Talk:Seneca nation

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View comments (edit) This Seneca Page is suppose to be about the Seneca Nation, yet as of Nov. 13th 2006, everything that has been written explaining the Seneca Nation has been edited to represent a view that is overtly opposed to the existence of the Seneca Nation and its citizens. This is wrong and extremely biased, yet not a single Wikipedia user or monitor has noted this discrepancy. It is my opinion that Wikipedia users and monitors do not know. Now they do. So I must ask why are Wikipedia monitors allowing overtly hostile and anti-indian hate group leaders to mercilessly edit the Seneca Nation page, and reverting edits that are legitimately made to assist in the production of a page that fully represents the Seneca Nation? There are legitimate experts on Seneca Nation history and contemporary issues that are attempting to edit this page, yet instead, anti-Indian bias and hatred is consistently edited back in. Edits that provide NPOV content about the Seneca Nation is consistently reverted to the content that represents the POV of a racists and overtly anti-Indian hate group. I am formally requesting the assitance of any interested monitor to investigate the recent edits to the Seneca Nation page. Please begin by investigating the leader of an anti-Indian hate group located in Western New York called the UCE-Niagara Chapter which is lead by Daniel T Warren. His username is dtwarren and he has provided unsolicited information on the Seneca Nation page (and other native pages), along with other members of this organization. These edits are an outrage to the Seneca Nation and if permitted to continue are akin to Wikipedia allowing the KKK to mercilessly edit the NAACP page, or permitting the Neo-Nazi party leadership to consistently provide content on the Jewish Holocaust page. If these afforementioned actions are permissible, then please continue to permit UCE-esque content to be inserted onto the Seneca Nation page. However, a disclaimer from the Seneca Nation must be inserted that highlights the misinformatin provided about the Seneca Nation. This disclaimer will direct users to correct information about the Seneca Nation that is located off of the Wikipedia site (at the top of the page--not at the bottom). This is not a discprepancy about a date or a minor edit, but a serious action taken by certain individuals that seek to cause serious damage to the Seneca Nation and its citizens. This action also represents the legitimacy of Wikipedia, as a source of information that truly represents the topic under discussion. Until a monitor takes these concerns seriously, I will continue to edit this page on a massive scale. Any monitor or editor can look at the edits I have provided to this page already and the massive content I have introduce to this page. All of it is about the Seneca Nation, non of it is about some outside organization that is seeking to gain a voice on this page. As such, I will be edited the Seneca Economy again. I ask that if you feel a specific part of it is a POV that you edit that, not revert the whole thing. Also, I will be editing out all edits by individuals that I know to be associated with anti-indian hate groups. I will be noting these in the Summary as a known Anti-Indian hate group member and I will cite the group. Finally, I will adding considerable content at a time. The Seneca Nation has been in existence for over 4,000 years. Thus there is a lot to cover. I can cover this information and provide it in a manner that can and should be edited; however, I will make it my priority to edit out all non-related Seneca Material off of this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by scuggy (talk • contribs) 19:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"Contact with Colonial Minded Oppressors"

Heh.. sounds a bit biased? I agree that some of the article's text is Euro-centric and needs work, but I'm not sure whether the Seneca were the victims and the Europeans/Americans the oppressors. I'd agree that by the 19th century it ended up that way, but my understanding is that for a century or two before that, the Seneca and the Iroquois in general were as powerful or more than the European colonists -- that while the Europeans did try to take advantage of the Seneca and Iroquois as best they could, the Seneca and Iroquois did much the same -- and managed to become the most powerful Indian nation in America for a long time, with the ability to dictate terms to both Europeans and other Indians.

I hope I don't offend in saying these things. I have tremendous respect for Native Americans, Iroquois and Seneca in particular. I come from Buffalo, New York, and was fairly ashamed to learn how the land I grew up in was taken from the Seneca. I had to learn it myself, it was not something taught in school. I think American history has been and continues to be too biased toward Europeans, with the Indians put into the role of savages, perhaps noble savages, but in any case of little import. It maddens me to read about Euro-American pioneers "blazing trail into the wilderness" or how before the Euro-Americans came, America was in a pristine and natural ecological state, as if there were no people here at all.

Yet I cannot subscribe to the notion that the Europeans were always the Bad People and the Indians always the victims. By the 19th century it may have ended up much like that, but for the 2 centuries before that, it was often the Indians who had the upper hand, as far as I can tell -- and they yielded their power in many ways, good and bad.

Just some thoughts. I say them because it seems that this page is particularly dense with the suggestion of Indians as innocent victims and Euro-Americans as evil. Pfly 08:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Seneca Economy 2 Anti-Indian Hate Group Leaders editing Seneca Page 3 Seneca Nation of Indians 4 Kinzua Dam 5 Oklahoma Project 6 Should we include these references also ?

[edit] Seneca Economy

There is no 1826 Treaty at Buffalo Creek only the 1838 and 1842 treaties with the Seneca were at Buffalo Creek.

The Senecas have litigated their claims that the 1842 Treaty of Buffalo Creek or the 1794 Treaty of Canandaigua give them an exemption from collecting taxes from non-members and to date they have lost in court on those claims. Acting as if these issues were never raised and decided is certainly POV.

I corrected the treaty reference added a cite to the Seneca's actual position on this issue and reverted the history of the fight over taxation. --Dtwarren 00:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Indian Hate Group Leaders editing Seneca Page

Wikipedia users. Please note that the constant POV insertions on this page that do not belong. This page is about the Seneca Nation (historical up to contemporary) and is not about one person or small group of 30 or less people that hate Indians and want to get their message out about how bad Indian Nations and people are. The information provided by dtwarren above comes from the viewpoint of anti-Indian. If you do not know what it is to be anti-Indian, then please look as a reference to the page on anti-Semitism.

Therefore, the information about the Seneca Nation that revolves around the Seneca Nation will be included on this page (btw -- the Seneca Nation has been around for thousands of years and this information needs to be put up instead of constantly re-editing some anti-Indian bias).

Let me restate what I have been stating to other wikipedia editors: If you wish to allow and assist an anti-Indian leader to continue to add biased, negative, and non subject matter information on this page, then please do so. Do so, if you would also assist a Neo-Nazi leader in writing about the jews on the WWII Holocaust page, or the KKK leaders writing on the catholic, jewish, or NAACP pages.

If you are internet savvy, it will not take you long to find out that the organization run by dtwarren is an anti-Indian hate group. So, now that you know, will you continue to assist in the propagation of anti-Indian hate? Or will you assist in making this page something that rises above it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Scuggy (talk • contribs) 20:59, November 22, 2006 (UTC).

Thanks for the info, Scuggy. I'll look into it. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Scuggy, we see your point, but you don't make your case very well by deleting large sections of referenced material, and replacing it with your unreferenced material. When you do that it will simply be reverted. Make your case point by point, in smaller bites, with references, and you will be able to get a hearing better. Significant changes are best discussed on the talk page first. We want the article to be as accurate as possible. Pollinator 15:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I am new to this process and will make mistakes, but I have been taking time out over the past months to learn more about the wikipedia process instead of editing. I continue to ask for understanding and for a little "walk in my shoes" perspective for my past edit "chunks". I find this situation outrageous, especially since I have extensive knowledge and information to share (look at the content I have provided, especially literature). I will back up everything I submit; and other submission should be held to the same standard. And I want this article to be as accurate as possible, because I am Seneca. This entire page needs significant changes, including the way it is structured and even a majority of space for a non-Eurocentric and non-Americancentric perspective (which currently dominates a page that is about an Indigenous group, very odd indeed). I ask of all the editors to this page, who is to provide this perspective? An anthropologist, history teacher, the person who took one class on natives in college, a leader of an anti-Indian hate group? Or say, a recognized and educated member of the people being described? Scuggy 17:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Seneca Nation of Indians

I have noticed that an article has been started for the Seneca Nation of Indians which raises the question what should be the direction of this page. If this page is to contain information on the original Seneca Nation (Tribe) then the material that is dated after approximately 1848 (the date the Seneca Nation adopted its constitution and form of governance) should be moved to Seneca Nation of Indians or Tonawanda Band of Seneca Indians. How should we proceed, go forward as set forth above or redirect Seneca Nation of Indians to this article?--Dtwarren 16:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I find it interesting that the greatest contributor (in total submissions, not verifiable content) to this page did not even think to recognize that there is the Seneca people as well as Seneca governments. As a Seneca, I would appreciate it if the above discussant (Mr. Daniel T Warren) was barred from editing any Seneca Nation or Seneca people pages in the future. Why? Because of his stated desired to eradicate the Seneca Nation (do not believe me, go to the UCE home page and look for op-eds by Mr. Daniel T Warren). As a Seneca, I find it abusive and offensive that UCE members consistently and mercilessly input anti-Indian rhetoric and perspectives on Indian pages. Is the Wikipedia community responsible for the submissions of individuals that seek to eliminate the very thing that they are defining and describing? Scuggy 16:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kinzua Dam

This page needs a mention of Kinzua Dam. 165.189.91.148 21:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent point. The reason why I began editing was to insert information about the impacts of Kinzua Dam construction on the Seneca people at Allegany (if you look, I attempted to edit the Kinzua page but my zeal did not match my Wiki skills yet). I would be happy to share this information; however, I will wait for the Wikipedia community to address the presence of anti-Indian leaders editing Indian pages prior to any future content submissions. Scuggy 17:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oklahoma Project

The Seneca Nation does not have any connection to Oklahoma. See [1]

Well not exactly. The court merely validated the view that the Mingoean descendants were not under control of the Six Nations at the time the treaty in question was negotiated therefore they could not participate in the lawsuit. Wouldn't it be be more accurate to say that the Seneca Nation not longer has any current connection to Oklahoma? Just a thought.

Anyhow, I did run into reference(s) to Tyoga Native Americans in the West during a recent Google search. These references include: hiking in Michigan, an historical pathway in Michigan, and a campground in Michigan. I don't have time to do any more research on the matter but perhaps someone else might. JimScott 16:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should we include these references also ?

There were also many links to contemperanious reports from the day, such as this Journals of the Military Expedition of Major General John Sullivan against the Six Nations of Indians in 1779 (tho to be honest some of the entries brought me to tears); and books on that period, such as this book about George Washington. And last, but not least, there is a Tyoga Atlatl group. JimScott 16:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)