edits: you stated that the information (records) for the SFRY should not be removed from the article without supporting sources. Therefore, you ignored the fact that there were supporting sources listed on the Talk page (and they were no worse than the sources used to support the claim). That it was one user adding the sources and another one acting according to them is irrelevant. -- Hrvoje Šimić 06:16, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

YOU need a source which improves that the Serbian team has the same records like the Yugoslav and you won't find a source for this. Yoda1893 21:34, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overview of evidence for dispute about incorporating SFRY team records

I have tried to systematically gather relevant claims and evidence in this dispute (as well as adding some found during the writing of this section) in hope that this way all the evidence presented will be taken into consideration and not ignored. I am aware that this list may not be complete or accurate, so please feel free to join in. I'm experimenting here, so I don't know is it better to edit this list or create other(s). All I know is I would like the list(s) to stay as clean and manageable as possible.

For purposes of the debate I have reduced the scope to the most controversial part regarding the SFRY team records. The question is:

Should a Wikipedia article on Serbia's national basketball team incorporate pre-breakup SFRY's national basketball team records?

Evidence for incorporating SFRY team records in this article:

Claim: For FIBA records and statistics, Serbia is (indirectly) the only sucessor of SFRY. A successor's records should incorporate the records of succeeded teams.
1. Source: Pages stating "Year of affiliation: 1936" for Serbia on FIBA World Championship 2006 site [7]
2. Source: A FIBA news item stating "The Basketball Federation of Serbia will retain the place of the former Basketball Federation of Serbia and Montenegro as a FIBA member." [8]
3. Source: Listings of "Participation" and "Achievements in FIBA competition" for Serbia (or Serbia&Montenegro) on FIBA World Championship 2006 site stating "SERBIA & MONTENEGRO (SCG) 13th appearance (3 consecutive)". [9]
4. (moved to #2.1)
Claim: International news organizations represent Serbia as successor to the previous Yugoslavia federations
1. Source: Listing of international competition history of Serbia National Team on EuroBasket.com references complete statistics, starting at 1950 through 2006: [10]
2. Source: InsideHoops.com combines records for SFR Yugoslavia 3 and 2 FR Yugoslavia championships (Total 5) [11]
3. Source: InsideHoops.com article: "It was Yugoslavia (now known as Serbia & Montenegro) who defeated the USA Senior squad and eliminated it from medal contention at the 2002 FIBA World Championship..." [12]
4. Source: CBC article: victory over defending champion Serbia and Montenegro.....which won the gold medal in 2002 as Yugoslavia, but only one player from that team was back to defend the title. [13]
5. Source: Inq7 article: "The third world championship in 1959 was won by Brazil; the fourth in 1963, also won by Brazil; the fifth in 1967 by the Soviet Union; the sixth in 1970 by Yugoslavia; the seventh in 1974 by the Soviet Union; the eighth in 1978 by Yugoslavia; the ninth in 1982 by the Soviet Union; the 10th in 1986 by the US; the 11th in 1990 by Yugoslavia; the 12th in 1994 by the US; the 13th in 1998 by Yugoslavia; the 14th in 2002 by Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia); and the 15th in 2006 by Spain." [14]
6. Source: ABC sport (.au) "In late matches, Spain ousted defending champion Serbia and Montenegro" [15]
7. Source: Radio New Zealand "Spain beat defending champions Serbia and Montenegro" [16]

Evidence against incorporating SFRY team records in this article:

Claim: FIBA official records and statistics for Serbia do not include SFRY team records.
1. (removed)
2. Evidence: Official FIBA Europe site page about Serbia team history [17]
Claim: Other Wikipedia articles in similar situation do not incorporate records of pre-breakup teams.
1. Evidence: Wikipedia article on Russia national basketball team.
2. Evidence: Wikipedia article on Russia national football team.
3. Evidence: Wikipedia article on Serbia national football team.
Claim: Incorporating SFRY team records is misleading and unencyclopedic.
1. Evidence: Infobox lists "Serbia" as "1970, 1978, 1990" World Champion, etc. [18]
2. Evidence: Article is listing SFRY team achievements but is excluding many players who made them possible, apparently because they never played for Serbia (e.g. Dražen Petrović, Toni Kukoč). [19]

Comments about listed statements:

I propose to add comments about the contents of the preceding lists here, to avoid clogging it. Hrvoje Šimić 21:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the first point for "against", Listings for Team USA only goes back to 2003 as well. Those statistics are not complete. But in fact, do support the fact that Serbia and Montenegro inherited Yugoslavia's records, so I added this as link to the top of the page you linked -- "SERBIA & MONTENEGRO (SCG) 13th appearance (3 consecutive)". Thanks for finding this link Hrvoje. USA National team profile on the same site, with incomplete championship history. In regard the FIBAEurope link, I believe it's the same story as FIBA link, and the fact that it shows any history is a sign that this new federation will be inheriting previous federations stats, as it's obvious Serbia did not compete before 2006. This is a good start Hrvoje, I will look for something more definitive, and try to get an answer directly from the appropriate organizations if possible as at this point. // Laughing Man 01:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the second point, I do not know the how Russia teams were handled by FIFA and UEFA, I need to investigate, but if you do notice the Serbia national football team article does incorporate the records of Serbia and Montenegro/FR Yugoslavia. I don't think to much weight should be taken in this case though, as FIFA and FIBA do need to follow the same criteria for record keeping, Also the situation with SFRY->FRY->SCG->SER seems to be a unique case, so we need to find out how it's being handled. // Laughing Man 01:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the third point, everything that is misleading can be clarified. The goal here I think is to get the facts correct first then we can clarify them. // Laughing Man 01:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think it will lead us to a situation like this: First, we get the "facts" straight (e.g. "Serbia is 1970 World Champion in basketball") and we write it explicitly in the article. If someone says to herself "I thought it was another country" she will be able to scan the article and find out that, actually, the team was called "Yugoslavia" back then. If she thoughts "But wasn't Yugoslavia a whole lotta more than just Serbia?" and reads the article through, it will read something like "well, yes it was, but for the purposes of records and statistics, let's say it wasn't". And for the not-so-inquisitive, they will take home just the "facts". Hrvoje Šimić 06:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, please provide some sources as I have been doing that support your theory, as Wikipedia is not a place for original research. Please point where else 'she' will be confused as this hypothetical nonsense is really not getting us anywhere and I have already tried to improve the article by clarifying where records are from. At first I was assuming good faith when you decided to start this 'case' but now I'm not sure what your intentions are. Please also understand that the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.// Laughing Man 14:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

You have ignored or dismissed every source I have provided and flooded discussion with sources irrelevant to the dispute (stating S&M team is the new name for FRY team, which nobody disputes). On my attempt to discuss the implications of presenting SFRY team as the same national team as Serbia's you throw around inappropriate Wikipedia policies like some troll robot. If your goal is to make everybody else give up cooperating with you, keep it up - you're doing a good job. -- Hrvoje Šimić 17:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

All I've seen is one source above, the FIBA Europe link that does not display the full history of the team. [20] you have not produced a single source that states Serbia is a brand new team and does not succeed the previous federations. The strongest primary source that we have so far is the FIBA press release that establishes continuity between Serbia and Serbia and Montenegro [21] The recent news sources I have provided are not irrelevant as it clearly establishes the continuity between Serbia and Montenegro and Yugoslavia, which is what Yoda1893 has contested from the beginning [22] so at a minimum, it should stop his disruption of the article. I don't think NOR and WP:V are irrelvant and in fact if those were respected (providing verifiable sources instead of original research), there would be no dispute in the first place. I have spent lots of time researching this on English language publications and have had a very hard time finding something more clear, and the best that I have found (FIBA sources) I have shared with everyone, and would appreciate if others did the same with their findings as it will help resolve the dispute. // Laughing Man 18:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

MOVED HERE FROM THE LIST ABOVE (evidence not able to support claim FIBA official records and statistics for Serbia do not include SFRY team records.) -- Hrvoje Šimić 06:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

 1.1. Evidence against: Listings of "Participation" and "Achievements in FIBA competition"
 for Serbia (or Serbia&Montenegro) on FIBA World Championship 2006 site [23]  
   Invalid -- please see comments below, this in fact supports the 'for' side. 
   by Laughing Man 01:19, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Since you are only referring to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, not Federal Republic of Yugoslavia here, I have clarified disputed tag in article, perhaps it will help other editors understand the dispute who are not familiar with the history of the region. // Laughing Man 21:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
I could not verify that evidence "for" #1.4 from EuroBasket.com lists FIBA official records, or that it supports the claim it was supposed to. Please state the evidence more clearly or remove it. Hrvoje Šimić 06:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not removing any sources. Eurobasket.com is an international basketball news organization. // Laughing Man 06:19, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

So does anyone have any sources that support the theory that Serbia is not the successor of previous basketball federations? I don't know how the factual accuracy can be disputed if there is not one source that supports your original research that Serbia is not the successor the previous basketball federations. // Laughing Man 20:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's my take on the matter: