Talk:Second War of Schleswig

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Contents 1 Language usage figures 2 WP:MILHIST Assessment 3 Casualty rates needs checking 4 Timeline 5 Reason for abandoning Holstein 6 Article style 7 Constitutional crisis

[edit] Language usage figures

Fascinating Article but how do i submit it for cleanup? It really needs it! The last 4 paragrpahs could be merged into one, or at least be more concise... :) other than that...?

Never heard that Schleswig had a Danish majority; that was regionally the case for Northern Schleswig (the area that opted for Denmark in 1919 but even then the towns Åbenrå, Sønderborg, Tinglev and Tønder had opted for Germany) but not for the southern part.

Considering the (admittedly a bit complicated) history of the duchy there is no real point of talking of "reincorporation" of Schleswig into Denmark. --Kipala 13:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

To reply to the second issue first; What I meant with "reincorporation" is that the Duchy was not subject to laws passed by the Danish parliament, so I am thinking of in the context of the Danish Consitution. If you have a better term, I'm all ears. Regarding your first point; the language "border" between Danish and German was during the Middle Ages located near Dannevirke and the similar wall in the south of Schwansen (I can't remember the name at the moment. Korte Kovirke ???), so in Denmark this would be considered the original border between Danish and German settlement. The change of colloquial language in southern Schleswig began already before the rise of nationalism, but accellerated during the early nineteenth century. The language of Schwansen changed to German during the eighteenth century. During the early nineteenth century, the language of Angeln changed as well, and by 1864, the transfer in this region must have been mostly complete. However, the maps I've seen of the area from the late 1830s still show parts of northern Angeln marked as "mixed". The language of central southern Schleswig (in Danish: Midtsletten) changed later than the rest, but the transfer was probably complete around the 1890s - c. 1900. The language border didn't become identical to the modern border before the 1930s-40s when it changed in a few settlements west of Frøslev.

The loyalties of most of the people in southern Schleswig had become pro-German around the 1840s but I've always heard that the venacular catched up slower. By 1864, the towns in Northern Schleswig were (all in all) mixed but with a Danish majority (not Tønder, naturally). AFAIK this was the case in both Aabenraa, Haderslev and Sønderborg. Flensburg seems to have been devided more evenly, both linguistically and according to loyalties. But if the election of 1867 is any guide, it voted predominantly Danish in that election (so did Hanved / Handewitt, btw.). From an "ethnic" point of view, the matter is pretty straightforward since the language changed without any massive influx of people from e.g. Holstein. But I agree, that the situation is a bit more complex if we go by language. Hmm, do you know of any good compilation of census results? Valentinian ^(talk) 14:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Update: I've gone through a description of Denmark from 1862 (August Baggesen (1862), Den danske Stat, Copenhagen: C.A. Reitzel). Pages 140-141 describe the population of the population of the different provinces. Baggesen lists the population of the Duchy of Schleswig thus:

• 134,000 lived in a region in which Danish is both used in churches and schools
• 84,000 lived in a mixed region
• 192,000 lived in a region in which German is used in both churches and schools (including 63,000 Frisians).

- - - - -
= 410,000 (total). (409,907, of these 72,374 lived in towns, p. 162.)

Unfortunately, Baggesen doesn't break down the numbers from the mixed zone (probably because the data were either not available or because an unknown portion of these data had been tampered with (e.g. the priest in Bov seems to have reported in 1840 that the ratio for Danish and German in his parish is 1:64 in favour of German (the correct figure would have been 90%+ for Danish. I just came across this one scanning through Claus Eskildsen's Grænselære. Eskildsen's book is not a source I'd normally rely on but this example looks kosher. A similar example from Nørre Haksted is even worse.) I'll try to dig deeper into this issue when I get the time, but from an "ethnic" point of view, the Danish roots of the vast majority of the province is beyond doubt. If there'd been a massive immigration of Holsteiners to Schleswig, it would have been recorded in Danish history books, but they don't mention any migrations. I'll rewrite the paragraph and look for a more conclusive source. Valentinian ^(talk) 21:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It is all correct what you describe here, but have in mind that there was no link between ethnical feeling and language, something that makes the Slesvig conflict very complex. A few spoke German and opted for Denmark, many spoke Danish and preferred a German Schleswigholstein. Some were nationally indifferent or had sympathies for both sides, though this group has always been overshadowed by the others.

Also, I think this article should focus on the war, not everything else. Maybe another article should be dedicated to the conflict in general terms, describing the ethnical, linguistic, historical, political point of views, as well as analysing background reasons of military, European power-balance, constitional etc. nature.

About your calculation of how many people lived in areas with German and Danish curch and school language, respectively: This might be the reason why there were two opinions about what was the 'majority' language in Slesvig. If you count citizens with German school and church language, German would be in majority. If you count citizens who spoke Danish as mother tongue, Danish would be in majority. The peasantry were not asked or allowed to choose, German was school and church language in the southern half, and Danish in the northern. Moreover, German was administration and judiciary language in all of Slesvig. With the "language rescripts" of 1851, the Danish government forced a change to Danish school and mixed German/Danish church language in the still Danish-speaking areas in Central Slesvig, but also in some areas where only the oldest generation spoke Danish, and in some areas where Danish had practically died out. This only created anger in areas where people were used to German as the 'holy language' and Danish had a low social status (they were not used to Standard Danish either, since the South Jutland dialect is rather different).

I think the factual information in Claus Eskildsen's book is reliable enough, it is his way of reasoning that is a problem. But remember, he wrote it during WW II and his aim was to refute nazi views with their own way of 'volkstum' reasoning. So it focuses a lot on use of clogs, agricultural tools, last names, and even blue vs. brown eyes. I don't think he was a racist himself, though. --Sasper 23:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

We don't disagree at all and I can easily agree with your observations. Language, loyalties and ethnicity often didn't correspond and the result was one giant mess. I'm afraid Lord Palmerston was all too right on his observation that this region can drive people nuts. :) I own a copy of Baggesen's "Den Danske Stat" from 1840 (before the worst mess started) and I am pretty sure both this and "Hof- og Statskalenderen" from around the same time has more information. If you don't know it already, I can warmly recommend Baggesen's description of Denmark. I haven't seen any other good descriptions of the entire Helstat written before the two wars. I'll try to check these books for better figures one of the coming days. Btw, the first edition of Eskildsen's book was published in 1936, so slightly before the war. However, I prefer not to use him as a source if it can be avoided, for the exact reason you cite above. I agree that it is unlikely that he invented his actual figures, but his line of thought is rather problematic. Regards. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 23:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your correction about Eskildsen's book. Baggesen's description of Denmark sounds most interesting, I'll look out for that book. --Sasper 08:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:MILHIST Assessment

Needs references. LordAmeth 20:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualty rates needs checking

I'm somewhat puzzled by the casualty figures added today. The page quoted [1] mentions Danish losses of almost 3,000 dead, wounded and captured just in the battle of Als (Kampen om øen havde kostet den danske hær næsten 3000 mand i døde, sårede og tilfangetagne.) and a similar figure for the fighting at Dybbøl as almost 5,000 (De danske tab var næsten 5000 mand i døde, sårede og tilfangetagne. De preussiske tab var omkring 1200 mand.) Do anybody have some good references for such figures? Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 22:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

Anthony Appleyard, please note that "Schleswig-Holstein" didn't exist yet, only Schleswig and Holstein. I think it is a good idea to use the present tense in the timeline, but there is still some past tense left. Maybe we should move the timeline should be a separate article? Many articles use such a solution so the main article won't be too long. --Sasper 16:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reason for abandoning Holstein

• Removed comment that might have been contemporary but was far from neutral. Denmark followed a decision from the German Confederation of which Holstein was a member. 16:01, 21 January 2007 User:Valentinian.

The text is:-

This decision [to abandon Holstein] caused adverse comment among 1. Regiment who garrisoned Rendsburg: "The units who garrisoned Holstein still held this duchy [= Holstein], but the Danish government decided to run away with the sword in its sheath."[2]

• But the remark was made, and likely reflects public or rank-and-file army opinion at the time. The reason why Denmark decided to pull out of Holstein: was this to please the German Confederation, or was it because Denmark decided that keeping its army so far out was too much military risk? Anthony Appleyard 16:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) A partisan statement like "the Danish government decided to run away with the sword in its sheath" is grossly insulting against Denmark (violating WP:NPOV. It is also misleading since it is anything but representative of the considerations of the Danish cabinet. Just for the record; if the statement had been a pro-German comment smearing "Hannemann" or a pro-Danish comment by Grundtvig about "vildtyskere" that would also have violated NPOV. The truth is a lot more complicated that this particular soldier's very limited knowledge about the world around him. He would probably have preferred to stay in Rendsburg (which was considered part of Holstein) or perhaps fight on the border in Lauenburg. Fair enough but fighting on the border between Holstein and Mecklenburg would have meant his own death and the destruction of the Danish army since the terrain is impossible to defend, in particular against a larger and better-equipped enemy, and there were very good diplomatic reasons for abandoning Rendsburg rather than violating the instructions from the German Confederation: the Danish-ruled duchies of Holstein and Lauenburg were members of the German Confederation and the governments of Holstein and Lauenburg (both personified in the Danish monarch) were obliged to follow Confederate decisions. A member that violated Confederate decisions would effectively declare war against all other members, and had a Danish monarch done so, there can be little doubt that this would have been the diplomatic result. The Danish cabinet tried to avoid war - with a poor result - but fighting an invader south of the Dannevirke was never suggested for both military and diplomatic reasons. Hans Baggesen's military description of the Danish monarchy from 1840 ("Den danske Stat") concludes that the frontier with Mecklenburg is impossible to defend and that the first actual line of defence is the Dannevirke, although Rendsburg would have been able to resist an actual siege. This last option was not available here for the reasons described above. Had the Danish army stayed on Holsteinish territory, Denmark would not only have declared war on the German Confederacy but also allowed its own army to be destroyed. The Danish soldier's comment is interesting but it is not representative for the considerations of the Danish cabinet. A Danish army unit was angry, yes, but that must be described in neutral terms. Otherwise, it will violate NPOV. If you read Danish, I can strongly recommend the rather unpartisan description in "Dansk Udenrigspolitiks Historie", vol. III.

When war came, it was because Otto von Bismarck presented Denmark with an ultimatum and later sent a Prussian army across the Eider into Schleswig, which was clearly outside of the powers of the German Confederacy given that Denmark and Schleswig were not members of this organization. This consideration is also the most likely reason why Bismarck declared war on Denmark in the name of Prussia, not in the name of the German Confederation. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 17:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article style

The prose of the war's proceedings is difficult to follow in its current state, as it is a mix of timeline and paragraph form (compare to Crimean War, for instance). The detailed timeline could possibly be moved to Timeline of the Second War of Schleswig, although that would probably be a content fork. If the battles are important enough to describe in detail, separate articles should be created for them. Additionally, descriptions of many of the battles are taken directly from a copyrighted external link and should be removed. Olessi 18:02, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constitutional crisis

I notice that this section has been made very short. Maybe some of these details I added in November may be re-added to the article?

The adoption of the Constitution of Denmark in 1849 complicated matters further as many Danes wished for the new democratic constitution to apply for all Danes, including in the Danes in Schleswig. The constitutions of Holstein and Schleswig were dominated by the Estates system, giving more power to the most affluent members of society, with the result that both Schleswig and Holstein were politically dominated by a predominantly German class of landowners. Thus more systems of government co-existed within the same state: democracy in Denmark, and absolutism in Schleswig and Holstein. The three units were governed by one cabinet, consisting of liberal ministers of Denmark who urged for economical and social reforms, and conservative ministers of the Holstein nobility who opposed political reform. This caused a deadlock for practical lawmaking. Moreover, Danish opponents of this so-called Unitary State (Helstaten) feared that Holstein's presence in the government and, at the same time, membership of the German Confederation would lead to increased German interference with Schleswig, or even into purely Danish affairs. In Copenhagen, the Palace and most of the administration supported a strict adherence to the status quo. Same applied to foreign powers such as Great Britain, France and Russia, who would not accept a weakened Denmark in favour of Germany, nor that Prussia acquired Holstein with the important naval harbour of Kiel or controlled the entrance to the Baltic.

Now, the point which I maybe forgot to mention above: Denmark wanted to let go of Holstein, and they chose this moment for it. But the German powers and the German movement in Schleswig didn't want Denmark to let go of Holstein if it meant Denmark would keep Schleswig.

The analysis stems from a little article by J.P. Noack, historian and Keeper of the Public Records of Denmark,Grundlove er ikke Gratis (Constitutions are not for free). It was written for the 150th anniversary of the Danish constitution in 1999, and it adds a very important dimension. Causes of the war such as nationalism and the succession issue are well-heard of, but they don't explain why the war actually broke out at this time. --Sasper 08:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)