Talk:Septimius Severus

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1 Last words
2 Septimius or Septimus?
3 Bias
4 This Needs to be fixed
5 Was he black?
6 Year of his birth
7 Maybe he was tanned?
8 Removed "He was one of the early Africans in history to gain fame..."
9 Libyco-Punic or Liby-Phoenician

[edit] Last words

was he the one whose last words (to his sucessor) were "pay the soldiers and fuck the rest"? -- Cabalamat 19:57, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

No. According to the HA his last words were along the lines of "I rought peace to the Empire in every corner, now I leave it to my sons; the Empire will be strong if they prove good, weak if they prove bad". Lucius Domitius 16:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Septimius or Septimus?

Is his name Septimus or Septimius because it changes in different articles? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.133.105.180 (talk • contribs).

Septimius with an I. *Septimus is not a proper variant; it's a plain mistake, and should be corrected. — Bill 16:37, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

How come this page still refers to Severus as "African" rather then Black? - The British Museum says he was black, not simply "North African". - There is a serious bias on this here page.

First try signing your input. It is NOT a well known fact Lucius Niger was black. Cassius Dio makes it very clear he was a descendent of Phoenicians not native Africans and that his mother was from an Italian background. This has been discussed ad nauseum and few serious historians would make the claim he was black today. Virgil61 07:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a well known fact that Lucius Pescennius Niger was a black man it is not even debated, it is in the historic texts such as Book 75 from the works of Cassius Dio. - And even though Lucius Pescennius Niger is reffered to as an "Italian" in the book it later explains that he was a black Italian.

See your errors above. Virgil61 07:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It is pretty clear in the book of Dio that Pescennius Niger was a black man, and I will quote from it so you can finally learn something new. "" This proved to be the greatest disaster of the war; for twenty thousand of Niger's followers perished. And this evidently was the meaning of the priest's dream. 2 It seems that while Severus was in Pannonia the priest of Jupiter in a dream saw a black man force his way into the emperor's camp and come to his death by violence; and by interpreting the name of Niger people recognized that 'he was the black man in question. Orasis 06:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC) (8)

Trust me, you are in no position to teach me anything about Roman History. Virgil61 06:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Now can it be any clearer then that? 'HE WAS THE BLACK MAN IN QUESTION' end of story with Niger, he was BLACK as in skin. Orasis 06:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You intention is clear. You want him to be considered African racially. You posting history shows it, your selective reading shows it and so on. Fine, believe what you want. Virgil61 06:06, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

(EDIT NOT ORIGINAL AUTHOR -- It is also sad that on the wikipedia page of Percennius Niger SOMEONE keeps removing the fact that he was black - IT IS NOT DEBATABLE, Pescennius Niger was BLACK. Cassius B75.)

It will continue to be removed if inserted. Virgil61 07:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

My point is this, when you say "because emperor Severus hailed from North Africa that does not mean he was not black..." that kind of logic does not fit with the historical facts surrounding life and migration during the lifetime of the Roman Empire, and we know for a fact that many races lived in many areas that were not native to their race at the time. And again like others have said here -- the British National Museum says this man was a black. Some try to counter this by observing that he does not have negroid features on his statue etc, well neither does Lucius Pescennius Niger - but we know for a fact that he was indeed black.

Also since Severus was not 100% black, his features are not really an issue.

So do not say whether Niger was black is even "debated", you have to be blind as a bat to miss that part where it clearly says that Niger was the black man in question. Orasis 06:51, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

For God's sakes man, it state quite clearly he was of Italian and Punic descent. If the translation is correct he wasn't black in the sense of being of African ethnic origin. Can you not follow that logic? Virgil61 19:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

So in your logic all Americans are white? And all Brazilians are brown and so forth? - I mean simply because he was of Italian descent, does not mean that the man was "Italian" as in race. Orasis 01:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

You clearly have some sort of cognitive difficulty with this.

You want him to be black as in African, that is your agenda. He wasn't. Cassius Dio says "This man was an Italian of the equestrian order", taken to mean he was of indigenous Italian origin. There are no "African" people populating Italy at the time in large numbers. There are Gauls in the North, Greeks in the south, Etruscan, and Latin and related tribes in the middle. Your 'agenda' seems to dictate your beliefs. Virgil61 05:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

If you take this view on all of your history, perhaps we can also throw away the fact that Cleopatra greek by race, and call her African, so from now on we shall assume that she was either a berber or a negroid since she was the Queen of the 'Egytians.

You logic makes no sense. There are no non Indo-Europeans (save for Etruscans) inhabiting Italy at the time and a clear indication of Italian descent (ie from Italy) and given an equestrian title. Your agenda is that he be of African descent, that's your 'game'.Virgil61 05:43, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyways, I have no clear idea as to why this clear as day passage is hard for you to grasp

It seems that while Severus was in Pannonia the priest of Jupiter in a dream saw a black man force his way into the emperor's camp and come to his death by violence; and by interpreting the name of Niger people recognized that 'he was the black man in question.

As for Severus being black that may still be up for debate.

[edit] This Needs to be fixed

Calling Septimius Severus simply the "African Caesar" makes no sense, from all qualified sources I can find like the British National Museum and it's set of historians say that Severus was "Black" not simply someone from Africa. - I also believe that there is an ancient history text written during the empire which says that Severus was a black man in skin color and not simply "African". I also think some parts of Wikipedia are similar where a historical person is known as being black or half and it is not mentioned. -- If we are going to have an accurate encyclopedia, it cannot hide or twist facts. -- And that still applies if Severus was not black, but it seems that all sites that people submit as references claim that he was Black - the BBC/British National Museum.

[edit] Was he black?

There are a lot of pages on Wikipedia in which people who are known to be black or partially are not recognized as such. Septimus Severus is one of these people, I do not understand where some of you get your "historians do not agree" theory. - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severan_Tondo) that pretty much makes it clear for one, secondly most historians agree on the BBC article that Septimus was a black man. -- The same thing has happened with the article on Charlotte Sohphia wife of King George III, while not fully black -- she is mixed, and that is fact but not mentioned at all.

Another page about Halfdan the Black does not even mention that "black" was actually due to his skin color and not his temper.

Reminder : To say Septimus was not black we would have to ignore the Tondo.Because it is fairly obvious that there is a major difference in color between that of Julia the child and Septimus.

Septimius Severus was most definitely not black in spite of some pseudo-histories out there. I've deleted the incorrect text from the article.

Septimius Severus was born in Leptis Magna, the Roman Province of Tripolitina (modern Africa) of a Phoenician father and a Roman mother, and who were part of the equestrian class. Leptis Magna was an ancient Phoenician trading colony. Phoenicians were originally from what is now Lebanon. He was most probably of the same complexion as Romans themselves. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.33.66.144 (talk • contribs).

(Please quit vandalizing my commentary)

Its is funny how the people who deny Severus' blackness all use websites that refer to him as the black emperor of Rome. They say he is black because he was a native african. Even the British national Museum recognized that he is black so this isn't up for debate. He was one of many black berbers who lived in Africa and still live in Libya until this day. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

History from webites may be your problem. Most present-day classical scholars dont' agree with you or your assessment. Try reading history and using critical thinking sometime instead of getting your info from the internet.

Get a history degree then you'll understand. That's not up for debate. Septimius wasn't of Berber stock, his parents weren't black either in spite of your vandalism of my above paragraph. If you don't like what I write fine, have more courtesy than a common thug and don't adjust my writing on the discussion page.

Few modern day scholars consider Severus a Berber, but there are indications he was of Punic and Roman (Italian) stock. I've included the Historia Augusta as the reference. Virgil61 19:05 21 Oct 2005 (UTC)

It ought to be added that while Romans and Phoenicians certainly aren't Black, North African Berbers aren't black either. Look at the people of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia today - they are of largely Berber stock, and they look more like Arabs than they do like sub-saharan Africans. Only the Tuaregs look black, and they live deep in the Sahara, not on the northern coast of Africa. It does no credit to anybody to try to falsely claim that people like Septimius Severus, Hannibal, and Cleopatra (a Macedonian, for God's sake!) were black. Claiming that these people were black is like claiming that Jan Smuts and Paul Kruger were black - living in Africa does not make one black! john k 20:04, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I actually have one of the books listed here and it states that Septimus Severus was 1/8 Roman and 7/8 black african. I have used the sources cited which I see you have deleted. Why is that a book or website is credible to use that describes so much of his history yet when it says he is black it must be a lie. This seems to be based on some form of weird Eurocentrism that tries to deny that any civlization that has ever accomplished anything was black. I already have multiple history degrees and I am working as an assistant professor and the University of Toronto. I'm not denying that he had some Roman(White Roman) blood but I am acknowledging the fact that he was 7/8 a black man. Go to the British National Muesuem and you will see septimus severus listed as one of the great black britons. I guess they are all liars too. Why did you delete the refernce to this website is their something you are trying to conceal. That reference has been there for many years and never seemed to be a problem until now. So you have deleted it in a poor attempt to cover up the evidence. I disagree with your statement that Romans aren't black. There were plenty of black Romans in North Africa like Terrence. In fact I think he was a playwright or something like that. The usurper of the throne during severus' time, Niger whos name mean black was another black Roman emperor. I also disagree that Phoencians aren't black. According to the bible Qu'ran and Torah they are black whether you take it literally or not, especially for those who don't.

I am from Algeria and immigrated here when I was 13, no one has ever called me a race other than black. There goes that arguement for you.

I don't know when sub-sahran african became the defining of who is black and who isn't. People from Kush which is now southern egypt were very black and they are not sub-saharan so that argument already makes no sense. The only reason you are trying to define blackness as sub-saharna african is that is where african americans come from so that is what is black to you. Tunisia has tonnes of black people but also lots of white people. You are ignroing that many North african countries were occupied for 1000 years by the turks who didn't really pull out from the area. Most of the light skinned people from North africa are of Turkish descent but of the berber culture. The reality is that there were many blacks in Northern Africa and only since the invasion and 1000 years occupation by turks do we see basically white/arab looking people in North Africa. Not to mention they don't have the race hate in Algeria like you guys do here so mixing Turkish and black nroth africa would be fairly common then anyways.

I don't know if Cleopatra was black but I do know there are and were many black Egyptians. I'm not going to try to say she was black or white because I don't think we will really ever know for certain, so it is a waste of time debate.

I do know that Libyans however are black and even today the majority of them are dark skinned black people or mixed with Turkish like the Qaddafi who is a mix himself and wife is black. We also know that Severus was definitley black. Hannibal was also black but probably not as dark black as Severus was.

Your view is seems to be based more on hate more than evidence. Saying Severus was white or not black is a joke because no one believes you and there is a meuseum set up by the British government that says opposite so stop vandalising the post. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

I'm putting back the reference to the brit. nat. mueseum because it has been there for years so I don't see why it is no longer credble simply because it doesn't fit your racist narrow minded based views of black people are. This refernce was there for years so I don't see why you are only now editing it because I seen you edit this page at least ten times before and only since I brought it up have you removed this from their. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

Although I'm one of the great majority out there who don't believe Severus was black (and will revert the body of the article as many times as necessary) — as a link, that's a good idea, and I hope we keep that: it's a viewpoint, after all, and deserves a link. Bill 21:04, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I refuse to respond to this nonsense save to once again reassert that Phoenicians are not black, and that both Hannibal and Septimius Severus were clearly of largely Phoenician origin (Leptis Magna was a Phoenician city). I don't see how it makes me any more racist to say Hannibal was not black than it makes me racist to say that Smuts wasn't black, except that nobody tries to pretend that Smuts was black. There is about equal support for both ideas. As to whether Algerians are "black," I certainly can't speak for your personal experience. But I do know that anthropologists consider North Africans to be more closely related to Europeans than they are to Sub-Saharan Africans.

I have removed the link you have insierted. Whatever its source, it is full of nonsense and is misleading. It says Septimius Severus was the first emperor not born and raised in Italy. This is simply untrue. Trajan and Hadrian were both born in Spain. Beyond this, it simply takes it for granted that everybody born in Africa is black. It cites a bunch of sources, none of which appears to be one dealing with the issue of whether Severus was black. I would have no problem with linking to an article that makes the argument that Severus was black. I do not see why we should be linking to articles that simply blindly assert this. john k 21:37, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The article will stay because you are the only person here who thinks it should go. Your personal opioin is that it should go because you believe severus was white, the link should stay because it has always been there and has never been an issue to no one but you. It is best that we leave his race as either blank as it currenlt is or present both views. Removing a link that one our of thousands of people who have edited this page for the last several years is simply foolish. If the link is filled with all non-sense then it would have been deleted along time ago. It seems like you are some guy who doesn't want to accept it which I can't force you to, but that gives you know right to delete a link which thousands of people did not object to for years.

Birley, A. R., The African Emperor: Septimius Severus, London,1988
Haynes, I. P., The Romanization of the Alae and Cohortes of the Roman Imperial Army from Augustus to Septimius Severus (unpublished PhD thesis), Oxford, 1993
Hill, P. V., The Coinage of Septimius Severus and his Family of the Mint of Rome, London, 1964
Holder, P. A., The Roman Army in Britain, London, 1980
Honore, T., 'Scriptor Historiae Augustae', Journal of Roman Studies 77, 1987, pp. 156-176
Millar, F., The Emperors in the Roman World, London, 1977

I don't see what is wrong with any of these sources that you claimed were bad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

We most certainly do not know if I am the only person who thinks it should go. I am the only person who has taken action to remove it. Bill said that he thought a link was fine, but I have presented several reasons I think it should go - it is possible I have convinced him (or not - but you don't know any better than I). I have little interest in discussing his "race," as this is not a concept which would have been familiar to the Romans. That his family was probably of Phoenician origin seems to be generally accepted among scholars, though. As to the sources you list above, I do not claim that any of them is bad. I claim that none of them has to do with the issue of whether Severus was black. Looking at the Amazon reviews of the Birley book, it appears rather strongly that Birley says that Severus's origins were Punic (you can look at them too!). Basically, these are good sources for a discussion of the life of Septimius Severus, and for issues about the Roman army in Britain, and so forth. But so far as I can tell, none of them makes the argument that Severus was Black (that is, Sub-Saharan African), or even that he was a Berber. The article you link to also fails to make that argument. It simply assumes that anybody from Africa is Black. I'm sorry, but this is misleading, and until you can provide a source which actually argues that Septimius Severus was black, rather than asserting it on the basis that he was born in Africa, we shouldn't be linking to an article which consists of misleading half-truths. john k 23:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

There are no soruces that establish a widely known historical fact that Severus was black. You are the first to assert he was white. Obviously there will be no counter argument (Severus was black) to an argument that didn't exist until now(Severus was not black). It is like there is no website that argues Napolean was white because it is a historical fact that Napolean was white and not Arab, Chinese or Black. The fact there are so many websites sponsored by a white British government who has nothing to lose or gain by asserting Severus was black is already enough proof and at least enough to have his black heritage mentioned. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

It is not a historical fact. Please cite a single scholarly source which says that Severus was black. He was of Romanized Phoenician background, and was no more black than my mother (an Ashkenazi Jew) is. john k 07:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Beyond this, you are full of shit about the link - it was never in the article until you came along a few days ago. So the "hundreds" of people who have edited the article have had no chance to make a judgment on your link, since it wasn't there before. john k 23:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

No the article has been there for a long time you can go check the history. I didn't even add it. It was there before I was even created here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

I did check the history - it was added by you. john k 07:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

On examination, the page under that link is, like J.K. says, not good at all, and — more to the point, again like J.K. says — doesn't really address the question. Normally, I'm ferocious about the quality of outside links, and if this were some non-controversial article, I'd delete the link too; here, however, there ought to be some witness to the theory that S.S. was black, as misguided as I believe it to be. (It's surprising to find such a weak page sponsored by the British government, too!) A better page, then, would be welcome: do you think you can find one? Bill 00:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I perfectly agree that a decent page making the argument that Septimius Severus was black would be fine. But all I can seem to find on the internet are sites about "famous black people" that discuss Septimius Severus and simply assert that he was black because he was born in Africa. Will try to find something relevant, though, if I can. john k 01:38, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

It is your responisbilty to replace the link because you are the one removing it. Since we cannot assume that people from Africa are black according to you then we cannot assume people from Europe like say Socrates or Plato are white simply because they are from Europe. They could have been Arabs, Chinese, Native Americans, Latino or Black. If you hold a certain standard in a debate for one race of people then you must enforce it for all races and all people. D,Jon

This is ridiculous. People from North Africa and Europe are generally assumed to be "white" in most accounts. It would certainly be absurd to call Socrates or Plato Arabs, Chinese, Native Americans, Latino (a category which didn't even exist until 1492) or Black. john k 07:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. People from North Africa are generally assumed to be "black" in most accounts before the Ottomans. Arabs, Chinese, Native Americans, Latino or Black s all existed before 1592 as opposed to what you are trying to say. North Africans (Exlcuding egypt which had mixed people) have been always black until the 1000 year occupation by the Ottomans who still live there today. I'm not saying that Plato wasn't white but if you believe this then you must find the same kind of evidence you want me to find the SS was black. You will notice it will be very hard for you to find credible places that actually give evidence of him being white as opposed to asserting it. This is because it is simply a widely known fact as in the case with SS. Not to mention there was not race the way we look at it 2000 years ago so even if severus was from zululand it would be highly unlikely that it would have been documented that he was black. All I am saying is to hold a similiar standard for everyone. If blacks like Septimus Severus and Hannibal need proof they are black then so must Julius Caesar, Plato, and Socrates they are white and that Confuscious is Asian or Siddharta Indian. You can't just say that only famous blacks need proof of being black but people from a melting pot mediterrain like say Caesar or emperors from spain don't need proof of being white. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

"Latinos" are not a race. If you mean "Mestizos" - that is to say, mixtures of whites and American Indians, then no, these did not exist before Columbus. Beyond this, the Ottomans did not occupy North Africa for a thousand years (if they can be considered to have occupied it at all - their control beyond Egypt was always very tenuous, and they mostly ruled through semi-independent local dynasties), and they never ruled over Morocco at all. Beyond this, you have as yet provided absolutely no evidence that the native peoples of North Africa were "black" in the sense that we normally mean today (that is to say, sub-saharan African), and this doesn't even get into the fact that Septimius Severus was almost certainly of largely Phoenician origins. And don't give me the "the Canaanites were black" garbage. This is using one absurd fringe belief to support another absurd fringe belief. Of course, it's hard to find direct evidence that ancient North Africans were "white," (in the broad sense) but this is the scholarly consensus. Beyond this, I don't think we have statements in our articles about Caesar or Plato that they were white. This would be ridiculous. They were an ancient Roman and an ancient Greek, respectively. We know from archaeology that ancient Romans and ancient Greeks were white, but this is not a terribly relevant fact. You have provided absolutely no evidence that ancient North Africans (especially Punic North Africans) should be considered to be black, you have simply (repeatedly) asserted it, on the basis, apparently, that everyone from Africa, save maybe Egyptians, is black. This is ridiculous. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Forget about saddling people with "responsibility"! The aim is to produce a good encyclopedia article, and whoever can find a good link should insert it. From a practical standpoint mind you, judging from other articles, those most likely to find such a link are those most driven by the particular topic. A priori, there is no reason there shouldn't be an excellent page out there somewhere on the theory that Severus was black: that lays out the evidence in ancient documents, explains why it is conclusive, explains why the standard opinion is not correct, etc. If you or I, or anyone else, finds such a page, it will surely be welcome here. Bill 09:18, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm check out these site and give me feedback. I've stayed away from pro-black sites that say everyone is black.

http://www.kingston.gov.uk/leisure/whats_on/current_events/blackhistorymonth/blackbritishhistory.htm

This merely asserts. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/blackhistorymap/arch.html

So does this. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

http://www.romans-in-britain.org.uk/bio_severus.htm

Likewise. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

These books all say he and others were black At the time that the twelve African Christian martyrs died in A.D. 180 there were living two great African personages: Septimus Severus, who later became Emperor of Rome; and Tertullian, one of the great of Church leaders."

--J.C. DeGraft-Johnson

No one is denying that Septimius Severus was African (or that Tertullian was). john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Birley, Anthony. Septimius Severus: The African Emperor. Garden City: Doubleday, 1972.

I've not read Birley, but I am highly suspicious that he says Septimius Severus was black, or even a Berber. Reading the reviews of the book on Amazon, it seems quite clear that he depicts Severus as being of Phoenician origins. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Brilliant, Richard. The Arch of Septimius Severus in the Roman Forum. Rome: American Academy of Rome, 1967.

Can you provide a quote which supports your claim that this book says he was black? john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Carlisle, Edward E., and Josephine E. Carlisle. "Septimius Severus (Negro Emperor of Rome)." Chapter in Historical Sketches of the Ancient Negro: A Compilation. 1920; rpt. London: African Publication Society, 1981: 76-97.

This seems pretty dubious, and old. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

DeGraft-Johnson, J.C. "Africa Romana." Chapter in African Glory: The Story of Vanished Negro Civilizations. 1954; rpt. Baltimore: Black Classic Press, 1986: 25-36.

Again, pretty old. The quote you (or rather, the website you copied this list from) gives from this book does not support that it claims he was black - just that he was African (which, again, nobody is denying). john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Jones, Edward L. "Lucius Septimius Severus (145-211 A.D.) The Black Emperor of the World (193-211 A.D.)." Chapter in Profiles in African Heritage. Black Studies Series (In Classical History). Seattle: University of Washington, 1972: 129-50.

Looks dubious - not to be found in my university library, for instance. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Jones, Edward L. Review of Septimius Severus: The African Emperor, by Anthony R. Birley. In Black Scholar 7, No. 8 (1976): 55-56.

Couldn't find this journal on JSTOR. Reading through the reviews of Birley's book on Severus in classics journals, it does not appear that there is any support at all for the idea that Severus was black. Birley is apparently writing against the commonly accepted older idea of the Severans as an alien, eastern "Semitic" dynasty (Severus himself a Phoenician, his wife a Syrian), but there is no indication that he thinks Severus was black. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Jones, Edward L. The Black Diaspora: Colonization of Colored People. Seattle: Edward L. Jones, 1989.

Jones seems a dubious source in general. Even so, can you provide any evidence for the claim that this backs up your story? john k

McCann, Ann Marguerite. The Portraits of Septimius Severus. Rome: American Academy of Rome, 1968.

Any evidence that this supports your argument? john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Person-Lynn, Kwaku. "Septimius Severus--Emperor of the Roman Empire." Los Angeles Sentinel, 1 Jan 1991: A-8.

A story in a newspaper? Forgive me if I am dubious. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Platnauer, M. The Life and Reign of the Emperor Lucius Septimius Severus. London: Oxford Press, 1918.

Any evidence that this supports your argument? john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Raven, Susan. "The First African Emperor." Chapter in Rome in Africa. 3d edition. London: Routledge, 1993: 132-43.

Any evidence that this supports your argument? Remember, nobody is denying that he was African. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Tuck, Jim. "Marcus Opellius Macrinus: Rome's Negro Emperor." Negro Digest (Feb 1965): 22-28.

This would seem to be about Macrinus, another African emperor. Macrinus may, in fact, have been a Berber, although it seems more likely that he was of Italian or Phoenician origin, too. But it doesn't relate to Severus. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

As I said before people from Libya have and contiued to be assumed as black. Although the Ottomans have made many "white" if Algerians and Egyptians they did not have as much an affect on the Libyan population because it was small and did not have as much valuable land at that time(before oil was found there). Even today most Libyans are very dark skinned clearly black african people and there are about 10-20% mixed people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

On what basis do you claim this? In the United States, North Africans are considered to be "White" in our racial categories. This is supported, so far as I am aware, by studies in population genetics. As to the Libyans, they are not clearly black at all. King Idris didn't look black. Neither does Qaddafi. Neither does the current prime minister. At any rate, your arguments about the Ottomans are completely ass backwards. The argument usually made is that North Africans used to be whiter, and that they have had an influx in black blood over the last few centuries due to the importation of slaves from sub-saharan Africa in the modern period.

I'm posting inbetween you cause of all the things you wrote. North African have only been classified as caucsoid since 1950's. It is important to understand that Cauasoid simply means have facial features like a straight nose etc. This however does not mean white. There are plenty of Causoid black africans. This is because American base blackness on being a west african/african american which is not where black africans origante from so there are large amounts of black being discluded when you use this narrow term. Libyans are very black indeed. They have very dark skin and show afrcoid features like the curly hair, thick lips etc. Qudaffi is mixed with Ottoman turk so of course he doesn't look very dark skinned black. His wife is a black woman and his sons look like typical african ameiricans except with shaved heads. King Idris is an example of another mixed fellow from Libya. He display afrocid lips and hair while keeping ottoman facial features. The Libyan Prime minister shure is abnormally dark for a white man. He is just another mixed man from Libya. I'm sure a question might be well the sure are alot of mixed Libyans in politics. I would agree, any African or black country that was occupied by foreigners always seems to have exceptionally high amount of people from mixed race in politics. You can pick nearlly anyone and see this. Eg. Jamaica. 90% of it prime minister have either been white or half white or half non syrian yet whites make up 5% of the population. Your argument about th Ottomans is just a load of crap and needs no response as it disproves itself. You seem to think all black must look the same. Slavery has been outlawed in North Africa for a very long time and the Ottomans actually captured white europeans sailors of the mediterrain, converted them and used them as slaves because it was alot closer than the Kongo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

Here are the basic things that need to be determined to be able to say if Severus was black:

1) What was Severus's own ethnicity? Was he Phoenician, Roman/Italian, Berber, or some combination? Given that Leptis Magna was a Phoenician-speaking city, as far as I am aware, he is normally taken to be of mostly Phoenician origin.

No there are plenty of people who say he is Berber. There is no doubt he was Roman cause that is where he lived the Roman empire. Even if he is Phoencian that just further proves my point and will show you why later. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

2) What was the race of the Phoenicians? Every serious scholar believes that their race was the same as that of the people of modern-day Lebanon who descend from them - that is, "white."

No I get to expose you for the ignrant liar you are. I'll be back. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

3) If evidence can be provided that Severus was of Berber origins, we'd have to also ask the question "What was the race of ancient Berbers?" Again, the answer seems to be "white," for all your claims to the contrary.

There is no proof of this but I looked up berbers and it said they most likely orignated from east africa and east african genetics,75%. None the less Berbers were native africans so you must explain how they could come from Ethiopia/Kenya (where all people are believed to come from) and went to a hotter Sahara desert and became white. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

4) I will note, finally, that I am using "white" in the broadest possible sense, as representing the population group that not only includes Europeans, but middle easterners and people from India.

So you include the small group of 20-30,000 Black Siddis in the Gujaret province of India. You include the 15% of black Saudis, you include the 50% of Yemenis with black ancestry. Lets not forget the Somalis come from Yemen and Yemen was part of Ethiopia for a while so I don't see how they get summed up as being white. Do you also include the Europeans who have black ancestry from the moorish conquest for 800 years or those in spain who have black ancestry from the carthgians. You can't count middle eastern people as white until you provide some proof(Inlcuding the ones who are obviously white). This is because you demand I prove that people like SS who are obviously black to be prooved. I do agree that they are caucsoid (Displaying white features thin lips) but so are some african americans who are called black. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

At any rate, until you are able to provide actual quotes from an actual source that makes an argument that Septimius Severus was black, I don't see that we have to include anything about this. john k 21:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I did. Did you even look at the websites? Check them out. It doesn't make sense for me to get a bunch of quotes and post them if your gonna say this site is full of crap so you look at them first it ill take 10 sec. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

User:Jmac800 has been going around to a lot of sites lately (check his contributions) asserting that a bunch of guys are black, and is wasting a lot of people's time. He has asserted in many cases that their facial characteristics (i.e. Socrates's flat nose) is evidence enough to say they are black. Jmac is either a troll or very borderline troll - please keep this in mind when responding to his edits or comments. FranksValli 22:51, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Lets keeps this discussion on SS and not on jmac800 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jmac800 (talk • contribs).

Alright, I'm not responding anymore. Jmac has yet to cite an actual source which makes an argument. I will continue to revert any attempts to add nonsense to the article. john k 01:22, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

A comment to this controversy. Looking at Severus' bust on the main page, he does not seem black to me, but I suppose there could have been some idealization from the sculptor, or I may just have misconceptions about what black people can look like, and in any case the skin colour (I assume the bust was originally painted, as was the custom with Roman statues) is no longer visible. But the question of whether Severus was black may not have a unique answer, anyway, because 'black' and 'white' do not mean the same in all cultures. A person may be considered black in the U.S., for example, and not be considered black in Brazil. In ancient Rome, where he lived, we don't know what he would have been called. Probably just Septimius. It's anachronistic to impose the labels of a modern society on a man who lived thousands of years ago, especially when other societies of the present may well apply different labels. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.136.232.3 (talk • contribs).

That's strange. Looking at Severus' bust on the main page, he could definitely be black or white. Ever seen Grady on Sanford & Son? Also; why, earlier, did someone say they were "avoiding the pro-black sites" as if being pro-black automatically makes someone a liar or otherwise innacurate? Is this a common racial attitude in orthodox history academia? Just curious.

HAM - SON OF NOAH, AND FATHER OF THE HAMITIC, I.E. AFRO-ASIATIC LANGUAGE FAMILY, AND OF THE NEGROID (BLACK)RACE.

The following 30 proto-nations that emerged from Babel were all Black, Negro, Negroid, whatever you wish to call it. This held true not only for those who settled the African continent, but those who settled the Eurasian continent as well. Their Negroid/Black attributes weren't caused by environment, but by God to hasten the migration from Babel. The Negroid features included a meium-to-tall stature with a more or less slendor, lean, wiry muscular build. They possessed black hair, brown eyes, and broad, flat facial features. (Note: Out of these 30 tribes, only 13 or so migrated to Africa (Nubians, perhaps some Sumerians = Yoruba, Egyptians, Libyans, Anamites, Lehabites, Naphuhites, Pathrusites, Philistines, Caphtorites, Phutites, some Hittites, and Phoenicians. Africa's Black peoples descend from these primarily. The rest more or less migrated to various parts of Eurasia, mainly Mesopotamia, Arabia, and farther east to Central and Southeast Asia to Australia, across the Bering Strait, Pacific and Atlantic Oceans to the Americas. Certain small settlements in the cold European areas where they dwindled due to rickets, i.e. Neanderthals.)

1)CUSH - (son of Ham) = Nubians

  2) SEBAH - (son of Cush) = Sabaeans
  3) HAVILAH - (son of Cush) = Hawlans
  4) SABTAH - (son of Cush) = Sabathes
  5) RAAMAH - (son of Cush) = Dravidians?
     6) SHEBA - (son of Raamah) = Shebahites
     7) DEDAN - (son of Raamah) = Dedanites
  8) SABTECHA - (son of Cush) = Sabactens
  9) NIMROD - (son of Cush) = Sumerians

10) MIZRAH - (son of Ham) = Egyptians

  11) LUD - (son of Mizrah) = Libyans
  12) ANAM - (son of Mizrah) = Anamites
  13) LEHAB - (son of Mizrah) = Lehabites
  14) NAPHTUH - (son of Mizrah) = Naphtuhites
  15) PATHRUH - (son of Mizrah) = Pathrusites
  16) CASLUH - (so of Mizrah) = Philistines
  17) CAPHTOR - (son of Mizrah) = Caphtorites

18) PHUT - (son of Ham) = Phutites 19) CANAAN - (son of Ham) = Canaanites

  20) SIDON - (son of Canaan) = Phoenicians
  21) HETH - (son of Canaan) = Hittites
  22) JEBUS - (son of Canaan) = Jebusites
  23) AMOR - (son of Canaan) = Amorites
  24) GIRGASH - (son of Canaan) = Girgashites
  25) HURR - (son of Canaan) = Hivites
  26) ARKAH - (son of Canaan) = Arkites
  27) SINN - (son of Canaan) = Sinites/Chinese
  28) ARVAD - (son of Canaan) = Arvadites
  29) ZEMAR - (son of Canaan) = Zemarites
  30) HAMATH - (son of Canaan) = Hamathites

That all 30 Hamitic tribes became Black at Babel, is documented more or less in ancient documents. This is well established for the 1) Cushites or Ethiopians, so by logical deduction, it's safe to deduce that 2 - 9, Cush's sons and grandsons and tribes were also Black. (Note: 9) Nimrod, a son of Cush, and father of the Sumerians. The Sumerians proudly described themselves as "black-headed people," or more precisely "head-of-black people" from original Sumerian. Now, since pretty much all ancient Mesopotamian inhabitants were either Semitic or Hamitic, and since they both all possessed brunet/black hair, the Sumerians weren't refering to hair color alone, skin color being the only other factor of distinction between themselves and the White Semites who lived close by and Japhethites i.e. Indo-Europeans who were a bit further away. Hammurabi referred to the dominant Mesopotamians (Sumerians) as "the blackheaded ones." (Note: The Yoruba, a Black people of western Africa claim to be descended from Nimrod, thus opening the possibility up for the Yoruba being descended from the Sumerians, which is more evidence for the ancient Sumerians being Negroid.) And since 10) Mizrah was Cush's brother, one can deduce that the original Egyptians were Black as well and again by logical deduction the same holds true for 11 - 17 who were Mizrah's sons and tribes. What race was Ceopatra? She was queen of Egypt late in Egypt's history which would have made the Egyptians quite mixed by this time mainly from the Hyksos invasion. Egypt ws also in the northeastern corner of Africa allowing settlers from plenty of White Semites and Japhethites tomove there. Cleopatra was a Ptolomy, which would have made her Greek in lineage. So, from this, you might deduce she was White, but since the majority of Egyptians by Cleopatra's time were quite mixed, though many were still doubtlessly Black while many were White too, it would be safest to assume her to have been mixed as well. Now whether or not she was predominantly Negroid or Caucasoid is not known. Now for the Canaanites. King Sennacherib referred to the Canaanites as "blackness of head people." Again, the evidence does support the notion that all the other Hamitic tribes were in fact, originally Black, so it stands to reason now that the Canaanites would also be Black. Logic again here would apply this to 20 - 30 as well, including 20) Sidon (Phoenicians), 21) Heth (Hittites), and 27) Sinn (Chinese). If the Canaanites were Black as the evidence suggests, then all his 11 sons would be too such as the original Phoenicians known as Sidonians, the original Hittites, and the original Chinese. The Canaanites as well as the Phoenicians early on lost most of their Hamitic tongue in favor of a Semitic tongue. This tells me that early on the Canaanites and Phoenicians who were originally Black, mixed in with various Semitic (White) tribes, thus over the next 1 to 2,000 years, they lost much if not most of their Negroid features. By the time of Carthage and Hannibal, the Phoenicians (who incidentally claimed to be Canaanites) were very mixed racially. Is it possible that Hannibal was Black? Yes. But it's also possible he was White. But, from the above evidence, I would have to say Hannibal probably resembled racially someone between The Rock and Prince, no pun intended. Whether he was more Black or White is not known. As for the Hittites, they would also have originally been Negroid, but when the Hittite nation became a major power in what is modern Turkey, they were already mixed as well. Evidence from ancient pictures depicting Hittites, some with Mongoloid features and others with White (Caucasoid) features. The linguistic evidence also verifies mixing since they eventually spoke a form of Indo-European (probably Greek) in place of their original Hamitic. Mongoloid simply means Mongolian-like. Mongoloids tend to possess both Negroid and Caucasoid features, some more of one and some more of the other. Some isolated tribes of Negroids also possess features usually associated with Mongoloids. Again, in the Hittites we see a mixed nation of Black and White. The Sinites or Chinese are another Hamitic tribe that eventually ended up in the Far East. A son of Canaan also, the earliest Chinese writings describe their first dynasties as being Black until later White peoples began migrating there. Again, makes plenty of sense since there are still areas of far eastern-southern Asia, Indonesian archipelago, and on down to Australia where there are still numerious Black people most of them surrounded by the vast Mongoloid (mixed) people. The Dravidians of the Indus civilization were described by the invading Aryans (Medes) as "a black and noseless people." Now obviously they had noses, but from a distance to an onlooker, especially a White one, broad flat noses against black faces would give the appearance of being noseless, although surely the Aryans new this. It's just a means of description.

The picture here is a pretty clear one and that is that the original 30 tribes/nations of Ham when they first migrated away from Babel some 4,500 years ago were originally Black/Negroid. Over time many tribes mixed with Whites, while others seemed to avoid for the most part being mixed. Just for the record, I am White, but I m not a Eurocentrist. On the flip side, I am no Afrocentrist either. Noah's Ark landed in the mountains of Ararat, which is on the continent of Eurasia. (Note: Europe and Asia are actually one single continent.) So, I guess you could call me a Eurasiocentrist. As to what continent Noah built the ark on, we will never know, since the pre-flood geography and topography was totally destroyed changed, rearranged, redone, moved, overhauled during the Noahic flood. So, sorry all you "Out of Africa" lovers, no evidence points to that conclusively. And for you White supremacists, sorry as well, no evidence for you either. Also to declare that anient people didn't notice skin color the way we do today is absurd. If a White man saw a Black man then he saw the same thing we do and vice versa. People back then most certainly saw and took notice of skin color. It's human nature then as well as now, no different.

What about Septimius Severus, was he Black? Well Blacks were the main peoples who migrated to Africa, but in the ancient times as well, soon after Babel, Whites did migrate to Africa, but were mainly confined to the extreme North African coast. Outposts of Ionians, Aeolians, Dorians, and Cypriots settled there. The Mediterranean was once known as the "Great Circle of the Uinuvu (Ionians)." Tripolitania is on the North African coast so it's possible Severus was White. But, North Africa was home to the much more numerous Blacks, so Severus could have been Black as well. Where one race borders another, mixing is an inevitable outcome. Since Egypt was very mixed by this time, it's also safe to assume the rest of northern Africa has become increasingly mixed as well (Berbers). This being the case and with the Roman occupation to boot, it would be safe to assume him to be White or at best mixed, but again, who knows, he very well could have been very dark or peraps even Black. Whether predominantly Black or White is not known.

Here below are the lists for the White race of mankind:

SHEM - SON OF NOAH, AND FATHER OF THE SEMITIC LANGUAGE FAMILY, AND OF THE MEDITERRANEAN BRANCH OF THE CAUCASOID (WHITE) RACE.

1) ELAM - (son of Shem) = Elamies 2) ASSHUR - (son of Shem) = Assyrians 3) ARPHAXAD - (son of Shem) = Chaldeans

4) SALAH - (son of Arphaxad) = Salahites
 5) EBER -(son of Salah) = Hebrews
 6) PELEG - (son of Salah) = Pelasgians
  7) JOKTAN - (son of Peleg) = Joktanites
   8) ALMODAD - (son of Joktan) = Al-morads
   9) SHELEPH - (son of Joktan) = Salifs
   10) HAZARMAVETH - (son of Joktan) = Hadramauts
   11) JERAH - (son of Joktan) = Jerahites
   12) HADORAM - (son of Joktan) = Adramites
   13) UZAL - (son of Joktan) = Azallas
   14) DIKLAH - (son of Joktan) = Diklahites
   15) OBAL - (son of Joktan) = Obalites
   16) ABIMAEL - (son of Joktan) = Abimaelites
   17) SHEBA - (son of Joktan) = Shebahites
   18) OPHIR - (son of Joktan) = Ophirites
   19) HAVILAH - (son of Joktan) = Euilats
   20) JOBAB - (son of Joktan) = Jobarites

21) LUD - (son of Shem) = Lydians 22) ARAM - (son of Shem) = Arameans

23) UZ - (son of Aram) = Uzites
24) HUL - (son of Aram) = Hulites
25) GETHER - (son of Aram) = Getherites
26) MASH - (son of Aram) = Lebanese

JAPHETH - SON OF NOAH, AND FATHER OF THE JAPHETIC, I.E. INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE FAMILY, AND OF THE NORDIC BRANCH OF THE CAUCASOID (WHITE) RACE.

1) GOMER - (son of Japheth) = Cimmerians

2) ASHKENAZ - (son of Gomer) = Scythians
3) RIPHATH - (son of Gomer) = Paphlagonians
4) TOGARMAH - (son of Gomer) = Armenians

5) MAGOG - (son of Japheth) = Magogites 6) MADAI - (son of Japheth) = Medes 7) JAVAN - (son of Japheth) = Ionians

8) ELISHAH - (son of Javan) = Aeolians
9) TARSHISH - (son of Javan) = Tartessians?
10) KITH - (son of Javan) = Cypriots
11) DODAN - (son of Javan) = Dorians

12) TUBAL - (son of Japheth) = Iberians 13) MESHECH - (son of Japheth) = Muskovites 14) TIRAS - (son of Japheth) = Thracians

Both these Semitic and Japhetic lines were White and were roughly very close in skin pigmentation, but the Semites (Mediterraneans) had brunet hair, brown eyes, and had the ability to get a dark brown tan relatively easy when in the sun, but areas unexposed to sun were light as could be. They were generally of a medium stature and of a medium-stocky build, with prominant aqualine facial features. Whereas the Japhethites (Nordics) had either blond to dirty-blond to sandy-blond to red hair, blue-green-gray eyes, and the ability to get a bronze tan, though not as easy as the Semites. They were generally of a medium-to-tall stature and medium-stocky build. They possessed sharp, stern facial features.

Bottom line, we may never know for certain what race some ancient figure was due to mixing, moving, invasions, language borrowing, migrating, assimilation and absorption. You can get a good idea about the broad demography but not always the individual.

Perhaps this material was helpful to you. Much Abliged, Billy, SouthernBoyWKG73@wmconnet.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.12.116.139 (talk • contribs).

You're using the Tower of Babel as a starting point to debate the historical ethnicity of a Roman Emperor? This is an encyclopedia not religious convention. When you learn how to deal with history as a historian you'll be taken seriously. Until then I suggest your writings above were a waste of time and quite frankly laughable to anyone with any serious background in history..Virgil61 11:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

In the life of Severus in HA (22.4-5) there is an anecdote about an omen which points towards the impending death/deification of Severus. One of his most scurrilous soldiers, an "Aethiops", i.e. black man, met him after his return from a victory and presented him with a crown made of cypress (which has connotations of death and the underworld) as a joke. Severus in anger ordered that the man be removed from his presence both because of the connotations of cypress and because of the man's ominous color (it is a combination effect), black; the rest of the anecdote is irrelevant. Now if Severus had been black himself as an Aethiops he would have hardly considered his own skin's color to be part of an omen, eh? Btw, I find it incredible that such a novelty as an "Aethiops" emperor would have escaped all ancient historians who dealt with Severus so that not a single one of them would mention it. Claiming that Severus was black is ludicrous, I have yet to see any evidence pointing to that direction while there is a wealth of evidence pointing to the contrary, i.e. that as descended from Phoenician stock (he probably learned Latin as a second language as his sister hardly spoke Latin) he was white (Phoenicians have never been mixed up with "Aethiopes" in ancient literature. As for Pescennius Niger being another "black emperor", this implies blatant ignorance of the narrative of the HA where it is clearly stated (6.5) that rumour had it that Pescennius had acquired his cognomen Niger by virtue of his black hair. I wish people read the ancient sources more and spurious secondary literature less; it only takes a cursory look through the HA or our other sources in order to disprove such ridiculous claims. Lucius Domitius 16:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

It's irrelevant what people in a region today looke like, are considered etc. Using that "logic" you will deduce that the Aborigines looked like Shane Warne, or the Cherokee look like George W. Bush. There is an abundance of material to show that the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Ancient Egyptians etc were all Greco-Roman looking. Just because today a region may have one group as a majority does not mean it was always so. The true people of North Africa are essentially extinct.....Username: not logged in 12:12pm 17 March 2006

[edit] Year of his birth

There seems to be some debate on whether he was actually born on 146 AD or one year earlier. [1] has 145, on the count of him being reported at his death to be sixty five years old and change. I am not sure which version is more believable. Any authorities that can clear this up? F1list 16:08, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe he was tanned?

There's a portait of Severus and his family (here or here) and he looks like a mediterranean man with tanned skin (e.g. like north africans nowadays), not a black african. --Lucio Di Madaura (disputationes) 17:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the page on Moors, it contains a reference to Herodotus (the ancient Greek historian), who mentions a light-skinned north Libyan population. It is entirely possible that Severus was a descendant of these Africans. The Dark 16:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed "He was one of the early Africans in history to gain fame..."

I've removed the second sentence of the article -- "He was one of the early Africans in history to gain fame outside of his native continent".

There were many earlier and more famous persons born on the continent of Africa -- the Macedonian-Greek Cleopatra, and the Phoenician-Punic Hannibal to name just two.

Also the phrasing implies there was some kind of Africa-wide fame to be had by natives of the continent that was ignored by Europeans up till this time. In fact famous North Africans were always well known to the Romans, and North Africa was culturally disconnected from Sub-Saharan Africa by the Sahara desert.

[edit] Libyco-Punic or Liby-Phoenician

The phrase Libyco-Punic is used in this article, Creasy uses the phrase Liby-Phoenicians to describe the same people. Liby-Phoenicians seems a more euphonious alternative. Would people object if I changed it? --Boreas 23:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

No objection here. Virgil61 19:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

=== Request to remove Severus and Pan-Africanist

Why do I get the feeling that there is more going on here than just adding text. This text could be more objective. Since there is no proper arguement for or against the claim that Severus was indeed or not a born African you should lay of the whole subject and state something like . . . "Some historians believe Severus has African ancestry. Historians are still debating the subject and more research is being done". The whole subchapter reads like slant aswell as Eurocentric prop., therefor it sounds partial and it has no place here. No one want's to read an encyclopedia which propagades ideas without soundproof historical back-up. That goes specifically to does who dismiss on first hand the idea that Severus could be of African stock. So keep your personal views out of it and try to be more accurate and restrain yourself from biased slur. --Glynn71 07:18, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course there's a proper arguement for his not being of African descent; source material indicates he wasn't. It specifically names his parents lineage. I'm not sure how much clearer it can be. Few historians are now debating this though a large number of non-historians are proponents of some sort of African origin due to their own agendas. That it sounds like Eurocentric prop might be more understandable if one knows we're talking about the Roman Empire not the Egyptian, Assyrian, etc. Be that as it may, sources also indicate a non-European lineage from Phoenicia and this has been stated. That doesn't seem to support the claim of Eurocentric prop. It's unfortunate you think putting forth historically accurate information is a personal view. Virgil61 08:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

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Category: B-Class biography articles