Talk:Sengunthar
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[edit] RESEARCH ARTICLES and INSCRIPTIONS: KAIKOLARS = DEVADASIS/ DEVARADIYARS
The Kaikolars are described in great detail in the following research articles and their identity has been clearly proven as the same terinja-Kaikolar Padai of the Chola empire. There is absolutely no question of any ambiguity. You can only deny in vain. Pathetic.
1. The Erotic Sculptures of India Y. Krishan Artibus Asiae, Vol. 34, No. 4 (1972), pp. 331-343
(proves that kaikolan musicians = devadasis) link 1: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dasi+kaikolan+musician link 2: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3648(1972)34%3A4%3C331%3ATESOI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2
2. Artisans in Vijayanagar Society, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, 417-444 (1985)
This research article explains the blood relation between the Devadasis and the Kaikolar. ("Devaradiyar (dancing girls who have very close kinship ties with the Kaikkolar
link 1: http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/22/4/417 link 2: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=devaradiyar+who+have+close+kinship Register for free -> http://www.sagepublications.com/sjofreeaccess/
3. Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck register here for free->http://www.sagepublications.com/sjofreeaccess/
This research article explains in vivid detail, the way the Kaikkolas used their women to enjoy special privileges in the Vijayanagar empire. (Text Quoted from article: "At least one woman in every Kaikkola household was, according to age-old tradition dedicated to the temple as a devaradiyar or devadasi. The devaradiyar enjoyed special privileges in the days of the Vijayanagar empire and were the only women permitted a direct audience with the king".
link2: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=at+least+one+woman+kaikkoli+household+devaradiyar+devadasi
4. Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck, register here for free->http://www.sagepublications.com/sjofreeaccess/
This research article (along with references to an inscription) describes how a devaradiyar or devadasi won special privileges for the Kaikkolas from the king Deva Raya II (A.D 1433)
5. Some Enquiries into the Condition of Weavers in Medieval South India, Indian Historical Review, Vol. VI, Nos. 1 and 2
6. This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.
"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411
To view the complete article just register, its free. Here are the links :
http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links
Venki Devadiya, should've held your tongue. I'll give you more and then some!!
Mudaliar 23:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Vijaya Ramasamy is a PANDARAM who tells they are SAIVA VELLALAR. Vijaya Ramasamy has no proffs to confirm her stories about KAI KOLAR who are weavers and the DEVADASIS who claims they are ISAI VELLALAR.
Pandarams are the traditional suppliers of their girls to Kai Kola Kshatriyas. When the power was shifted from kai Kolars, these PANDARAMS started supplying their girls to BRAHMANS.
Can this Vijaya Ramasamy come out from the closet to tell about the PANDARAMS and Brahmans?
[edit] Kaikolas cannot be classifed by the Aryan Varna caste system
Kaikolars cannot be classified by the Aryan Varna caste system. This is similar to putting a Arab or Jew or African or Chinese into Kshatriya, Vysya, etc. The Aryan Varna caste system is only for Aryans. Kaikolans are tamilians.
Which language group belong to ARYA VARNA CASTE SYSTEM?
Only Sonia Gandhi,not her children is now qualified to be an ARYAN in India and not others.
[edit] Who are the so called Aryans in India now?
[edit] Pallava are Brahmin
Pallavas are brahmins. They have made many inscriptions claiming that they are are brahmins of Bharadvaja gotra. Hence Pallavas are not considered as tamil kings.
Then what happened to the decendants of the Pallava kings in Tamil Nadu?
Pallavas never claimed as brahmans at the start of their power. Later only some Pallavas left some inscriptions as they belonged to Bharadwaja Gothra.
The early Pallavas belonged to Nanthi gothra. Pallavas used NANTHI (BULL) their emblem. Kaikolans are still belong to NANTHI GOTHRA.
I hope the pious DEVADASI system became a system of only dancing and prostitution after the demise of the PALLAVA empire. 70.49.117.55 04:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Sengunthar CN Annadurai is the founder of DMK
CN Annadurai is the founder of DMK and he is a kaikolan from Kanchipuram. This is a well known fact. ~ Founding a political party never deny a person's ancestry !
The writer must tell the meaning and history of the word KAIKOLAN! ~
== Bharathidasan a great poet who supported DMK is a Sengunthar. What about the Indian Communists who too do not support CASTE system? What is the purpose of the connection of the old caste system here?==
[edit] Sengunthars fought against the aryan Varna caste system
Read the works of CN Annadurai and Bharathidasan. Both of them fought against the Aryan Varna caste system.
Joti Basu too fight the Aryan Varna Caste system. 70.49.117.55 04:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
The great E M S Nampudripad who was a Brahman and high caste became a communist and created a new chapter against the CASTE system. There is no ARYAN in in India now. All the Indians are a MIXED tribes now. That was the thinking behind C N ANNADURAI or BHARATHIDASAN.
Is this Wekipedia advocate to follow a CASTE based system for INDIANS?
[edit] Notable persons
[edit] Why cannot others remember THILLAYADI VALLIYAMMA who was the first dead in the war of Mahathma Gandhi in S/Africa? Mahathma Gandhi adopted the spinning wheel of the weavers on the flag of congress party because the Kai Kola weavers who were the people prepared to sacrifice their lives for the freedom of India. No other castes came forward to die for the HINDU country except the Kai Kola =Kashatria Kula of Pallava origin who are the MODLEYs of S/Africa.
Tamil Nadu government built a state building in remembarance of this brave woman in Chennai
Kai Kolar still support CONGRESS and not DMK which is the CHILD of the Justice party and the Justice Party was supporting British rule.
DMK was founded by Sengunthar CN Annadurai of Kanchipuram. That is a sign of a Warrior by birth.
[edit] Dispute Resolution Survey
Due to the many revert wars going on between User-Mudaliar and other users including myself in this article Sengunthar, following the suggestion of the admin I propose that we conduct a survey among the editors of this article.
In the talk page, please state your opinion of two contending issues.
a. Why is the group Sengunthar being denigrated in this article ? Is it necessary to describe only about the false negative aspects of Kaikolars?
Your opinions should be brief. For example my opinion is:
This article is about Sengunthar created by Sengunthar. The name Kaikolar have been misused by the Isai Vellala group for their upliftment. Now they are properly called Isai Vellala and not Kaikolar. This is similar to many groups being called Reddy or Gounder or Mudaliar. So lets talk only about Sengunthar here. If we want we can always create a new article called Isai Vellalar
Note to User:Mudaliar -- let this be here along with your version of this article so people can understand what the dispute is about.
No sock puppets please. Venki 22:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Sengunthars have been trying to evade detection but have been unsuccessful. The relation between Devadasis and Sengunthars is clearly evident from all the research articles. All the authors have done research before stating these facts so you conducting this false survey is no good. I suggest you take up this issue with the TamilNadu government and personally contact these authors if you think these authors are upto no good. When you cannot accept numerous journal articles by differnet authors who in fact quote different sources then how do you intend to justify this lame survey of yours? Mudaliar 20:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
MUDALI is the caste name of KAI KOLA or SENKUNTHA people. For pride and upliftment VELLALAS and their laborers use MUDALI(YAR) with their names.
In these pages one sided opinions appear and others are deleted always.
Neither MUDALIAR or others are not ready to submit any thing to support their claims for the name MUDALI(YAR).
MUDALI is the direct translation of PALLAVA. If any one who know Sanskrit and Tamil well, agree with my view. VELLALAR never be part of any ARMY in the ancient times. So, the usage of MUDALIYAR by Vellalar is a fake idea for self-promotion.
Kaikolar are originally thevadiyaal. Kooti kudithuthaan you rose in the society. Now you want to cutoff your brethren and other kins saying you have no relation to devadasis. But historians chumma puttu puttu vachirukaanga. Better luck next life.Karikala Cholan 14:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your opinion User:Karikala Cholan. Do you think the C N Annadurai, became CM because of your reasoning. If we rose to this position by your reasoning how did you rise to your feudal position other than by sending your wives as concubines to Brahmins and Nayaks and British? After all you are only bastards of non-tamilians and hence were thrown out by the Tamil people out of Tamilnadu!! Cry as loud as you want but you are not coming back. Make sure you add your opinion on TMV and TMSV also!! Your erudite reasonings are always helpful. Let's see how you can make Telugu KKV into Tamil TMSV. Venki 03:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
- Venki (talk • contribs), nice try: You're now using socket puppets just to create an illusion that its in fact me so that ppl would see you in good light. You can pull all the tricks but these articles are here to stay. The sources each of the authors is quoting is also completley different from one another. Keep it flowing. Mudaliar 04:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Karikala Cholan
'If you are TAMIL, tell us the meaning of the word CHOLA!
Further history tells, Vellalas sent their girls to KAI KOLAR homes as DANCING MAIDS. Later the mix of Vellala women and Kaikola males created a new TRIBE which is known as ISAI VELLALAR who uses the VELLLALA caste name PILLAI for centuries. DEVADASIS belongs to RIGHT HAND caste classification along with VELLALA people. WHY?
If the DEVADASIS are KAI KOLA, why do they claim, they are ISAI VELLALAR?
Can Mudaliyar or other FAKES tell?
Can MUDALIYAR tell a list of the so called VELLALA generals who did the raids in ancient times? Vellalas were the farm laborers during the Pallava and Chola times. Later they became land owners during the British and low caste TELUGU times.A Pallava king known as KADU VETTI means destroyer of forests. Vellalas are the extraction of KALLAN(thieves) caste and employed by Kai Kolars during the time of Pallavas and CHOLAS. Vellalas sent their females to the kai Kola Warriors in order to get favours. That is why now these Vellalas use the caste name of Kai Kolar MUDALI with them
==Kallans(THIEVES) are the criminals and they are still involved in crimes and prostitution. In every Tamil city, you can see, Kallan women are working as prostitutes -Ranga-==
[edit] Kaikolar na thevadiya kootam. Ithu inniku nethu illai otha, kaalakaalamaaga ithaanda unga thozhil. Poi unga appa kettu paaru, oh saaari, unakuthaan athu yaarnu theriyathey. Unga amma oru thevadiyaaaal. Neethaanda kaikola baadu. haaahaaa
Who are the so called kings from Kallan and marawan? hahahahaha
hahahahahahahaha
Christian missionaries always eye the people who are well connected to the Hindu temples and publish wrong information about them. Kai Kola warriors were the GUARDIANS of the HINDU temples for centuries and many of them refused conversion. This is another reason for the stories. Vellalas never participated in any war in the ancient times. Later they supported all invaders and got lands. -Ranga-
[edit] ranga thevadiyaaa paiyyaaa okkaley ennada baadu sengunthar, okkaley entha baaduraa kaikolar thevadiyaaalku senguntharnu peru vachathu ? senkoothi thaaan correectu. kaikolar thevadiya ooroda paduthu paduthu vatha koothi red ayirukkum.
[edit] What is the meaning of the above barking?
[edit] Hello Mudaliar, why dont u just state your opinion on this proof of yours about TMSV? Why are accusing me of everything under the sun, but not stating your opinion. After all, you started slandering Kaikolar and deleting all evidence of KKV/TMV. Why so rabid then and so silent now? Is TMSV fake? Forget about kaikolar and everything else. A simple question a simple straight answer. before you decided to remove all evidence of KKV, you must have a reason for doing that. Who are KKV/TMV? Who are TMSV?
Simple and easy. The fundamental question is why are you so intent on hiding all info about KKV/TMV? Venki 21:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I have been providing research articles while you've just been accusing me of slandering. These papers and books were neither written yesterday nor did I manufacture them out of thin air. Why do all authors pick on the Kaikolars? None of them are quoting one another. On a different note, why are you asking me questions? Go figure yourself. I thought you knew everything. we're on opposite sides, remember?
[edit] Kaikolar confusion and clarification
The devadasi system has been abolished for over 60 years. Even 100 years ago, the caste for devadasis was recognized as Isai Vellalar. Please see the websites below.
The origin of Devadasis was from Isai Vellalar as seen in this article [1]. Narthaki is a well known website of the patrons of the dance form Bharathanatyam. The article is by a renowned author.
See this newspaper page from a renowned national newspaper Deccan herald. [2].
All the reference journal articles given by User:mudaliar cannot be referred to any more. So either we should fix their links or remove them.
So even though one would like to think that user:mudaliar made a genuine mistake, I dont think so. His editing started only after the revert wars in the article Mudaliar. Please see the history and time stamp.
He has made these edits because of the prejudice he has against the group kaikolar as can be seen from the edits and reverts he made in the articles kaikolar kaikolan Sengunthar Sengundhar. Please see the history and time stamp.
To study the etymology of the word Kaikolar, kai meant hand and Kol simply meant stick in Tamil.
Defintion from university of chicago website - http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/fabricius/ via link
kol (p. 315) [ kōl ] , s. a rod or stick in general, tati; 2. sceptre, government, cengkol; 3. a pencil used for blackening the eyelids; 4. a measuring rod or pole, alavukol; 5. a staff to lean upon, unyukol; 6. balance scales, tulakkol, Libra of the Zodiac; 7. a horse whip, cavukku; 8. a branch of a tree, kompu; 9. an arrow, ampu; 10. a spear, itti; 11. roundness, tiratci; 12. ploughshare, kozu; 13. lute string, yaznarampu.
In the case of Sengunthar they go by the name Kaikolar (kai=hand kol=spear or sceptre) as they were warriors during ancient Chola period. Similarly it is used by isai (isai=music in tamil) Vellala (meant farmer or producer; in this case producer of music) to mean (kai=hand kol=lute string).
It is customary for a caste to have more than one name in Tamilnadu. Other castes such as Tondai-Mandala-Vellala use the name Kondai-katti-Vellala; Nattu-Kottai-Chetti go by the name Nagarathar. Nadars go by the name Chanar.
User:Mudaliar has maliciously used this two name system to slander the Sengunthar. In modern times i.e, from 1900 onwards Isai-Vellalar have stopped using the name Kaikolar and it is exclusively used by Sengunthar.
So I suggest we remove all references to Kaikolar or Sengunthar in this article. However to prevent any future confusion, it is better we add the caveat that they Isai-Vellalar used Kaikolar as their alternate name along with the proper etymology. So all reference materials prior to the period 1900 such as literature and inscriptions are referring to Isai-Vellalar and not the Sengunthar.
Hope this clarifies the issue for one and all.
Venki 02:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Venki123 (talk • contribs) has been constantly vandalising and harassing all the editors (just go through his contributions and you will realise the way he uses digusting words to intimidate and slander anyone who isn't a Kaikolar). Now all of a sudden he has made a complete U-turn, and is attempting to play "nice guy" (thanks to all the authors who have gone to great lengths to describe the Kaikolar caste in vivid detail) because of the research articles and the numerous academic references. His lame attempt at proving that the kaikolars are not devadasis does not hold water against all these academic references which clearly prove otherwise: that the devadasi community in South India was clearly an offshoot of the Kaikolar/ Sengunthar community exclusively. The Kaikolars are clearly described as the Kaikolars of the terinja-Kaikolar Padai. Hence there is no room for any ambiguity in this issue. These academic references are here to stay.Mudaliar 02:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Mudaliyar! How did you become a mudaliyar? If the Vellalas who never be a part of any army under any TAMIL ruler,claim they are MUDALI(YAR), they will soon tell they are the descendants of Pallava rulers and Kshatriyas. hahahahahahaha
You mention some articles written by some people who are not Tamil or Hindu. They never go in search of Tamil history. You failed to tell why do the so called DEVADASIS call themselves ISAI VELLALAR. You misrably failed to tell why DEVADASIS were classified as RIGHT hand people along with Vellalas during the CHOLA RULE. CHOLAS never identified the DEVADASI with KAI KOLAR. Are you trusting WHITE CHRISTIANS in history telling of INDIA?
You are happy to degrade Senkunthars/Kai Kolar by citing some books written by some one who has no knowledge of TAMIL or HINDU traditions. KAI KOLA rulers had patronage for DANCING and HINDU religeon. Mixed relationships are common. See again the film KONJUM SALANGAI which will help you a little to understand the relationship between Kai Kolar and dancers.
[edit] Kaikolar Reference articles
I have given two easily accesible references of independent websites. One is Narthaki a website which promotes the dance art of Devadasis as Bharathanatyam. The second is a well known newspaper. If any of the articles cited as reference by User:Mudaliar are accesible, I'll be glad to read them. If they are not accesible then please remove them. Again what matters is the exact proper name of the group that dedicated girls to Devadasi system. The reference articles given by me clearly state they are called Isai Vellalar as indicated by other editors before the vandalizing by User:Mudaliar. I don't think a world renowned newspaper such as Deccan Herald would have a vested interest in hiding the true name of the caste which contributed girls to this devadasi system. See the first few paras of this Talk:Devadasi page and the history of this article Devadasi. Only User:Mudaliar insists on using the Kaikolar name which is no longer being used by the Isai-Vellalar group of people. This is because User:Mudaliar himself belongs to a sub branch of Vellalar similar to Isai-Vellalar and hence is ashamed and has a vested interest in denigrating Sengunthar. Venki 03:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- These are valid research articles and academic references. Go to a library where you can access them. These are not going to be removed just because you cannot access them. As for me wanting to slander the Sengunthar group, this is a pretty lame reason. Why don't you think and come up with some more lame reasons. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mudaliar (talk • contribs) 04:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] More citations that Devadasis are Kaikolars
1. http://books.google.com/books?q=kaikolar+devadasi 2. http://books.google.com/books?vid=030r8wCzi070dfHyMo&id=TTQKoe4eXzgC&q=kaikolar+devadasi&dq=kaikolar+devadasi&pgis=1
This is the Madras District Gazetteer recognized by the Government of India. I have provided the google search just to show that I'm not manufacturing anything.
Quoted from the book: ..every Kaikolar family was formerly expected to set apart one girl to be dedicated as Devadasi to a temple..
3. Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith
http://books.google.com/books?q=devadasi+dedication+kaikkolar+devadasis
Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about the Kaikolar Devadasis and the Brahmin men.
4. Donors, Devotees, and the Daughters of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu - Page 158 by Leslie C. Orr - 2000 - 305 pages
Again here is a snapshot of the exact same page which clearly describes the Kaikkolars as devadasis. (zoom in and scroll below):
Again quoted from book:
Kaikolar girls were dedicated as devadasis, ..and the children of temple women occasionally married Kaikkolars
These are all valid sources and prove once again that the devadasis originated from kaikolars. The kaikolars are clealry described as the weavers and terinja-kaikolar padai. So its not ambiguous.Mudaliar
[edit] Girls are from the Nattuvans and Nadeshwaram players and not from any weavers family which maintain the old tradition of Pallavas. I hope you failed to inquire why the Nattuvans or Nadeshwaram players failed to tell why they call themselves ISAI VELLALAR
[edit] But MUDALIAR, your sources failed to tell why the so called DEVADASIS call themselves ISAI VELLALAR or they were classified as RIGHT hand caste during the time of CHOLA rulers. The donors of the girls were VELLALANS and not Kai Kola warriors. Vellalas donated their girls to KAI KOLA royals in the past. The mix race then became ISAI VELLALAR or NATTUVANS.
Tamils are still unable to find their own history and trust in story telling of the WHITE fellows. Tamils lost their rule for more than 1000 years. Tamils now tell all the people who ruled them were TAMILS except British.
TAMILS tells that MOOVENTHAR were Chera, Chola and Pandia and not telling Pallava were their kings. But history tells PALLAVAS ruled Tamil country for more than nine centuries. How are these Tamils so stupid in hiding their own history?
Further TAMIL authors tells CHERA, CHOLA, and PANDIA were TAMILS. I asked many people who bark much about Tamil and still they do not know the TAMIL MEANING of the words= CHERA, CHOLA or PANDIA. If these three words are from TAMIL language, they must carry meanings in TAMIL but, Alas, Tamil Pandits have no answer. Now some TAMILS who are ENGLISH educated (Not Tamil educated) try to tell the history of TAMIL country which was ruled by non-Tamil rulers for thousands of years.
What was the situation of S/India in 500 BC or 2AD? Tamil country was under occupation by a group called KHALABRAS for three centuries and it is called the DARK period of TAMIL history. Who were these KHALABRAS? No one knows them but some opine as some African tribes came to South India through the coast of Malabar and occupied Tamil country. SAI BABA and his HAIR of NEGROID origin is a popular example. In Tamil country too any one can witness the same NEGROID features among Tamils.
PALLAVA rulers who started their rule in Andhra and later extended to Tamil country after chasing these KHALABRAS. I hope the KALLAN caste must be the product of the KHALABRAS. The Sangam period Tamil Race was completly destroyed and assimilated with new comers in the early 3AD.
Tamil language has many problems in identifying others words. Tamils changed HAMILTON to BARBER. Governor HAMILTON built a bridge and named it as Hamilton Bridge but Tamils changed it to AMBATTAN BRIDGE and later they anglised as BARBERS BRIDGE. This is an example how did the Tamil language created Historical mischief. Read R.B. Sethu Pillai's "ALAYUM KADALUM". This is a recent event after the British. Under these circumstances, how can the Tamils identify anything of PALLAVA rulers who created the present day lagacies of TAMIL CULTURE? The same way Tamils now try to give meaning to KAI KOLAR. Pallavas used PALI =Prakrit at first and later Sanskrit and Grantha which is still used by TAMIL BRAHMANS. Tamil Kai Kola came from PALI KHAI KULA =KShatria KULA and not like the stories like Kai=hand and Kol= Shuttle. KULAM or GOTHRA is originated from PALI or SANSKRIT. many try to tell that KOL is SHUTTLE in Tamil. This is a fun of all times. KOL like COAL = Stick. Khai is a Pali word for Kshatria and it became KAI in Tamil. TAMIL is an old language but a language with inadequacies to describe words from other languages.
DANCING is part of HINDU tradition. Hindu god SHIVA is called NADA RAJA(N)=KING of DANCES in Tamil. Why? Pallavas were strong HINDUS as their descendants Kai Kolar. RANGA PATAKA=Jewel of Dancers was the name of the Queen of Nandhi Varman who was a Pallava King.
Brits and the Christian missionaries know this matters better than Tamil people but what is their mission in India? Both Muslims and Christians are still try to destroy the Hindu Basics in India through many means. In the South India, Brits failed to create Hindu-Muslim devide like in North but they created some baseless devide between Hindu religion and Tamils by creating Arya -Dravida stories. Christian missionaries are working so hard to destroy HINDU traditions like the MUSLIM invaders. They bark against DANCING and try to degrade the HINDU DANCING traditions even today in India but these CHRISTIAN missionaries never open their mouth against the DANCING of CHRISTIANS in the West or Americas. The converted population of Christians and muslims in India never question the dancing of Christians or Arabs. That is why they feed the local population with venom against HINDU traditions of DANCING. That is why they created stories joining DANCING and PROSTITUTION. Holy Dancing traditions of Hindus reduced to prostitution after the Muslim and British invasion. Both parties are anti-Hindu.
How many women from the Kai Kolar in the CINEMA now?
The so called Dravida Race was destroyed long... long.. ago. SANGAM which is a barrowed word from PALI=Prakrit language, period Tamil literature had no news about the date or time of writting. Why? Tamils did not followed any CALENDARS on those days. Hindu Calendar became a tradition after the PALLAVA rule. Present day TAMIL language has more than half of the words originated from PALI and SANSKRIT.
To fix the date of SILAPATHIKARAM, you need the PALI TEXT=Maha Vamsa of Sri Lanka and nothing available in India now. Even the Ashoka Pillars of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan were identified as ASHOKA pillars after the translation of the same PALI text of Sri Lanka by Germans in the late 1920s. Check the Royal Asiatic journals for more information about ASHOKA pillars. The inscriptions on those pillars had no words of ASHOKA but mention only a KING PRIYADARSHANA. Historians found ASHOKA and PRIDARSHANA were same after the translation of Sri Lankan MAHA VAMSA written in PALI language which was used by ASHOKA empire.
I tell these facts to confirm the Kai Kolar = Khai Kula people are the decendants of the PALLAVA = MUDALI.
The Devadasis are a mixed tribe of KAI KOLAR = Kshatria and the local VELLALA women. Better try to a film KONJUM SALANGAI. Tamils trust cinema more than History!
Without knowing anything of the past, some try to tell history according to the current conditions of the Kai Kola people. -RANGA-
- Most of the articles quote Indian and Tamil authors only. As for foreign authors, they are very accurate about the Kaikolar. For example, have you read Mattison Mines: Warrior Merchants? Are you telling me he does not know anything about Kaikolar? You're just saying this as you're a Kaikolar and I can understand that.
Yes. Whiteman cried and created stories that Pallavas are of Iranian origin without knowing any basics of Indian traditions or history. Mattison too the same and he never consulted any Kai Kolar. Even the Tamilised Kai kolars too dont understand the meaning of the word KAIKOLA which is a Tamilised or Telugised PALI word=KHAI KULA =Kshatria Kula. Now you guys donot know anything about PALI language or its impact on other Indian languages. For example Tamil Brahmans only use the word IYER. Do you know how and why?
[edit] Proof for Kaikola dancers (devadasis) and Kaikolar soldiers as separate entities
According to A Journey from Madras through the Countries of Mysore, Canara, and Malabar. Volume 3 (First published 1807 AD) By Francis Hamilton Buchanan, the Kaikolan dancing women and musicians formed a separate caste from the martial-caste Kaikolans even though they had similar sounding caste names. The musicians and dancing girls who called themselves Kaikolan to mean holders of lute musical instrument. This should not be confused with the group Sengunthar who use the name Kaikolar which meant holders of spears. Venki 17:11, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
KAI KOLA is a TAMIL corruption of the PALI word KHAI KULA which means KSHATRIA KULA who were soldiers and spear throwers.
Those dancers or DEVADASIS used the word KAIKOLAR for their pride and their ancestoral connection to the PALLAVA ROYALS. But they are a separate people from the REAL Pallava=Mudalis.
Now the Vellalans use MUDALI(YAR) for pride while the word MUDALI is the caste name of KAI KOLAR or the decendants of the PALLAVA rulers.
To find the meanings of the words through TAMIL is a disaster for history or research. Tamil language has problems and you cannot find the real meanings of the words which are TAMILISED.
Indian historians who are all ENGLISH educated and have little knowledge of the OLD INDIAN LANGUAGES like PALI and SANSKRIT. Few like K.A. Nilakanta Sastri had the knowledge to find the real meanings of the Tamil words and origins
The barkings against the Kai Kola warriors are coming from the CHRISTIAN hoodlums. They know well the KSHATRIA =Kai Kola caste is a defender of HINDU religion and traditions. They need something to degrade the the Hindus who are supporting Hindus.
[edit] Proof for Kaikolars and Kaikolar Devadasis not being separate entities:
No they were not: see academic references below Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith
http://books.google.com/books?q=devadasi+dedication+kaikkolar+devadasis
Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about the Kaikolar Devadasis and the Brahmin men.
Donors, Devotees, and the Daughters of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu - Page 158 by Leslie C. Orr - 2000 - 305 pages
Again here is a snapshot of the exact same page which clearly describes the Kaikkolars as devadasis. (zoom in and scroll below):
Again quoted from book:
Kaikolar girls were dedicated as devadasis, ..and the children of temple women occasionally married Kaikkolars
These are all valid sources and prove once again that the devadasis originated from kaikolars. The kaikolars are clealry described as the weavers and terinja-kaikolar padai. So its not ambiguous.
Why are your sources silent on the names like ISAI VELLALAR =DEVADASI or PANDARAM =SAIVA VELLALAR?
[edit] Proof for Kaikolars and Devadasis are separate entities:
' 'Please don't confuse with that devars are related to vellala,the history of vellala are as follows they used to wove thier girls to the kings and brahmins as thevraadiyars.still now they will do the job of barathanatiyam dancing so called (thevdiya kacheri)and musicians the list of predominent vellalars doing the same buisness are as follows. here is the list of vellala thevdia families who is under traditional musicians and dancers
vazhuvoor ramaiapillai he is a vellalars
valaiyapatti subrmaniam thol thatti he is vellalar
hari dwara mangalam palanivel pillai
madurai mpn ponnuswami pillai
namagiripettai krishnan pillai
karaikuruchi arunachalam pillai
thiruvaduthurai raja rattinam pillai
all these peoples are vellalars in performing their traditional dance and music.these vellalars are equvalent to ettappans of ancient tamilnadu changing their title as thevar,mudaliyars according to the kingdoms which ruled them.' the list of communities formed by the vellalas by woving their daughters are as follows. vellala woved their daughters to ramnad agamudayars then formed servaikarars vellala woved their daughters to nagarathar formed nattu kottai chetty's vellala woved their daughters to kannada gowdas formed kongu vellala gownders vellala woved their daughters tu tuluvars of karnataka formed tuluva vellalars from here it is clear that vellala comunity is woving community to any body to attain their position to that respective kings.in cholas history every body knows kodumbalur velir not mudali velir means vellalar he woved his grand daughter to rejaraja chola if vellalas are kings lineage the kodumbalur vellalars grand daughter will be th queen of rajaraja but she was not the queen because she was a woved as thevdia to king rajaraja.
'no body can name a single kaikola doing these thevdia jobs only the vellalars are doing the music and dancing still now every year at thiruvaiyar thiagaraja aradhanai along with brahmins. this is the solid proof that vellalas will do any thing to get upliftment for their community.according to the place they will change their title as devars,mudaliyars,pillai,gownders,chetty's even british and portugeselords etc.'
HERE is the list of conjeevaram mudaliars or senguntha mudaliars
who fought in srlanka captured and controlled the places near jaffna.
Pallavan Kanchi (Veliyoor) Kalingarayan Kanchi (Kattodai) Maniparman Kanchi (Puththoor) Mannadukondamuthali Kanchi (Irupalai) Veeranarayanan Kanchi (Mathakal) Sethirayan Kanchi (Mathakal) Seyarasasekaramuthali Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Vittathevan Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Ulagukavalan Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Punniyapooban Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Vinayagapooban Kanchi (Mavittapuram) Thaninayagamuthali Seyyar (Neduntheevu).
kaikolars may be having kinship with devarradiars or isaivellalars
because the donars are vellalars,But the Klanship of devaradiars are clearly prooves that they are vellalars. Kaikolars won't change there tile as pillai,gownder,chetty where vellars there traditional habit changes the titles according the places,Why the vellalars are white skin and vegetarians,Other mudaliar's are nonveg,Because they are the first donors of there girls to king's and brahmin priests. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.101.45.171 (talk) 06:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
@ this white? nice logic, heehee: [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13],[14]
and yeah on a different note the ppl you're quoting as Kaikolar is definitely wrong: check this:
http://noolaham.net/library/books/02/101/101.htm
quoted from book KailayaMalai accepted and verified by Sri Lankan Tamils. So next time provide reference: "One day a flute-player (Yalpana) went to his court and played on his flute so charmingly that the king was greatly pleased and he made a gift of the tract of land which is henceforth called Yalpanam (Jaffna), meaning the flute-player's land. The flute-player. having received the land, rule over it for a long time. After his death, there was a short interregnum. Seeing that the country was suffering without a king, Pandi Malava. son of Selvataja of Ponpattiyur who belongs to a high Vellala family, which held the hereditary right of handing over the crown to the officiating priest on the occasion of the coronation ceremonies of the kings of Madura, went to the prince Singai Ariyan, the son of Pandiya Sekara, then ruling over Madura and begged of him that he might become the king of Jaffna. To whioh, the prince readily consented and went over to Jaffna with his retinue and founded the town of Nallur."
"The next was the Vellala of the family of him who shed over kamban a shower of gold for the work of Erezhupatu, whose country was Tondainade, who had a widespread name, who used to wear a lotus garland and whose name was Maanadukanda Mudali. He was made to reside at Irupalai. The next was the Vellala of Seyur, who was as wealthy as Indra, and who never deviated from the path of visture. whose garland was of water lilies. Whose fame was great and whose paternal and maternal lines were matchless and pure and whose name was Taninayaga. He was made a chief of Neduntiva. The next was the Vellala of Kanchi, whose name was Pallava. He with two other chiefs, was placed at Velinadu" Mudaliar 02:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC) I think now user mudaliar is claiming all kanchi mudaliars are vellala.great joke.
"Kailaya Malai" was came into existense after the PORTUGEUSE rule of Jaffna. Even the "YALAPANA VAIPAVA MALAI" too came during the rule of DUTCH in Sri lanka. These old texts gives no idea about the KINGS of Jaffna because no HINDU kings were known to the author of KailayaMalai or Yalpana Vaipava Malai.
Kailaya Malai never talk anything about the KSHATRIYAS who ruled Jaffna.
Nallur is the Rajadani of the Jaffna Kingdom which was destroyed by the PORTUGEUSE with the help of the coolies from MALABAR, KERALA. The decendants of the coolies brought to Jaffna by Portugeuse for the tobacco and Chilli plantations were classified as FARMERS by DUTCH rulers in the 17th century. After that these malayala coolie descendants started to call thems selves VELLALA.
The relatives of the last Jaffna King Para Nirupa Sinha Mudali are still live in Nallur, Jaffna. They are all Kai Kolars or SENKUNTHANS. The so called vellalas in Jaffna are the stooges of British and all other invaders who were the destroyers of the HINDU religion.
The Christian churches in Jaffna started to cry that the Christians are the HIGH caste and the Catholic Bishops of Jaffna then started to add PILLAI with their names while they are all the decendants from the MALABARI PARAYANS who became CATHOLICS during the time of PORTUGUESE.
Jaffna Vellalans are FAKE and of MALABARI descendants. Jaffna Vellala storey is a fun. DNA tests will lead them to KERALA PARAYANS and not wit TAMIL Vellala caste.
